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katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ??

 

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hhhyyrt

Mar 6, 2012, 3:58 AM
Post #1 of 57 (3857 views)
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katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? Can't Post

my dads trying to decide on weather to get a katana 120 or a crossfire 2 119 he wants the canopy for hp landings. hes 42 yrs of age and has a few old injurys and doesnt want to run the landings out as hes a bit of a bad back. he likes his crossfire 139 because he only has to take a couple of steps in nill wind days at the end of his flair he is worried that he will have to run it out on the katana 120 because he has heard that the katanas bottom end flair isnt as good as the crossfire. can any body that owns a katana 120 please comment on my post his WL would be 1.8


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 6, 2012, 4:42 AM
Post #2 of 57 (3834 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
hes 42 yrs of age and has a few old injurys and doesnt want to run the landings out as hes a bit of a bad back.

In that case, he should avoid a 120 anything, and really not get involved in HP landings. Unless you're VERY good at it, it's almost impossible to avoid running, sliding across the ground, ot taking some lumps and bumps when you push a canopies performance toward the upper end.


DaVinciflies

Mar 6, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #3 of 57 (3819 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
he wants the canopy for hp landings.
In reply to:
hes 42 yrs of age and has a few old injurys and doesnt want to run the landings out as hes a bit of a bad back.
In reply to:
his WL would be 1.8

These things don't add up. I think there is some misunderstanding going on somewhere here. If he wants to jump these canopies in low/nil or downwind conditions there will be some running/sliding involved.

I load my Katana 120 at 1.75.


piisfish

Mar 6, 2012, 5:16 AM
Post #4 of 57 (3811 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
These things don't add up.
I don't generally think like DaVinci, but he is very correct on that one.
Maybe he should go with a 139 Safire2. Or bigger.
Or hit the pond, so he doesn't have to run.Angelic


Fast  (D 28237)

Mar 6, 2012, 8:54 AM
Post #5 of 57 (3751 views)
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Re: [davelepka] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
hes 42 yrs of age and has a few old injurys and doesnt want to run the landings out as hes a bit of a bad back.

In that case, he should avoid a 120 anything, and really not get involved in HP landings. Unless you're VERY good at it, it's almost impossible to avoid running, sliding across the ground, ot taking some lumps and bumps when you push a canopies performance toward the upper end.

Agreed


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 6, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #6 of 57 (3742 views)
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Re: [Fast] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

for that matter, these two canopies have very different design and performance goals, narrowing it down to those two seems to mean he doesn't yet know what type of flight and landings he's really looking for yet

A lot more thought is needed on his selection still

actually,,,,,it sounds like he likes his current wing just fine

nothing's wrong with a 1.5-1.6 loading. nothing at all.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 6, 2012, 9:05 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 6, 2012, 10:59 AM
Post #7 of 57 (3704 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Both are good canopies. The Safire will get him back a little better from bad spots (reduction in off-field landiings.) He will have to run out both. I load my Crossfire2 at about 1.9 to 1 and I have to either run or slide landings in no wind. It takes 8-10kts of wind before I can "walk it out."

>he likes his crossfire 139 because he only has to take a couple of steps in nill wind
>days at the end of his flair

Sounds like a Crossfire2 139 is a very good choice for him, then.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 6, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #8 of 57 (3675 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
at the end of his flair

it's like a flare, but with more attitude

or at least buttons


hhhyyrt

Mar 6, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #9 of 57 (3652 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

can u please tellme what the two diferent preformance goals are, there both ment for turf surfing. even in light downwinders he doesnt have to run too hard.


hhhyyrt

Mar 6, 2012, 2:02 PM
Post #10 of 57 (3649 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry i replyed to the wrong post :/


5.samadhi

Mar 6, 2012, 3:33 PM
Post #11 of 57 (3622 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am also curious to hear rehmwa expound on the different performance goals between katana and crossfire2. thought they were both pretty high performance canopies with relatively long recovery arcs designed for swooping.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Mar 6, 2012, 4:57 PM
Post #12 of 57 (3599 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
my dads trying to decide on weather to get a katana 120 or a crossfire 2 119 he wants the canopy for hp landings. hes 42 yrs of age and has a few old injurys and doesnt want to run the landings out as hes a bit of a bad back.

That's just crazy talk! 42 is too old to even think about HP landings.
Wink

Seriously, if your old man really has such concerns, downsizing -- and skipping 1 size in the process -- is not a safe plan.


virgin-burner

Mar 6, 2012, 7:17 PM
Post #13 of 57 (3560 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
he wants the canopy for hp landings.
In reply to:
hes 42 yrs of age and has a few old injurys and doesnt want to run the landings out as hes a bit of a bad back.
In reply to:
his WL would be 1.8

These things don't add up. I think there is some misunderstanding going on somewhere here. If he wants to jump these canopies in low/nil or downwind conditions there will be some running/sliding involved.

I load my Katana 120 at 1.75.

so, how many 100's of jumps did you make since "you learned your lesson" since august last year, DocPop!?


stayhigh  (F 111)

Mar 6, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #14 of 57 (3546 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Katana has way better bottom end flair vs crossfire.

all canopies slows down to about the same speed.

even if i have to come straight in without any front riser input I much rather fly katana or crossfire vs sabre2 or safire 2.


daleskydive  (E License)

Mar 6, 2012, 9:55 PM
Post #15 of 57 (3519 views)
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Re: [hhhyyrt] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im the 42 yo Dad and think that I should clear the running thing up. I dont mind a VERY fast jog. Its running flat out that I want to avoid. I have a Xfire 2 139 WL 1.6 which I enjoy landing in no wind,crosswind. I have had coaching to extend the distance of my turfsurfing but I want a bit more.After reading the comments I think I might be looking at either an Xfire 129 or katana 135.So people what would be the choice out of those two ?


daleskydive  (E License)

Mar 6, 2012, 10:03 PM
Post #16 of 57 (3514 views)
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Re: [daleskydive] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im leaning toward the katana 135 after reading the comments. I maybe wrong but think PD had some problems with the openings on the 135 and ended up putting a band of mesh running chord wise either side of the slider. Does anyone know someone that has a 135 and know that they are happy with the canopy.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Mar 6, 2012, 11:13 PM
Post #17 of 57 (3493 views)
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Re: [daleskydive] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Im leaning toward the katana 135 after reading the comments. I maybe wrong but think PD had some problems with the openings on the 135 and ended up putting a band of mesh running chord wise either side of the slider. Does anyone know someone that has a 135 and know that they are happy with the canopy.
Hi Dale, why not throw a weight belt on and UP your WL a little and see how you go with that for a while. It's WAY cheaper than a new canopy.


daleskydive  (E License)

Mar 6, 2012, 11:48 PM
Post #18 of 57 (3486 views)
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Re: [Squeak] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice comment, Ill do that with my hop n pops for sure .


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Mar 7, 2012, 8:43 AM
Post #19 of 57 (3406 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am also curious to hear rehmwa expound on the different performance goals between katana and crossfire2. thought they were both pretty high performance canopies with relatively long recovery arcs designed for swooping.

I'm going on various posts from people I respect here. I'm just a hack. But one might talk to a good PD rep and have them explain the diff between the Katana and the Stiletto and why each was designed that way. Lots of searches here too. As I understand it, though, the crossfire is more like a stiletto than a katana. But really experienced guys like AggieD or others will correct me if I'm wrong. (and I'm glad to learn anytime those guys talk).

(I also like to consider the entire flight, including the opening, dynamics in flights, ground hungry vs not, etc etc. not just the last bit of the landing - so maybe this is not the audience that cares on those bits...)

Edit: frankly, I like the recommendation to weighting up on the 139 first. Then I'd just tell him to demo both canopies and decide for himself. Everyone has their own opinions, but in the end, it's up to Dale and his preferences.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Mar 7, 2012, 8:47 AM)


Fast  (D 28237)

Mar 7, 2012, 12:27 PM
Post #20 of 57 (3347 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I am also curious to hear rehmwa expound on the different performance goals between katana and crossfire2. thought they were both pretty high performance canopies with relatively long recovery arcs designed for swooping.

I'm going on various posts from people I respect here. I'm just a hack. But one might talk to a good PD rep and have them explain the diff between the Katana and the Stiletto and why each was designed that way. Lots of searches here too. As I understand it, though, the crossfire is more like a stiletto than a katana. But really experienced guys like AggieD or others will correct me if I'm wrong. (and I'm glad to learn anytime those guys talk).

(I also like to consider the entire flight, including the opening, dynamics in flights, ground hungry vs not, etc etc. not just the last bit of the landing - so maybe this is not the audience that cares on those bits...)

Edit: frankly, I like the recommendation to weighting up on the 139 first. Then I'd just tell him to demo both canopies and decide for himself. Everyone has their own opinions, but in the end, it's up to Dale and his preferences.

I have jumped all these canopies reasonably extensively. I wouldn't really compare a crossfire to a stilleto. The only real comparison is that the crossfire has more of a positive natural recovery than a katana which doesn't really recover that way. But a stilleto is substantially more positive and substantially shorter than a crossfire.

If I was gonna compare a crossfire to anything PD makes it would be the katana, but you're right they are different.


Bryan2  (D 83154)

Mar 7, 2012, 12:56 PM
Post #21 of 57 (3336 views)
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Re: [daleskydive] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I owned a Katana 135, a Crossfire2 119 and jump now a Katana 120. Wingload 2 to 1 with the 120.

My experience: The flarepower of the Katana is a little better then the Crossfire2. In zero wind conditions I can walk/run out the Katana easily, the Crossfire2 mades me run faster.

The Katana is also a hotter canopy, more dive, longer recovery arc. Openings of the Crossfire2 are absolutly best in class, but I like the Katana 120 openings also. The Katana 135 opens more off-heading on me and I had a reserve ride with the 135. I don't know why, but the Katana 120 opens really better then the 135. They have different sliders, so apparently that is for a reason, but did not solve the "problem" entirely.


daleskydive  (E License)

Mar 7, 2012, 4:13 PM
Post #22 of 57 (3282 views)
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Re: [Bryan2] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your comment, you especially and other people have been very helpfull. I now know what I have to do to make a good decision. I will ask to jump a mates xfire 119 and if thats fine,no and cross wind, I know the katana will be better.My DZ is at sea level so Im quietly confident that the katana 120 will be my choice.If I have to go bigger well maybe the xfire 129. Can you tell me what it is that is not quite sorted out with the 135s openings.


DaVinciflies

Mar 7, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #23 of 57 (3270 views)
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Re: [Bryan2] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know why, but the Katana 120 opens really better then the 135.

That was my experience, too, and that of a couple of friends.

Had some funky off heading openings with the 135. Never hard, in fact it was almost the opposite - it was like they took so long to inflate that any asymmetry could lead to significant yaw and a dive/turn.

The story I heard was that during development the larger sizes didn't scale up to well and they tried 20 or more slider solutions to sort the openings out before arriving at the semi-mesh slider. PD released sizes up to and including the 120 initially and then added on 135, 150 and 170 at a later date, IIRC.

Of course, others will say body position!! Cool


virgin-burner

Mar 7, 2012, 8:48 PM
Post #24 of 57 (3239 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

but you're still DocPop, right!?


5.samadhi

Mar 8, 2012, 9:55 AM
Post #25 of 57 (3165 views)
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Re: [daleskydive] katana 120 VS crossfire 2 119 ?? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for your comment, you especially and other people have been very helpfull. I now know what I have to do to make a good decision. I will ask to jump a mates xfire 119 and if thats fine,no and cross wind, I know the katana will be better.My DZ is at sea level so Im quietly confident that the katana 120 will be my choice.If I have to go bigger well maybe the xfire 129. Can you tell me what it is that is not quite sorted out with the 135s openings.

hey dale why are you taking 20 square feet off your current canopy size and going to a 119 when there is an intermediate step made by icarus you could take (129)? Just curious to your thinking, not chastising you or anything I sincerely am just curious how you decided to drop 20 square feet at a time.


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