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Coaching question

 

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bherrick  (B 35091)

Mar 5, 2012, 8:55 PM
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Coaching question Can't Post

I just received my coach rating and was trying to find out if there is a list of guidelines for certain teaching scenarios, for example i was at my home dz when three people came in for re-currency training. 1 guy has 400 jumps but hasnt jumped for 10 yrs and the other 2 were military but only jumped front deployment systems. I would like to be prepared to teach them without missing any important parts. I could go through the SIM and make my own check list but was wanting to know if there a place that already somwhat has this done. As a new coach i would like to be efficient as possible until i get into my memory bank. Any info would be appreciated.


kawisixer01  (C 38984)

Mar 5, 2012, 10:30 PM
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Method specific teaching and recurrency jumps are the realm of an AFFI, not coaches, as far as I know. Though I could be wrong. All I have ever dealt with in coaching is current students on their way to getting their "A".


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 5, 2012, 11:42 PM
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Read the SIM.


5.samadhi

Mar 6, 2012, 4:02 AM
Post #4 of 35 (1771 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe the SIM is ambiguously worded here. It says a skydiver holding an instructional rating can do recurrency jumps....presumably they mean holding a AFF rating, but it seems like it leaves the window open for coaches to do recurrency jumps.

I am on my way to getting a coach rating, and I wouldn't touch those jumpers you listed with a ten-foot pole as a coach! Blush

Leave those guys for the AFFIs.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 4:23 AM
Post #5 of 35 (1764 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I believe the SIM is ambiguously worded here. It says a skydiver holding an instructional rating can do recurrency jumps....presumably they mean holding a AFF rating, but it seems like it leaves the window open for coaches to do recurrency jumps.

I am on my way to getting a coach rating, and I wouldn't touch those jumpers you listed with a ten-foot pole as a coach! Blush

Leave those guys for the AFFIs.

Do you consider a 'coach' rating qualification to be an 'instructor' ?

I don't see any ambiguity here at all, it's an Instructors job to do re-currency jumps..."a skydiver holding an instructional rating" is called an Instructor.


BASE469  (D 14328)

Mar 6, 2012, 5:23 AM
Post #6 of 35 (1748 views)
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

If you look at the begining of the coach course syllabus you will see:

2. A USPA Coach may
e. supervise recurrency jumps with licensed skydivers

3. All student training and recurrency jumps with a USPA
Coach are conducted under the supervision of a current
and appropriately rated USPA Instructor

So, it's not particularly ambiguous. You need to be working with the instructors at your DZ and not formulating your own plan.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Mar 6, 2012, 5:28 AM
Post #7 of 35 (1746 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

We can agree to disagree then. According to the SIM, the coach rating is an instructional rating:

Code:
Section 3-3
A. USPA instructional ratings
USPA issues instructional ratings to each skydiver who qualifies by fulfilling all requirements for the rating being sought. These ratings attest that the holder has not only achieved skydiving
skills but has also demonstrated the techniques needed to teach these skills to others.
1. Ratings are issued at the following levels (from lowest to highest):
a. Coach
b. Instructor
c. Instructor Examiner

I also see no ambiguity here - a coach rating is defined in the SIM to be the lowest level of an instructional rating. Coaches can do recurrency jumps.


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:20 AM
Post #8 of 35 (1723 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

In this example, the coach can do a currency jump with the guy that has 400 jumps provided he has a license. Granted 10 years is a while, so the refresher training will be a review of everything in the FJC and re-train new techniques.

As for the 2 military jumpers, if they were HALO qualified they would need cross training to the hand deployed PC at a minimum. If they were static line qualified (not freefall) then they do the entire FJC, but shorter PLF training Tongue

In these cases IMO should be an instructor (preferably AFF-I) to do the jump, maybe directly supervise a coach on the ground training.


Remember: just cause you could argue that you can, doesn't mean you should. Show good judgement, know your limits, that's sometimes the hardest part - swallowing your pride and passing it to someone more qualified... jumping with a super uncurrent person as a coach can get fucking scary. (trust me, I know)


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:29 AM
Post #9 of 35 (1719 views)
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all re-currency training needs are the same. A jumper who 30 days out of currency is relatively simple. A jumper who has not jumped in 10 years is an entirely different matter. At my DZ, the chief instructor reviews the unusual situations and makes a decision about who will do the re-currency jump (coach or instructor).

My favorite resource for typical re-currency training is the USPA Safety Day Checklist, which can be found on the "member" > "downloads" section of their web site.

I start all re-currency training at the training harness reviewing EPs. I find this to be a very useful diagnostic regarding how much re-teaining a jumper may need in other areas. If they don't know EPs.... They tend to need LOTS of help with other areas too!

I hate doing re-currency jumps with strangers! I will never again do an UN-gripped exit on a re-currency jump with a stranger! One grip on a leg strap until stable is a simple way to be ahead of some of the "fun".


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:30 AM
Post #10 of 35 (1716 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

3. All student training and re currency jumps with a USPA
Coach are conducted under the supervision of a current
and appropriately rated USPA Instructor

In reply to:

Which tells me a Coach is NOT an appropriately rated 'Instructor'.

... Or am I missing something?


~can you break up your cut&paste, it's stretching the text box way out. Wink


BASE469  (D 14328)

Mar 6, 2012, 6:44 AM
Post #11 of 35 (1702 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

It comes down to USPA definition of supervision.

Supervision The general oversight of an activity taking place where the supervisor is readily available for counsel and direction and who is responsible that the activity is satisfactorily completed.

They also have a higher standard known as direct supervision. All coaching duties essentially fall under the 'supervision' category.

Direct supervision 1: The attentive oversight of an activity taking place in the immediate presence of the supervisor, who is personally responsible for the proper conduct of the activity. (USPA definition)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 7:07 AM
Post #12 of 35 (1687 views)
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Re: [BASE469] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Again...if the task is not to be performed without 'instructor supervision' ...then a coach is NOT rated to perform the task ~without said supervision.

Direct or indirect is inconsequential to the discussion here, a coach is not rated to perform a re-currency jump unless they are 'supervised by an appropriately rated instructor'.

So 'Coach' isn't an appropriate rating to do that sans oversight, it's not a 'stand alone' instructor rating...the without supervision is key.

...right?


missbrz  (B License)

Mar 6, 2012, 7:10 AM
Post #13 of 35 (1684 views)
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally wouldn't touch either of those students for their recurrency. IMO the first one who hasn't jumped in 10 years needs to go through part of AFF again. 10 years is a long time & our sport has evolved a bit since then. & as pointed out the others need cross training, which IMO is the job of an AFF-I. I would not attempt any of those jumps, but that's up to you.


However, for your future coaching, I would suggest building a power point if you have access to a computer at the DZ (even if it's your own laptop). I find it helps keep me on track while giving the students something to look at besides my pretty face Wink Building it yourself will help you familiarize yourself with the order and help you figure out what to say for each slide. I find it helps visual learners retain the information better too. Personally I hate when a coach or instructor just sits there & reads off the SIM the whole time. It's really hard for some students to retain the information when its just spouted at them and having a visual reference helps cater to all learning types.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 6, 2012, 7:35 AM
Post #14 of 35 (1674 views)
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I just received my coach rating and was trying to find out if there is a list of guidelines for certain teaching scenarios, for example i was at my home dz when three people came in for re-currency training. 1 guy has 400 jumps but hasnt jumped for 10 yrs and the other 2 were military but only jumped front deployment systems.

Just wondering, were you assigned to work with these jumpers? Was the work to include ground school and the jump itself?

This is an area where the 'book' is a little incomplete. While the SIM seems to indicate that a coach is sufficient for a recurrency jump, both of those examples are close to 'retraining' and not just 'recurrency' and would not be a good place for a coach.

As mentioned, both of those examples are ripe for a harness hold exit, and might require additional actions from the instructor beyond 'observe and report'. In many cases, a cheif instructor or DZO would step in and assign an AFFI to work with these jumpers, but when staff is short or people just go 'by the book', you could have a low time coach go up in either of those sceanarios, and that's not a good thing.

400 jumps 10 years ago just means you have a guy who thinks he knows how to jump, but hasn't been in the air for so long that his body doesn't know that. If the guy is over 50 years old, that's another red flag.

One lesson to learn as a coach or instructor is when to decline a jump and let someone esle do it. It doesn't demonstrate a lacking in your air skills, it demonstrates a surplus of good judgement, and that's way more important than air skills.


BASE469  (D 14328)

Mar 6, 2012, 7:50 AM
Post #15 of 35 (1670 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again...if the task is not to be performed without 'instructor supervision' ...then a coach is NOT rated to perform the task ~without said supervision.

Coaches are not permitted to do anything without being supervised by an instructor. I don't have my IRM with me, and I'm tired of logging onto USPA but it states something to the effect that 'all training is done under the supervision of an appropriately rated instructor.' The IRM makes it quite clear that a coach rating is all that is needed to supervise the recurrency jump freefall. The ground training, always, is supervised by an instructor. This implies that the level of participation by the instructor is at the supervisory level, which, in turn, implies that they are present at the dropzone, able to answer any questions, and are satisfied that the didactic and practical portions of the recurrency training were adequate to the jumpers needs.


Direct or indirect is inconsequential to the discussion here, a coach is not rated to perform a re-currency jump unless they are 'supervised by an appropriately rated instructor'.

So 'Coach' isn't an appropriate rating to do that sans oversight, it's not a 'stand alone' instructor rating...the without supervision is key.

...right?

I am not disagreeing with this statement, the coach rating is not, and has never been, a rating where they operate in a vacuum. It would seem that the disagreement is about the level of oversight needed. I feel comfortable with a coach providing recurrency training without me standing beside him as long as we have spoke about the proposed plan of training, I remain available to answer questions, and I assure myself that they did an adequate job when the retraining session is complete. This pertains to the licensed jumper.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 6, 2012, 8:16 AM
Post #16 of 35 (1651 views)
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Re: [BASE469] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

~ We're in agreement then...

Probably would have just been easier when the OP said: "just received my coach rating and was trying to find out if there is a list of guidelines for certain teaching scenarios..."

To recommend he consult with a supervising instructor on a case by case, somewhat as recommended in the Coach guidelines. WinkCool


bherrick  (B 35091)

Mar 6, 2012, 2:27 PM
Post #17 of 35 (1565 views)
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Re: [BASE469] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info. i think i know where i stand. Oblivious the 3 guys that i listed need more work than just a quick refresher. I understand the best knowledge would be to oversee and get involved with the trainings. Ill start taking notes and devise myself a checklist. Thanks again!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 6, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #18 of 35 (1513 views)
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry about all the thread drift on I vs Coach.

Bottom line:
If you don't 100% know the subject matter you are
going to teach, get someone who does....having a
rating of any sort has nothing to do with that.


IMHO, for your examples:
If they have been using the same equipment that the
had been using, a thorough verbal review and
demonstration repetitions by the jumper

Quiz them to see what they remember. Re-enforce
what is correct, re-teach what is wrong or not
remembered.

For the guys cross-training on new equipment and
such, you may want to turn that over to an Instructor.

"I got 50 jumps! I need a re-currency jump!"

Well, those 50 jumps may have been all static line
with no freefall. That's method-specific traing needs
and it would have to be an AFF Instructor teaching.

Bottom line: If YOU aren't sure of what you are
talking about, the jumper won't either and you really
don't want to put them in the air like that.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 6, 2012, 5:06 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Mar 7, 2012, 3:11 AM
Post #19 of 35 (1454 views)
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Re: [bherrick] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a thread in this forum where a D license holder does a 'recurrency' jump that ends in an AAD fire. That is just food for thought.

As someone who took a long break from the sport, alot has changed in 10 years. Regardless of what the rules say, I would want to sit through an AFF first jump course and go out with at least 1 AFF instructor.


redramdriver  (C License)

Mar 9, 2012, 2:27 PM
Post #20 of 35 (1314 views)
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Re: [kawisixer01] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

+1


curmudgeon

Mar 9, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #21 of 35 (1303 views)
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Re: [redramdriver] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

With what are you agreeing? That recurrency training is method specfic or that it is outside the privileges of a coach rating? I think both have been demonstrated to be false from the quotes from the SIM and IRM. If the military jumpers were HALO qualified they would only need to be retrained on the deployment system. That is basic gear orientation which is part of the generic section of the FJC and not method specific. Surely you are not prepared to argue that the 25 jump HALO school is not the equivalent of an AFF program and that graduates of MFF are incapable of doing coached civilian skydives?

Oh, and to the guy with 100000 skydives, if you run into a military jumper with only s/l jumps....they are going to need more than 'method specific' training...I may be wrong, but I'm unaware of any s/l program that utilizes anything but conventional gear and round canopies. Those jumpers will need a complete FJC....and then the method specific training. I work with these people all the time, just got done training four of them for their first freefall.....so, just sayin'....


redramdriver  (C License)

Mar 9, 2012, 4:06 PM
Post #22 of 35 (1290 views)
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Re: [curmudgeon] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

Re currency training is method specific. Coaches are not allowed to teach anything that is method specific. And AFAIK...a re currency jump is with a person who holds an I not a coach. And, it may need more then one jump...if the person getting recurrent fails. It does happen.


BASE469  (D 14328)

Mar 9, 2012, 4:44 PM
Post #23 of 35 (1286 views)
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Re: [curmudgeon] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with most of what you're saying, but one thing to think about with the HALO guys....they probably don't have an A license so therefore would need to jump with an instructor, and that would be any appropriately rated instructor, not just an AFF/I as so many seem to think, but then they certainly can go with coaches.


Mickochet  (D 26656)

Mar 9, 2012, 7:26 PM
Post #24 of 35 (1264 views)
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Re: [BASE469] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

That is just what I was going to say. Everybody keeps insisting that it be an AFF instructor when in reality it doesn't have to be.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 9, 2012, 9:10 PM
Post #25 of 35 (1251 views)
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Re: [Mickochet] Coaching question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That is just what I was going to say. Everybody keeps insisting that it be an AFF instructor when in reality it doesn't have to be.

I wouldn't say 'everybody'...Wink

I said an appropriately rated instructor.


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