Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Dropped toggle - recovery procedure?

 


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 15, 2012, 9:00 PM
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Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? Can't Post

"What do you do if you drop a toggle as you are about to flare?"

I have never heard any discussion about contingency plans for that issue (although I haven't been to any canopy control classes). So I'm curious what comes to peoples' minds or what they have practiced in the past.

Clearly it is a situation best avoided in the first place through good procedures, so that for example the toggle doesn't come out of your hand when transitioning from front risers or rear risers.

I've got my own ideas, which I put into place one time when I dropped a toggle. It's not like the ideas are all that difficult to figure out, but I'd like to see what others think before offering a suggestion.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Mar 15, 2012, 9:21 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

just flare with one toggle whats the worst that can happen Tongue

ok now serious answer. On my canopy (velo 84) if I am at toggle flair time and i drop a toggle, i just flair with the rear riser and a toggle. I have done this intentionally specifically in-case of this scenario. However I "hook" my hand (palm down) when I flare so the odds of dropping a toggle are pretty low.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 15, 2012, 10:00 PM
Post #3 of 16 (2694 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i just flair with the rear riser and a toggle.

Clearly a good answer, and one that can apply in many cases. Flare with the toggle, not too abruptly, so that one can try to follow through on the other riser to stay level or nearly so.

I was mentally focusing on a worse sub-set of the possible dropped toggle situations, where the toggle is lost as one lets go of a riser, so that one is faced with having nothing in that hand at all. .


Skyper

Mar 16, 2012, 3:51 AM
Post #4 of 16 (2633 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

why wouldn't you put your hands through the toggles all the way to the wrist so the chance of dropping the toggle are significantly reduced? I don't say I'm doing it, but I've heard from some ppl always use toggles in this way.


lowapproach  (C 38363)

Mar 16, 2012, 7:06 AM
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Re: [Skyper] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

This could be bad news in a cutaway. Potentially you could not get your hands out of the toggles then be attached to the thing you are trying to get rid of.


mchamp  (D 32129)

Mar 16, 2012, 7:27 AM
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Re: [lowapproach] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Majority of the time you don't have your hands through the toggles anyway prior to cutting away (opening line twist etc)

Other scenario's you are correct once you are flying your canopy and perhaps have a mid collision bad bad news.

OTOH I'm quite sure the 2nd poster was saying "hooking" as "in his hands palms down" NOT going to the wrist. I personally would say that flying with the toggles till your wrist is scary, dangerous and not smart at all. How would you cutaway in the event of a collision or how do you fly full flight without having the toggles come off?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 16, 2012, 7:54 AM
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Re: [Skyper] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
why wouldn't you put your hands through the toggles all the way to the wrist

As others mentioned, you can't let go of the toggle easily if you need to.

Another aspect, and this might not apply to everyone, but I use my hands to 'fine tune' my togggle inputs. My arms to the bulk of the work, but I use the position of my wrist to make little 'adjustments' by moving my hands up or down. If the toggle was around my wrist, I lose that entire 'flight control'.

The real solution is to use a 'hybrid' grip where you combine a finger grip with wrapping the toggle around your hand. One or the other leaves room for the toggle to slip, or for your primary retention method to fail, using both provides a redundant system.

I loop the toggle around my hand, and then make 'half' of a fist and hold the toggle with my pinky and ring-finger. This leaves my first and middle figners open for grabbing the dive loops/rear risers, and let's me grab or drop them without changing anything about he way I'm holding the toggle.



This, of course, is only for people using dive loop or rear risers on landing. Everyone else should loop the toggle over their hand. and grasp it with all four fingers to make sure it's stays put.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 17, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

<sarcasm>
People don't drop toggles, didn't you know that?</sarcasm>

It's certainly worthy of a conversation. I dropped/released/let go of a toggle on a flare and it cost everything from my L5 to my ACL/PCL.
It happened so fast at the flare.
*maybe* I could have gotten a rear riser had I been more adept and fast thinking. Since my accident, it's a practice to loop my palms through and pass the control line between my index and middle finger. Perhaps had I thought about it in advance of that jump, or been trained to deal with it, the outcome might have been different.
What are your suggestions?


(This post was edited by DSE on Mar 17, 2012, 12:39 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 17, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Re: [DSE] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your crash is certainly a well known nasty one, DSE. A reminder to people that bad things can happen even "just" doing a front riser 90.

For my own dropped toggle experience, my hand was already off the rear riser, so it would be hard to find again quickly. I had already planed out on rear risers, so I didn't have much time, but on the other hand at least I was already low & fairly level & not simply in a high speed dive at the ground.

I didn't try to grab any particular thing down low, like finding the toggle or the riser again.

I reached high, sweeping an open hand forwards, because then it should connect with SOMETHING relating to the rear riser's lines.

Whether by luck or good hand placement, my hand hit the steering line above the guide ring. Hooking my fingers, one finger caught the brake line securely, and with that I pulled hard out and down.

Trying to get a good grip on something to pull straight down would be harder and take more time, but an outward and downward pull doesn't need a grip.

It was a bit of a skidding landing, but hauling on the brake line above the brake ring was enough to stay reasonably level and unhurt on the little Cobalt 75 at 2.3 loading.

The technique might not work well if say you were able to catch only the very outer most C line.

But other than that, I figure if you don't have the time to re-grab exactly what you want, sweep and hook your hand onto something rear-riser related to yank out and down on, so you aren't doing a totally one-sided flare.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Mar 17, 2012, 12:28 PM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 19, 2012, 7:00 AM
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Re: [DSE] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Since my accident, it's a practice to loop my palms through and pass the control line between my index and middle finger. Perhaps had I thought about it in advance of that jump, or been trained to deal with it, the outcome might have been different.
What are your suggestions?

Exactly that technique, especially low, especially at flare time. (No, I don't swoop.) Yes, it forces the brakes to always be in play, but I'm happy with the benefit gained in the tradeoff. When I see people use their fingertips to flare, with open palms, I cringe a bit.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Mar 19, 2012, 7:02 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 19, 2012, 10:18 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched what some of the best swoopers I know do, and have copied them.

I stick all four fingers into each loop and make a loose fist. If I need to pull on a dive loop or rear risers, I'll use my index and middle finger to grab, keeping my loops locked into my fist with my two other fingers. So far, so good. Smile


rwieder  (C 32349)

Mar 20, 2012, 4:04 PM
Post #12 of 16 (1983 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"What do you do if you drop a toggle as you are about to flare?"

After 20 years of skydiving, I can't believe your asking this question. If you don't know how to handle a dropped toggle maybe you should hang it up. Not being sarcastic, just sensable.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 20, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #13 of 16 (1974 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well then ... what are your beliefs or procedures for dropped toggles, or what teachings have you seen?

I've never heard anything taught about it, never seen anything in manuals, can't recall it being discussed on dz before (other than how to hold toggles so it doesn't happen in the first place). I haven't, however, been to all of the various well known canopy control courses to see if they teach something.

A test pilot could ask about handling an engine failure; that wouldn't imply he has no knowledge about the matter.

I'm here to learn too.


rwieder  (C 32349)

Mar 20, 2012, 4:51 PM
Post #14 of 16 (1970 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well then ... what are your beliefs or procedures for dropped toggles, or what teachings have you seen?

Um....Rear Risers?? Wink Nothing radical or you'll colapse your canopy, but you already knew that right? Personally I'm one anal SOAB, I've NEVER dropped a toggle. Cool


format  (B 15348)

Mar 20, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #15 of 16 (1954 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I watched what some of the best swoopers I know do, and have copied them.

I stick all four fingers into each loop and make a loose fist. If I need to pull on a dive loop or rear risers, I'll use my index and middle finger to grab, keeping my loops locked into my fist with my two other fingers. So far, so good. Smile

... is one great example how not to lose toggle in flight.

I guess, if, somehow, you drop it anyway
you reach for any kind of control
and manage it, depending on your skill and previous practice...


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Mar 21, 2012, 3:14 AM
Post #16 of 16 (1912 views)
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Re: [format] Dropped toggle - recovery procedure? [In reply to] Can't Post

Like a few others, when this happened to me I was able to grab a rear riser and flare on one riser and one toggle.

Had it happened earlier, I'd prefer to have grabbed two rears, but I jump a relatively predictable canopy so it was OK.

Now I try and hold my toggles in a way that makes them harder to drop.



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