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Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL

 

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EOCS  (C License)

Feb 29, 2012, 10:27 AM
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Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL Can't Post

hi all,

got my harness and reserve used this last summer and after a quick inspection at the DZ and a ok by my instructors i bought it. the AAD had been removed but the reserve was strill in the freebag and there it sat until now. i will be getting my main next week and AAD and plan to go and and hook them up. I am doing some things to learn rigging like inspecting canopies with a rigger there and checking harnesses so i thought i would give this reserve a quick look over at home and to let it breathe a little before repack.

Now to the point.

the max exit weight on this is 153 pounds as stated on the tag
according to google translate i weigh about 178 pounds this would give me a WL of 1.25 and be almost 25 pounds over max.

Does anyone have recent experience with this reserve? is it common to overload reserves this much? is this max weight just to keep the WL at 1:1 although it can handle more?

I would not want this thing ripping in half just when i need it :S

i did a search and it mainly yielded older info that i could not post on.

I plan to run over this with the riggers and others at our DZ but that wont be tll next week so im here for opinions.

Thanks,
Jim

EDIT* otherwise the WL does not worry me and i was aware of it when i bought it :)


(This post was edited by EOCS on Feb 29, 2012, 10:31 AM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Feb 29, 2012, 11:08 AM
Post #2 of 38 (3154 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
is this max weight just to keep the WL at 1:1 although it can handle more?

Maybe it can handle more. Maybe not. Ravens were designed back in the 1980's, when no one loaded anything over 1.0. Even if it was built after most jumpers started flying zp mains, it's still ancient technology.

It probably won't blow up on you, but loaded over 1.0:1, the stall point is much higher up than it is on any modern reserve that was designed to be loaded over 1.0. MANY people who have flown Ravens loaded like yours would be have found themselves flat on their asses after flaring just like they do on their main. The unlucky ones ended up with broken wrists or tailbones or shattered vertebrae.

Nobody I know would recommend that reserve at that wingloading for any jumper, much less a novice.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 29, 2012, 11:13 AM
Post #3 of 38 (3150 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

>Does anyone have recent experience with this reserve? is it common to overload
>reserves this much?

Microravens do not handle overloading well. I've seen half a dozen injuries up to and including broken femurs from people trying to land them "normally" (i.e. like a typical main.)

They CAN be landed safely at higher loadings, but you need to practice with them - you can't just expect to land them like you would a main parachute.

Overall I don't recommend them outside of special circumstances (i.e. for a water rig.)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Feb 29, 2012, 11:56 AM
Post #4 of 38 (3121 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
is this max weight just to keep the WL at 1:1 although it can handle more?

Maybe it can handle more. Maybe not. Ravens were designed back in the 1980's, when no one loaded anything over 1.0. Even if it was built after most jumpers started flying zp mains, it's still ancient technology.

It probably won't blow up on you

I saw a guy spin in under a reserve without span-wise reinforcing tapes across all the line attachments that had split in two and five cell chunks on deployment which were held together only by the single strong tape at the tail.

That was an AFF instructor knocked out by a student on deployment who left the video unconscious in a head-down position and presumably traveling fast when his CYPRES fired although I'd guess a premature deployment freeflying could do the same thing.

For classic accuracy or flat RW I would and do jump old designs at appropriate wing-loadings (the Raven-III in my accuracy rig is 250 square feet), but for freeflying I'll stick to something like the PDR, Smart, R-Max, etc. (even Tempos made after 2001 got span-wise tapes).


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Feb 29, 2012, 11:58 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 29, 2012, 2:19 PM
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

The last time I discussed Micro-Ravens - with a Precision Aerodynamics factory rep - he admitted that "Ravens flare like %$#@! at 1.4 pounds per square foot!"

For a few years, the young jumpers in Pitt Meadows ignored me when I cautioned them about over-loading Ravens. THEN a young jumper made a series of mistakes - on his way to breaking bones - while landing a tiny Raven.
Sales of second-hand Micro-Ravens evaporated that summer ... and have never recovered.

By then, Precision had already stopped sewing Micro-Ravens and was pushing their (better) R-Max reserve. I have landed a tiny R-Max. I loaded it at the upper edge of the performance envelope. The flare was abrupt, but I landed softly in a muddy, farmer's field. Yes, I have far more respect for R-Max reserves, but would never buy an R-Max that small.

Bottom line, you would be better off with a more modern reserve, like a Precision R-Max, Performance Designs Reserve, PD Optimum, PISA Tempo, Aerodyne Smart, etc.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 29, 2012, 2:23 PM
Post #6 of 38 (3056 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

Check these BRUTAL tests on "Speed 2000" reserve:

http://www.paratec.de/...-2000-Drop-Tests.mov

And it packs a bit smaller than Optimum!


CMiller  (B 30864)

Feb 29, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #7 of 38 (3012 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be as conservative as possible on a reserve. You need one when things don't go right. Typically you're going to deploy a reserve at a much lower altitude than your main. This means you may not make it back to the landing area; you are probably going to be landing out.

As others have said they don't handle high loading well. That, and landing out are factors that would make me not recommend this to you.


(This post was edited by CMiller on Feb 29, 2012, 4:20 PM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Feb 29, 2012, 6:36 PM
Post #8 of 38 (2967 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

just don't flair anymore than chest level, you'll be fine.

wait until you get to the ground, and very short stab, and plf.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Feb 29, 2012, 6:54 PM
Post #9 of 38 (2964 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the max exit weight on this is 153 pounds as stated on the tag
according to google translate i weigh about 178 pounds this would give me a WL of 1.25 and be almost 25 pounds over max.

Why, why, WHY would you even ask? Would you overload an airplane? An elevator? A boat? A bungee cord? A zip line? A climbing rope?

No? Then why would you even consider over loading your last chance at survival while skydiving???? This perplexes me.

Your own statement should answer your questions for you. Over loading a reserve is sport death. I personally know someone who died when he blew a reserve to shreds due to overloading.

Manufacturers limits are there for a reason. Follow them - or face the consequences.


wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 29, 2012, 8:04 PM
Post #10 of 38 (2942 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

Absolutely true. I have one that, when I'm heavily weighted, I load about the same.

I have over 2000 jumps, many of them on 1980's-era squares. Remembering to flare your reserve differently from your main is not particularly easy; you're focused on different things than the fact that the flare can hurt if you do it the same as your usual flare.

Get a different reserve.

Wendy P.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 29, 2012, 8:41 PM
Post #11 of 38 (2922 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
the max exit weight on this is 153 pounds as stated on the tag.

Why, why, WHY would you even ask? a reason. Follow them - or face the consequences.

Hang on here - that's going too far. We know some limits on skydiving gear are just ultra-conservative limits from the manufacturers that have little to do with actual use. And other limits are certification limits, which are very important to take heed of.

A newbie has to learn which is which.

For example, the maximum suspended weight for a PD126 in a 1993 advert is 151 lbs. That's laughable, just a conservative suggested number, that nobody realistically pays attention to, now or then. The real hard limit is the 254 lbs certification limit, while other lower loadings can be debated depending on jumper skills and other factors.

A newbie needs to learn the subtleties, and that's what this thread is about.

Part of that is that Microravens start to take significantly more skill to land as one loads them up, relative to a PD at the same wing loading.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 29, 2012, 10:06 PM
Post #12 of 38 (2901 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

>Why, why, WHY would you even ask? Would you overload an airplane? An elevator?

I've never read the placarded weight and then asked people their weight as they are getting in. (Have you?) Since elevators almost never fail due to overloading there's not much concern there.

There's a similar issue with parachutes. Freeflyers with AAD's regularly exceed deployment speed limits and are usually fine. Skydivers regularly exceed weight limits on mains and are usually fine. People extend this thinking to reserves.

Indeed, when I started skydiving it was normal to overload both reserves and mains. (If you didn't you'd have to load mains at 1:1 or less.) Nowadays manufacturers use more realistic numbers, which is good - but some people still think "geez, if a Sabre 1 150's maximum weight was 168lbs - nobody loads them that lightly! Those numbers sound unrealistic."

But in any case it's not a good idea to exceed manufacturer's recommendations - and that is especially true on the Micro Ravens.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Mar 1, 2012, 6:25 AM
Post #13 of 38 (2822 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a reserve ride under a microraven 150 a few years == my body weight would probably have been 185-190, so exit weight would have been around 210. I had no problem with landing the reserve, mind you I had a couple thousand jumps, and it was a pretty windy day. I actually enjoyed the canopy flight on that jump - it's one of the few I remember well. Sold the reserve a couple years ago, but that had more to do with I lost the freebag on that jump and never paid to replace it, so the rig just sat in the basement.


EOCS  (C License)

Mar 1, 2012, 6:42 AM
Post #14 of 38 (2815 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
the max exit weight on this is 153 pounds as stated on the tag
according to google translate i weigh about 178 pounds this would give me a WL of 1.25 and be almost 25 pounds over max.

Why, why, WHY would you even ask? Would you overload an airplane? An elevator? A boat? A bungee cord? A zip line? A climbing rope?

No? Then why would you even consider over loading your last chance at survival while skydiving???? This perplexes me.

Your own statement should answer your questions for you. Over loading a reserve is sport death. I personally know someone who died when he blew a reserve to shreds due to overloading.

Manufacturers limits are there for a reason. Follow them - or face the consequences.

Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing.. the max exit weight it that what is listed in large print, there is a do not exceed weight aswell and that is far above what i weigh. From checking pics vs PDs websites it seems they rate their max exit weight the same as their lowest recommended weight or student weight although the do not exceed on the right side of their chart is far higher.

If i was even near the do no exceed weight i would not think to jump it.

Its similar to this pic from classifieds where the max exit weight is 134 but then under is another advanced training weight that is higher.

http://www.dropzone.com/...1&view=Image;d=1


fcajump  (D 15598)

Mar 1, 2012, 7:38 AM
Post #15 of 38 (2798 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
the max exit weight on this is 153 pounds as stated on the tag
according to google translate i weigh about 178 pounds this would give me a WL of 1.25 and be almost 25 pounds over max.

Why, why, WHY would you even ask? Would you overload an airplane? An elevator? A boat? A bungee cord? A zip line? A climbing rope?

No? Then why would you even consider over loading your last chance at survival while skydiving???? This perplexes me.

Your own statement should answer your questions for you. Over loading a reserve is sport death. I personally know someone who died when he blew a reserve to shreds due to overloading.

Manufacturers limits are there for a reason. Follow them - or face the consequences.

Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing.. the max exit weight it that what is listed in large print, there is a do not exceed weight aswell and that is far above what i weigh. From checking pics vs PDs websites it seems they rate their max exit weight the same as their lowest recommended weight or student weight although the do not exceed on the right side of their chart is far higher.

If i was even near the do no exceed weight i would not think to jump it.

Its similar to this pic from classifieds where the max exit weight is 134 but then under is another advanced training weight that is higher.

http://www.dropzone.com/...1&view=Image;d=1

Legal limits do not necessarily represent smart/safe limits. It only shows that during testing, they were able to deploy without exploding.
Being able to land at that wing loading, with your skill level, in a unexpected area, having opened low, and maybe you've got the use of both arms, or maybe not (check the recent incident forum), maybe your concious or maybe not...
You asked for opinion, many folks with much more experience and with experience with this type of canopy have given you the benefit of their experience.

At this point, you can either heed their advice and get a larger canopy or decide that "you're better than the average bear." In which case, I wish you luck... we've heard more than one show that attitude before... and morned more than one of them.Frown

Were it me, I would go larger/more conservative for my reserve.

But then again... maybe you're just that lucky... Unimpressed

Just my $.02
JW


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 1, 2012, 7:57 AM
Post #16 of 38 (2790 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
the max exit weight on this is 153 pounds as stated on the tag
according to google translate i weigh about 178 pounds this would give me a WL of 1.25 and be almost 25 pounds over max.

Why, why, WHY would you even ask? Would you overload an airplane? An elevator? A boat? A bungee cord? A zip line? A climbing rope?

No? Then why would you even consider over loading your last chance at survival while skydiving???? This perplexes me.

Your own statement should answer your questions for you. Over loading a reserve is sport death. I personally know someone who died when he blew a reserve to shreds due to overloading.

Manufacturers limits are there for a reason. Follow them - or face the consequences.

Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing.. the max exit weight it that what is listed in large print, there is a do not exceed weight aswell and that is far above what i weigh. From checking pics vs PDs websites it seems they rate their max exit weight the same as their lowest recommended weight or student weight although the do not exceed on the right side of their chart is far higher.

If i was even near the do no exceed weight i would not think to jump it.

Its similar to this pic from classifieds where the max exit weight is 134 but then under is another advanced training weight that is higher.

http://www.dropzone.com/...1&view=Image;d=1

My bad, sort of. I was replying thinking you were talking about absolute TSO limits as opposed to recommended limits for the flying and landing.

With that said, it is a really bad idea for young jumpers to push weight limit on a main or reserve canopy.


Pulse  (D 16387)

Mar 1, 2012, 11:38 PM
Post #17 of 38 (2677 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hang on here - that's going too far. We know some limits on skydiving gear are just ultra-conservative limits from the manufacturers that have little to do with actual use. And other limits are certification limits, which are very important to take heed of.

A newbie has to learn which is which.
Whoa! Are saying that being conservative for a new jumper is going too far? Sweet Jesus!

A huge number of jumpers out there should be jumping something bigger than what they are. That also goes for reserves. The fact is that when it comes down to safety, there are many more reasons to stay bigger than smaller. Simple fact.

Now allow me to seemingly contradict myself. As for the Micro Raven. I have a 135 and have landed it once loaded at 1.5:1 and it was fine. Yes, it did stall a bit faster than I expected but very reasonable. Video of the landing can be seen here:

http://pulsevisuals.com/movies/malfunction.html

Granted I had around 5,000 jumps and quite a bit of experience on F111 7 cells. I also fly in such a way that if it stalls, it stalls 2 or 3 feet off the ground rather than ten feet. Many stall their mains 3 feet off the ground consistantly and just figure that's how their canopy lands.


jeepers  (A 738)

Mar 2, 2012, 5:05 AM
Post #18 of 38 (2640 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

You're supposed to flare your reserve differently? Can you elaborate please?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 2, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #19 of 38 (2639 views)
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Re: [jeepers] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're supposed to flare your reserve differently? Can you elaborate please?

A reserve is a F111 7cell. They fly and flare differently from the ZP 9cells (and 7cells) we fly today as mains. The closest thing to landing a real reserve is landing a PD Lightning CRW canopy or if you can still find one a F111 canopy like a PD 7/9 cell, Cruislite or Raven.

A couple manufacturers offer demos. Try a demo reserve as a main. Preferably a demo the same size and model as you own or plan on buying.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Mar 2, 2012, 7:31 AM
Post #20 of 38 (2617 views)
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Re: [dragon2] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You're supposed to flare your reserve differently? Can you elaborate please?

A reserve is a F111 7cell. They fly and flare differently from the ZP 9cells (and 7cells) we fly today as mains. The closest thing to landing a real reserve is landing a PD Lightning CRW canopy or if you can still find one a F111 canopy like a PD 7/9 cell, Cruislite or Raven.
Almost, but low porosity material has a porosity like ZP for a couple of jumps. I'd rather compare reserves to Triathlon(ZP) or Spectre.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Mar 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
Post #21 of 38 (2620 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
You're supposed to flare your reserve differently? Can you elaborate please?

A reserve is a F111 7cell. They fly and flare differently from the ZP 9cells (and 7cells) we fly today as mains. The closest thing to landing a real reserve is landing a PD Lightning CRW canopy or if you can still find one a F111 canopy like a PD 7/9 cell, Cruislite or Raven.
Almost, but low porosity material has a porosity like ZP for a couple of jumps. I'd rather compare reserves to Triathlon(ZP) or Spectre.

I've done hundreds of jumps on both, and spectres/tris don't quite compare to reserves IMO. Yes better than a sabre 2 or stiletto, but coming straight off a spectre 150/spectre 135, a reserve still flared quite different.

After 50+ jumps on lightnings however, my next couple reserve landings felt remarkably similar Tongue Heck I did 10 jumps filming CRW using a demo PD126R, it fit right in with the lightnings.

Anyway, a reserve flies and lands radically different from modern 9cells, and flying one that is over the limit at a fairly high WL (=anything over 1.0-1.1) is a bad idea all round. If you are going to do it, better fly that reserve a couple times in non-emergency situations and see how you feel about it then. And remember that not every reserve ride goes 100% as planned. This coming from someone who broke her nose having to land a not fully opened 1.2 loaded reserve @ 350ish jumps.


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Mar 2, 2012, 9:18 AM
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Frown I wonder how your Instructor said it is fine for you ???? overloaded & 80 jumps ???

I'll make it short & clear: Do NOT use the MR150 - you are over the Mfg. Max weight limits & might risk yourself during the use.

Limits were created for a reason called Safety !!!

Does the 178 lb. is your body weight or your Exit weight ? the MR150 is limited to 153 lb. Max Exit Weight.

Be Safe & Think Twice !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Mar 2, 2012, 9:30 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 2, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #23 of 38 (2590 views)
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Re: [jeepers] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

>You're supposed to flare your reserve differently?

Depends GREATLY on the reserve. PD Optimums flare a lot like mains, but with less power overall and less flare deep in the stroke. PD reserves flare more like Triathalons - most of the flare is in the first half of the stroke. Microravens flare like that, but also stall hard once you get past the point at which you're getting a reasonable amount of flare.

All of which means - if you are going to load a reserve heavily, or are going to jump a reserve that flies significantly differently than what you are used to, it is a VERY good idea to put a jump or two on it to learn how to fly it. That way you can learn under ideal conditions instead of the worst of conditions (bad spot right after a low cutaway.)


Pulse  (D 16387)

Mar 2, 2012, 2:44 PM
Post #24 of 38 (2548 views)
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Re: [jeepers] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're supposed to flare your reserve differently? Can you elaborate please?

It's kind of an interesting question. My answer falls into the 'no' and 'yes' catagory.

No - Because i approach flaring different parachutes with the same mentality. Slow, controlled flare. Increasing AoA but careful to not add too much and kill your energy. So mentally my flare on my raven 135 was no different than any other canopy I've ever jumped.

Yes - Keeping the above in mind. The flare probably does end up being a bit different. As many have posted, it does NOT flare like most people's mains these days. Worse yet, I think many hear about how 'badly' reserves flare and people end up messing it up because they change their mindset and do what they're told. Not paying attention to what the parachute is telling them to do.


Spills  (B 36648)

Mar 5, 2012, 8:24 PM
Post #25 of 38 (2437 views)
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Re: [EOCS] Microraven 150 @ 1.25 WL [In reply to] Can't Post

I was recently reading a PD reserve paper and noticed that it was actually illegal to jump over the limit. Although I don't know when the FAA would be out enforcing this. Maybe if you are doing a demo.



"Many jumpers exceed the maximum weight limit
for their main canopies. While this may be foolish, it is not illegal. The maximum exit weight for a reserve is a legal limit. In the United States, it is a violation of federal law to jump a reserve if your exit weight exceeds this limit, and other countries may enforce this limit as well."


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