Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
? about running out landings vs sliding

 


5.samadhi

Mar 4, 2012, 4:47 PM
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? about running out landings vs sliding Can't Post

couple questions for more experienced...

I fly a sabre2 150 with ~1.2 wingloading...most of my landings are done with double front riser input let up with plenty of time to naturally recover before the flare.

I have been running out landings lately (mainly when the winds are light). Can I avoid doing this by flaring a little deeper toward the end of my landing to keep converting the forward speed into lift? In other words, is my problem lately with running out as simple as I am not flaring deep enough toward the end of the flare?

And if I cannot avoid running out a landing: is there a line where a person must run out a landing or can I always safely lean back a little and slide it on the soles of my feet? My question is: is there a point when a person simply MUST run out a landing vs sliding in on soles of feet?

thanks! hope everybody had a fun weekend Cool


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Mar 4, 2012, 5:07 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

The short answer is yes and no. running and sliding basically come down to the fact that your canopy is still moving forward with enough speed to warrant running or sliding. Its possible that you are moving fast enough that if you try to run it out you will fall on your face :)

Without ever seeing you fly I would say that you should be able to come to a near complete stop prior to putting your feet down, even on light or no wind days with good technique. I'm not going to attempt to instruct you over the internet, but my advice would be to have someone film your landings and then have a qualified canopy coach debrief with you.


5.samadhi

Mar 4, 2012, 5:19 PM
Post #3 of 11 (2104 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

you give me a good opportunity to clarify my intent. I am not looking for personal critique of my landing obviously. I am looking for theoretical knowledge. so if i still have forward speed theoretically i still have the ability to generate lift by flaring deeper, correct?

unless i am going downwind should I still have lift available to convert by deeper flare?

not looking for canopy coaching on dropzone.com :P


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 4, 2012, 7:16 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

    
You should be flaring your canopy fully on every landing. Provided your steering lines are the correct lenght, you won't stall your canopy be completing the flare, and you should end each landing with your toggles all the way down.

If you're putting your feet down to run before finishing the flare, you're putting your feet down too soon. Keep flying the canopy until it's sinking you into the ground, then put your feet, and even then keep flying the canopy. Even if the canopy cannot support your full weight (like when it's sinking you into the ground) it can still support some of your weight. So you put your feet down and begin to run, but hold the toggles down and finish the flare. As your speed decreases, it becomes easier for you to run without the canopy supporting any of your weight, which is good because the canopy will support less and less as the speed decays.

Sliding on your feet is just another way to transfer some of your weight off the canopy as it loses lift. Remember that stall speed decreases when WL decreases, so if you get some of your weight on your feet, your canopy will keep flying to a slower speed.

The problem with sliding is that it's all 'technique', and unless you have impecible control over your canopy, it's tough to get the slide 'just right'. It wouldn't be hard to catch a foot and twist an ankle, or put them down too hard and have them 'grab' the grass and faceplant you at high speeds. Alondg those same lines, skate shoes are the prefered shoes for sliding, as the soles are generally smooth. Hiking shoes or boots and most running shoes have too much 'tread', and don't like to slide very well.

The techniques for flaring are the same upwind or downwind. You are correct that when going downwind, you may have forward speed but no airspeed for lift, so the consideration is to get on your feet before you reach that point. It won't be a 'tiptoe' landing, it will be a high-speed running landing because you'll be out of airspeed with a good hunk of groundspeed remaining.

Get the idea in your head to complete your flare on every landing. In an emergency situation, no matter how hard you think you're going to hit the ground, get the toggles all the way down (or as far as you can before impact). Always keep flying the canopy until all of your motion has stopped. Even if you're sliding on your ass acorss the grass, keep flying the canopy.


mchamp  (D 32129)

Mar 4, 2012, 8:07 PM
Post #5 of 11 (2043 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

Simple answer, yes. I do 90's and fly my sabre2 at 1.2 and have the softest tippy toe landings while landing into the wind. Downwind I sometimes run it out but usually slide it out on my feet. Make sure it's flat though without divots and have "strong" ankles/feet

2 stage flare and always complete your flare

Be safe, have fun and get your jump on!


piisfish

Mar 5, 2012, 12:58 AM
Post #6 of 11 (1986 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My question is: is there a point when a person simply MUST run out a landing vs sliding in on soles of feet?
YES, you have to run or walk your landing if :
-your speed is too high to just stand up
-your speed is too low for your shoes to slide (speed varies depending on the soles and shape of shoes, landing surface, how much weight you put on the shoe)


5.samadhi

Mar 5, 2012, 6:29 AM
Post #7 of 11 (1921 views)
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Re: [piisfish] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks a lot for the replies, that helps.


skyshimas  (D 29263)

Mar 5, 2012, 7:15 AM
Post #8 of 11 (1905 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

Running out or sliding either one is good however be careful while sliding because numerous people have broken their tib/fib when their foot got caught on bumps/holes on the field. Also it sounds that flaring technique could be improved to slow you down more before placing feet on the ground. Have fun and as some people said fly your canopy until you can't fly it no more.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Mar 6, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #9 of 11 (1763 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
couple questions for more experienced...

I fly a sabre2 150 with ~1.2 wingloading...most of my landings are done with double front riser input let up with plenty of time to naturally recover before the flare.

I have been running out landings lately (mainly when the winds are light). Can I avoid doing this by flaring a little deeper toward the end of my landing to keep converting the forward speed into lift?

Yes.

You're probably putting your feet down before you need to (most skydivers do) and not flaring all the way.

In reply to:
In other words, is my problem lately with running out as simple as I am not flaring deep enough toward the end of the flare?

You'll get the slowest landings (a couple of steps under a 105 loaded at 1.8 pounds/square foot at 5000 feet MSL with density altitude approaching 8000 feet and no wind) if you fly so that your feet would be below ground level and pop back up just before the toggles got too mushy to do that.

Aiming for the near edge of the pea gravel (crash landing will be more comfortable there) and continuing to fly with your feet up after you'd have tried to put them down might be interesting.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Mar 6, 2012, 2:03 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 11, 2012, 8:23 AM
Post #10 of 11 (1606 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

>I have been running out landings lately (mainly when the winds are light). Can I
>avoid doing this by flaring a little deeper toward the end of my landing to keep
>converting the forward speed into lift? In other words, is my problem lately with
>running out as simple as I am not flaring deep enough toward the end of the flare?

If you land without your brakes bottomed out on a modern canopy, then you could be flaring more deeply, and that would tend to slow you more before the canopy stops flying.

>And if I cannot avoid running out a landing: is there a line where a person must run
>out a landing or can I always safely lean back a little and slide it on the soles of my
>feet?

It is always theoretically possible to slide to a stop. Practical considerations (rubber shoes on asphalt for example) make this not practical sometimes.


5.samadhi

Mar 12, 2012, 4:35 AM
Post #11 of 11 (1504 views)
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Re: [billvon] ? about running out landings vs sliding [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks Bill and Drew. I have solved this problem last 10 jumps by flaring deeper than I had 'trained' myself the last 40 jumps before that. So I just punch it out a little deeper at the end (following Drew's advice to not quite put my feet down when I think its done) and lo and behold my canopy keeps flying horizontally for another 10 or so feet and the touchdown after is much softer. I still step it out but its not a flat out run anymore.

And that was in no wind so I feel pretty good.

now time to work on crosswind landings Cool

thanks for advice everybody



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