Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles

 

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Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Mar 20, 2012, 4:16 PM
Post #1 of 67 (11046 views)
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URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles Can't Post

Apache suit owners,

Today in testing, we've found that the pull strength with the auxiliary handles we've shipped out recently on our Apache model wingsuit can be higher than the TSO standard.

We recommend you NOT use them.


Tony
Tonysuits


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Mar 20, 2012, 4:21 PM
Post #2 of 67 (10956 views)
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

What kind of Apache? What kind of handles?


Tony-tonysuits  (D 1460)

Mar 20, 2012, 4:45 PM
Post #3 of 67 (10938 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

they are a thumb loop on the outside of the suit, attaches to the cables of the reserve and cutaway,


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Mar 21, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #4 of 67 (10748 views)
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

The following from DZO John Hamilton:



We recently had two jumpers show up at Skydive Elsinore with Tony Suits new Apache Wing. The suits came with auxiliary handles (Thumb loops) which attached to both the cutaway and reserve cables and were routed through slits made in the jumpsuit. This was designed as Tony Suits new Apache Wing-suit actually covered access to both the cutaway and reserve handles.


This obviously posed concerns as it could of been a violation of the TSO testing which each rig manufacturer has to go through with the modification and usage of the Reserve Parachute.



When we pull tested the equipment, we found that the pull test resulted in forces exceeding the TSO testing standards of 22 pounds. Upon contacting Tony Uruagallo of Tony Suits and shared this information, he immediately conducted further testing and found the same results when the thumb loop were attached and issued the following statement:



Apache suit owners,



Today in testing, we've found that the pull strength with the auxiliary handles we've shipped out recently on our Apache model wing suit can be higher than the TSO standard.



We recommend you NOT use them.





Tony

Tonysuits



Fellow DZO's, please be on the lookout for anyone jumping Apache Wing Suits with the usage of Auxiliary Handles (Thumb loops). There can be mod's done on the Apache Wing-suits from the manufacturer or qualified rigger which places the handles in their original configuration and accessible to the outside of the Wing-suit


Teigen  (B License)

Mar 21, 2012, 6:12 PM
Post #5 of 67 (10703 views)
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Re: [Tony-tonysuits] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Shouldn't these kind of features be tested under different circumstances and configurations and be proven 100% reliable BEFORE the product goes on sale?


(This post was edited by Teigen on Mar 21, 2012, 6:12 PM)










diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 21, 2012, 8:04 PM
Post #10 of 67 (10608 views)
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Re: [Teigen] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Shouldn't these kind of features be tested under different circumstances and configurations and be proven 100% reliable BEFORE the product goes on sale?

Maybe people should have tried to use the product in methods not originally intended. It was always designed as a BASE suit.




normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 22, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #12 of 67 (10499 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe young up-jumpers need more guidance in their gear selection due to a lack of knowledge.

I firmly believe this needs to be made aware more direct to EVERY jumper. TS should notify USPA and all forms of jumper information via the industry publications and parent governing bodies worldwide.

If someone burns in this way ...
Unsure


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 22, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #13 of 67 (10464 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

If it was designed for BASE, why the need for the handles THAT COME WITH IT TO USE FOR SKYDIVING???
CrazyCrazyCrazy


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Mar 22, 2012, 10:53 AM
Post #14 of 67 (10462 views)
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Any idea how many (factory) modified Apaches are in the field? Presumably TS has contact details for every customer with modified suits and has contacted them personally? Still, they should contact the NGBs and publicatons as you say. Nothing to stop people contacting their own NGBs as well.

The BPA has been made aware of the issue and the info should have been disseminated down to all DZs by now.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 22, 2012, 10:58 AM
Post #15 of 67 (10454 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

Presumably?
You good with that?

I give.

I don't give a shit.
I don't jump those damn things anyway.

carry on.

I'll stop worrying about people surviving this sport.
This damn place doesn't care anyway.


jakee  (C License)

Mar 22, 2012, 12:17 PM
Post #16 of 67 (10412 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Shouldn't these kind of features be tested under different circumstances and configurations and be proven 100% reliable BEFORE the product goes on sale?

Maybe people should have tried to use the product in methods not originally intended. It was always originally designed as a BASE suit.

If Tony had stuck to his guns and kept it as a BASE only suit, this wouldn't be an issue. As soon as you start offering factory mods to let customers skydive it, you can't say it wasn't intended for skydiving.

And if you design those mods, you should probably do some testing on them before you release them.Wink


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Mar 22, 2012, 12:41 PM
Post #17 of 67 (10392 views)
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If it was designed for BASE, why the need for the handles THAT COME WITH IT TO USE FOR SKYDIVING???
CrazyCrazyCrazy


Whilst designed for very experienced Wingsuit pilots, surely one would still be advised to explore the flight envelope of a new suit with as much altitude as possible i.e. from a plane, rather than from a fixed object.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Mar 22, 2012, 12:45 PM
Post #18 of 67 (10388 views)
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Presumably?
You good with that?

I give.

I don't give a shit.
I don't jump those damn things anyway.

carry on.

I'll stop worrying about people surviving this sport.
This damn place doesn't care anyway.

"Presumably" is a polite British way of suggesting that is one of the things that should be done.

No, I'm not good with it, which is why I forwarded the details to my NGB to ensure it was disseminated,even with the small chance there are modified suits in the UK and the people jumping them aren't intelligent enough to realise what a bad idea they are in their current configuration.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 22, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #19 of 67 (10384 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

nice. Simply don this death suit and we'll teach you about BASE.

This sure is one fucked up sport.
Unsure


splat123  (C License)

Mar 22, 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #20 of 67 (10377 views)
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Re: [jakee] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't base, but would'nt it be a really bad idea to test jump a new suit in the base enviroment ? The base jumpers I've met do lots of practice jumps from planes with new suits.


tunnelfly

Mar 22, 2012, 1:10 PM
Post #21 of 67 (10370 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whilst designed for very experienced Wingsuit pilots, surely one would still be advised to explore the flight envelope of a new suit with as much altitude as possible i.e. from a plane, rather than from a fixed object.

This was exactly the reason why these two guys showed up at Skydive Elsinore.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Mar 22, 2012, 1:35 PM
Post #22 of 67 (10350 views)
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Re: [normiss] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If it was designed for BASE, why the need for the handles THAT COME WITH IT TO USE FOR SKYDIVING???
CrazyCrazyCrazy

Oh, and some BASE rigs have cutaways.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 22, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #23 of 67 (10331 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

If you can pull the handles anyway.....
Tongue


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Mar 22, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #24 of 67 (10286 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

I know this is unlikely to occur but wouldn't the best solution be to let BASE jumpers jump their BASE gear on these skydives?


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 22, 2012, 8:25 PM
Post #25 of 67 (10248 views)
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Re: [johnmatrix] URGENT....Apache owners, discontinue use of new handles [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
I know this is unlikely to occur but wouldn't the best solution be to let BASE jumpers jump their BASE gear on these skydives?


Perhaps you should study FAR Part 105 Section 43


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