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Tm's and depression

 

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stcktm

Feb 27, 2012, 10:08 PM
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Tm's and depression Can't Post

Hi im posting under an alternative username but just wanted to get peoples views on my situation...

Im a full time tandem master in my early 20s making good money, doing a job i love. over the past year or so i have been suffering from low motivation and depression.

some days i can have the best day of my life but all it takes is one thought and then im back into this state of depression, most days i wake up with it and it doesnt go away...

It has been occuring more regularly recently and I have been thinking about getting checked out etc and also looking at ways to deal with it myself as its just getting too regular to just ignore and get on with...

My question is: as i am a tm if i was to go and get an official diagnosis etc could this jeopardise my rating/medical/job?

Any thoughts/ experiences would be really appreciated:

Thanks alot for reading


obelixtim  (D 84)

Feb 28, 2012, 3:43 AM
Post #2 of 45 (4275 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Hmmmm, this is a toughie. Its a complex situation. It could be significant, it could be minor.....

Im sure there are people on the board who can offer good advice, FWIW, heres my 2 cents.....

I think it prolly is a good idea to get checked out, the fact that you are able to identify the times when things are not so good would mean (in my opinion) that you are prolly OK to carry on jumping, but maybe take time out now and again.

As far as the medical aspect, if you are prescribed medication to manage the condition, it may or may not affect your ability to jump/rating, not being a doctor or chemist I cant give you any valid advice on that.

Best to speak to a doctor who specialises in Aviation medicine if you are prescribed medication.

Its good that you recognise a problem and are willing to ask for advice, its too important to just carry on regardless.

Good luck....


jerolim  (F License)

Feb 28, 2012, 4:58 AM
Post #3 of 45 (4251 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Ha! We usually joke with this stuff. I am pretending like taking anti depresion pills before going into plane with my student.Tongue
I know for a fact that sunlight is needed for production of vitamin D, and for well being. I can only suggest that you pack and breif outside on the sun and focus on positive things during day.


(This post was edited by jerolim on Feb 28, 2012, 5:00 AM)


paul.Mcallister  (A License)

Feb 28, 2012, 5:09 AM
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Re: [obelixtim] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, forgive my ignorance but do you need a FAA class 3 medical to tandem jump?

If so there is some good news in this particular area. Last year the FAA changed its policy on anti depressants and some of the modern SRI's for treating depression are now acceptable.

I would recommend to contact at AOPA. They have a service to help pilots with medical certification issues and they will be able to give accurate information along with the approach you will need to take with your class 3 medical should you decide to pursue treatment.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 28, 2012, 5:58 AM
Post #5 of 45 (4207 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

 
An AOPA article in 2010 on the new US rules:
http://www.aopa.org/...2010/100402ssri.html

The conditions are pretty strict though -- any aviator would have to give up their job for a year:

Quote:
All symptoms of the diagnosed condition must respond to treatment with use of only one of the allowed medications, and the condition must be stable with no change in or exacerbation of symptoms for 12 months prior to certification.

The airman must be on a stable dosage of medication for a minimum of 12 months prior to certification.

The airman must have no aeromedically significant side effects of prescribed medication.


lowapproach  (C 38363)

Feb 28, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #6 of 45 (4189 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

If you ask a dozen AMEs, you will get probably half as many answers. The sad truth is that it depends. Most pilots I know avoid taking any medications which will have to be disclosed to the FAA, simply because it can make renewing / getting your medical a more daunting task. It is important to remember that you must not lie on the FAA form 8500-08 and that the FAA already has access to your driving record (to look for things like DUI). The FAA can ask for access to your medical records but would require you to sign your consent.

Question 18 on form 8500-8 (see attached image) asks specifically about diagnosis of mental disorders, including depression. If you have been to a doctor and diagnosed, you would legally have to disclose it and then work with the FAA to understand the impact and, hopefully, eventually get a medical.

Question 19 (see attached image) asks about any visits to healthcare providers in last 3 years (although they for some reason do not include a dentist or AME as a healthcare provider for the sake of disclosure). You would be obligated to report a visit to a physician even if there was no diagnosis or if nothing was prescribed.

Question 17 (again, attached image) asks for a list of medications that you *currently* use. The advice I have been given is that if it is not currently prescribed or used that you are not obligated to disclose.

The consensus among the people I know is to consult a trusted AME and pose hypothetical questions regarding possible treatments and prescriptions, or to join something like AOPA and take advantage of their legal program. A third class medical, which I believe is required to be a TI, is generally very easy to get. It does get more complicated with the introduction of a medical diagnosis or prescription and the FAA sucks to deal with.

Depression is a rough thing, appropriate treatment is very important. With appropriate forethought and planning, it is possible to get treatment and a medical.

I found this, kind of interesting: http://www.iflyamerica.org/returningtoflight.asp

Disclosure: IANAL or a TI

tl;dr Talk to a professional before seeing an AME for a potentially disqualifying event.


edited to point out that I do not have an instructor rating and that I am a random asshole on the internet!


(This post was edited by lowapproach on Feb 28, 2012, 6:30 AM)
Attachments: 8500-8-Question18.jpg (173 KB)
  8500-8-Question19.jpg (50.6 KB)
  8500-8-Question17.jpg (63.4 KB)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 28, 2012, 6:38 AM
Post #7 of 45 (4163 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My question is: as i am a tm if i was to go and get an official diagnosis etc could this jeopardise my rating/medical/job?

Yes. Be super careful who you talk to about this, you could lose your medical in a hurry. Getting it back is not easy or cheap.

Just playing 'armchair doctor' here, but have you tried the basic, non-medical remedies? Maybe start an exercise routine and new diet? Being more physically healthy can never hurt, and it will give you daily goals and activities to focus on. Maybe some sort of other 'lifestyle' change? A yoga class? A new hobby?

I know that being a 'professional' jumper can lead to somewhat of a 'free form' lifestyle. You don't work every day, you don't work at the same times when you do, there's a lot of unexpected free time with the weather and such, and that doesn't always 'work' for everyone.

Try to build some sort of structure into your life, and see if that helps. Get a routine or some kind, and stick to it for awhile. You said it yourself, the job is great and the money is great, but those 'highs' don't help you get through the times when you're not jumping and making $50/hour. Truth is, they probably set you up for feeling even 'lower' during your off times. Establish some goals for yourself away from the jumping (maybe even study to become a rigger?) and see if you can focus on those when your not chucking drouges.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Feb 28, 2012, 6:42 AM)


ShotterMG  (Student)

Feb 28, 2012, 7:43 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Try to build some sort of structure into your life, and see if that helps. Get a routine or some kind, and stick to it for awhile

Ahhhhh..... There you have it. Dear Dave says ignore it and your chemical imbalance will go away Thanks Dave! To the Op, you are very lucky to have Dear Dave to turn to. It so happens he is an expert. And luckily, he gets up every single day and shares his expertise with us on dropzone. He knows everything from packing, to swooping, to putting on your socks, to depression, to, well...every damn thing under the sun. And thankfully, he doesn't jump, have a job, a relationship, or any thing else to do but give us advice. It's so awesome and so lucky for us. He writes multiple 800 word posts every single day on every single thread. He doesn't waste his time helping people at his dropzone, or talking to people in person, or doing anything else really. He just lives to help us all here on the Internet. . It's so awesome.
But Dear Dave, I have one question. I worry that in your daily regimine of typing out long lectures to your Internet students, that amid the hours and hours of dispensing adivce on every possible topic, do you ever have a moment of self awareness, a single moment where you suddenly feel....what is the word?.... Hmmmmm...... maybe a tiny bit arrogant? I hope not. Thanks for everything.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 28, 2012, 7:53 AM
Post #9 of 45 (4084 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a full time tandem master in my early 20s making good money, doing a job i love. over the past year or so i have been suffering from low motivation and depression.

some days i can have the best day of my life but all it takes is one thought and then I'm back into this state of depression, most days i wake up with it and it doesn't go away...

It has been occurring more regularly recently...




In reply to:

So to be clear... you're young, in a professional position in which people place their lives in your care, you are experiencing signs of clinical depression to the point you realize it's an issue, it seems to be happening a lot AND it's getting worse.


First off, I applaud your courage & honestly.

You recognizing there is a problem is the first and key step, now DO something about it.

As mentioned above it 'could' be something as simple as nutrition and rest, most 'early 20s' guys don't maintain the machine as well as they should.

You need to eat every 4 hours, that's actually how the body works best...smaller and continuous intake. It helps to maintain you chemistry levels, fewer spikes up or down.

Stay hydrated.

You need exercise and sleep, make a pattern of both and stick to it...that's imperative for both mental & physical health.

Supplement your diet with good quality vitamins.

IF you're self medicating ya gotta stop now, booze is a depressant, and drugs alter your brain chemistry...getting the hard drive squared away HAS to be priority 1.

You allude that certain 'thoughts' seem to trigger the depression, you may have some issues you need to deal with that you may not realize are affecting you.

May want to check into some counseling, that doesn't have to be medically related if ya get my drift.

Somewhere you may have a loose wire, it happens to the best...the mere fact you REALIZE it is fantastic.

~Take control and do something about it, get a couple books on depression...may help to understand what's going on better.

If things continue going downhill, you may have to step back from the TM grind for a while, it's just a job...chemical imbalances may very well require you to get on prescribed meds, might be short term, might be for ever...

Either way ~your LIFE is much more important!

Realize that you NOT being 100% is putting both you and others in jeopardy, don't go any farther down that road.

You deserve to be happy & healthy.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 28, 2012, 8:03 AM)


lowapproach  (C 38363)

Feb 28, 2012, 7:56 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Yes. Be super careful who you talk to about this, you could lose your medical in a hurry. Getting it back is not easy or cheap.

Just playing 'armchair doctor' here, but have you tried the basic, non-medical remedies?

This is good advice. There is a big difference between types of "depression." Clinical, seasonal, or just tired or doing the same shit every day. There are days when I don't feel like getting out of bed, going to the office, and doing the same thing, fighting the same battles, and attending the same meetings.

It is also equally important to be a little introspective in determining if it is clinical or something more serious. Depression can be debilitating. If you have hazardous thoughts (as opposed to just not feeling "right") then that should help set the priorities.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 28, 2012, 8:05 AM
Post #11 of 45 (4067 views)
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Re: [ShotterMG] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Ahhhhh..... There you have it. Dear Dave says ignore it and your chemical imbalance will go away Thanks Dave! To the Op, you are very lucky to have Dear Dave to turn to. It so happens he is an expert. And luckily, he gets up every single day and shares his expertise with us on dropzone. He knows everything from packing, to swooping, to putting on your socks, to depression, to, well...every damn thing under the sun. And thankfully, he doesn't jump, have a job, a relationship, or any thing else to do but give us advice. It's so awesome and so lucky for us. He writes multiple 800 word posts every single day on every single thread. He doesn't waste his time helping people at his dropzone, or talking to people in person, or doing anything else really. He just lives to help us all here on the Internet. . It's so awesome.
But Dear Dave, I have one question. I worry that in your daily regimine of typing out long lectures to your Internet students, that amid the hours and hours of dispensing adivce on every possible topic, do you ever have a moment of self awareness, a single moment where you suddenly feel....what is the word?.... Hmmmmm...... maybe a tiny bit arrogant? I hope not. Thanks for everything
.


Look dickfuck, at least I made an attempt to be constructive and offer an idea. I also prefaced it by admitting I was playing 'armchair doctor', so the guy knew I had no medical qualifications.

What did you contribute?

The fact is, if he goes to a doctor for this, he's either left to lie on his next medical application, or risk having it denied. One thing I do know about is the difficulty in getting your medical back after having it pullled/denied, so if the guy can avoid that route, that's what will let him keep his ticket.

You're an asshole anyway. How about you show me where you've made any contribution to any post anywhere, and not just shoved your dick in there to make some smart ass remarks. Fuck you.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 28, 2012, 8:12 AM
Post #12 of 45 (4056 views)
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Re: [ShotterMG] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Try to build some sort of structure into your life, and see if that helps. Get a routine or some kind, and stick to it for awhile

Ahhhhh..... There you have it. Dear Dave says ignore it and your chemical imbalance will go away Thanks Dave! To the Op, you are very lucky to have Dear Dave to turn to. It so happens he is an expert. And luckily, he gets up every single day and shares his expertise with us on dropzone. He knows everything from packing, to swooping, to putting on your socks, to depression, to, well...every damn thing under the sun. And thankfully, he doesn't jump, have a job, a relationship, or any thing else to do but give us advice. It's so awesome and so lucky for us. He writes multiple 800 word posts every single day on every single thread. He doesn't waste his time helping people at his dropzone, or talking to people in person, or doing anything else really. He just lives to help us all here on the Internet. . It's so awesome.
But Dear Dave, I have one question. I worry that in your daily regimine of typing out long lectures to your Internet students, that amid the hours and hours of dispensing adivce on every possible topic, do you ever have a moment of self awareness, a single moment where you suddenly feel....what is the word?.... Hmmmmm...... maybe a tiny bit arrogant? I hope not. Thanks for everything.


Sooo.....How 'BOUT them Cubs?! Laugh


nolan358  (Student)

Feb 28, 2012, 8:20 AM
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Re: [ShotterMG] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I am new here and should probably just stay out of this but i was surprised by this reaction to Dave's response.. To be honest this seemed to be one of the most well thought out constructive, polite and non argumentative posts from him i have seen in a while. I'm sure he doesn't give a damn about my approval nor should he but the reaction may have been a touch over the top.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 28, 2012, 8:49 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Post of the day. :-)


devildog  (C 40302)

Feb 28, 2012, 9:03 AM
Post #15 of 45 (4012 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Diet and exercise do wonders for mental health, that being said, you can always go see a therapist (not a psychiatrist). Look for ones that specialize in depression (they all have different areas of expertise) and explain your situation. Your first visit would just be an entry / assessment one anyway, so you wouldnt have to go into anything. That being said, most -- I imagine -- would be very comfortable not sending you to a psychiatrist for pills as long as you didn't try putting a gun to your head. And since it's a mental health treatment, confidentiality is always treated with the utmost importance. Hell, you might even go once or twice and get a new perspective on things and the "depression" diagnosis might go out the window. But, if its real chronic depression, it won't get better on its own. The flip side to that is, it is treatable :)


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Feb 28, 2012, 9:06 AM
Post #16 of 45 (4011 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The fact is, if he goes to a doctor for this, he's either left to lie on his next medical application, or risk having it denied.

I wouldn't recommend lying on an FAA form, but if I had to do it over again I might have temporarily forgot about getting a sleep study done for sleep apnea. Once I mentioned it, I had to scurry down the FAA rabbit hole throwing money around to get a waiver.

I can't recommend you don't fully disclose your medical information to the FAA, but I hope you can read between the lines.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 28, 2012, 10:41 AM
Post #17 of 45 (3948 views)
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Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

The thing is, IF you don't disclose the 'required' information and something occurs that leads to an investigation in which a paper trail IS discovered...you are screwed, blued & tattooed big time.


theplummeter  (C License)

Feb 28, 2012, 10:49 AM
Post #18 of 45 (3942 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Dave offered some excellent advice that's working for a large number of pilots and may help the original poster.

If you disagree, find a pilot on the HIMS program and ask him or her to register here and share how cheap and easy it is to get back flying. A friend of mine (used to be a coworker) decided to seek help for his alcoholism. Despite never having an issue at work, no DUI convictions, and no criminal record the FAA pulled his medical and he has been on HIMS and in the special issuance loop in Oklahoma City for over two years now. It took him eighteen months to get a Class 2 and he has to travel 900 miles twice a year to see their doctor for his physicals and follow ups.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Feb 28, 2012, 11:37 AM
Post #19 of 45 (3903 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The thing is, IF you don't disclose the 'required' information and something occurs that leads to an investigation in which a paper trail IS discovered...you are screwed, blued & tattooed big time

Yep:
Quote:
Whoever in any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States knowingly and willfully falsifies, conceals or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact, or who makes any false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or representations, or entry, may be fined up to $250,000 or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

It is extremely rare, but pilots have gone to jail for lying on a 1st class medical certificate.


skinnay

Feb 28, 2012, 11:41 AM
Post #20 of 45 (3899 views)
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Re: [jerolim] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ha! We usually joke with this stuff. I am pretending like taking anti depresion pills before going into plane with my student.Tongue

Unsure


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 28, 2012, 11:54 AM
Post #21 of 45 (3887 views)
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Re: [theplummeter] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think Dave offered some excellent advice that's working for a large number of pilots and may help the original poster.

If you disagree, find a pilot on the HIMS program and ask him or her to register here and share how cheap and easy it is to get back flying. A friend of mine (used to be a coworker) decided to seek help for his alcoholism. Despite never having an issue at work, no DUI convictions, and no criminal record the FAA pulled his medical and he has been on HIMS and in the special issuance loop in Oklahoma City for over two years now. It took him eighteen months to get a Class 2 and he has to travel 900 miles twice a year to see their doctor for his physicals and follow ups.


Two points~

1) I'm not in any way disagreeing with what Dave is saying, read carefully and you'll see how I clearly stated PAPER TRAIL.

I intended for the perception to be that one must take measures to insure that later down the road you don't lose everything you now or ever will hope to own.

You think is expensive and time consuming reinstating a medical?

Try dealing with the consequences of lying on one, especially in which you or an employer have some liability.

I understand the slippery slope, I live in a community of professional pilots, heck I'm married to one with over 30,000 hours of jet time who takes a mandatory physical every 6 months.

I fully understand what the game is, and how it's played...probably better than most.

That being said~
(point #2) Sometimes there IS an issue (or more) serious enough that one one just HAS to bite the bullet and do the right thing in an act of unselfish concern for the greater good...

Do YOU want a loved one's life in the hands of someone that truly shouldn't be in the air...but is 'playing the game' to keep a medical they don't deserve?

There is an ethical question involved, at what point do you consider the issues you're not being forthcoming about serious enough to stop skirting around?

It's horribly unfortunate that concern for one's livelihood might keep them from properly addressing some health issue that if left unaddressed is little more than a ticking time bomb...Crazy

You place your bet and ya spin the wheel~

All I'm saying is that IF you choose to dance on that fine line, protect yourself.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 28, 2012, 12:05 PM)


paul.Mcallister  (A License)

Feb 28, 2012, 12:04 PM
Post #22 of 45 (3874 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I can't recommend you don't fully disclose your medical information to the FAA, but I hope you can read between the lines.

When I first came to live in the US as part of getting my flying credentials transferred I had to get a second class medical.

I found an awesome AME. His advise to me was that the process is like doing your taxes... "Don't lie, and and only tell what is asked".

He used to finish our session with, "do you have any hypothetical questions?"

I am not advocating deception, just common sense. For example, self disqualify from flying or in this case Tandem work until you get it figured out. Figured out could mean anything from resolving with cognitive therapy to quitting the game all together.

Best of luck.


theplummeter  (C License)

Feb 28, 2012, 12:10 PM
Post #23 of 45 (3862 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think Dave offered some excellent advice that's working for a large number of pilots and may help the original poster.

If you disagree, find a pilot on the HIMS program and ask him or her to register here and share how cheap and easy it is to get back flying. A friend of mine (used to be a coworker) decided to seek help for his alcoholism. Despite never having an issue at work, no DUI convictions, and no criminal record the FAA pulled his medical and he has been on HIMS and in the special issuance loop in Oklahoma City for over two years now. It took him eighteen months to get a Class 2 and he has to travel 900 miles twice a year to see their doctor for his physicals and follow ups.


Two points~

1) I'm not in any way disagreeing with what Dave is saying, read carefully and you'll see how I clearly stated PAPER TRAIL.

I intended for the perception to be that one must take measures to insure that later down the road you don't lose everything you now or ever will hope to own.

You think is expensive and time consuming reinstating a medical?

Try dealing with the consequences of lying on one, especially in which you or an employer have some liability.

I understand the slippery slope, I live in a community of professional pilots, heck I'm married to one with over 30,000 hours of jet time who takes a mandatory physical every 6 months.

I fully understand what the game is, and how it's played...probably better than most.

That being said~
(point #2) Sometimes there IS an issue (or more) serious enough that one one just HAS to bite the bullet and do the right thing in an act of unselfish concern for the greater good...

Do YOU want a loved one's life in the hands of someone that truly shouldn't be in the air...but is 'playing the game' to keep a medical they don't deserve?

There is an ethical question involved, at what point do you consider the issues you're not being forthcoming about serious enough to stop skirting around?

It's horribly unfortunate that concern for one's livelihood might keep them from properly addressing some health issue that if left unaddressed is little more than a ticking time bomb...Crazy

You place your bet and ya spin the wheel~

All I'm saying is that IF you choose to dance on that fine line, protect yourself.

I totally agree that if a situation is truly severe that a person needs to have the integrity to pull themselves out of the situation and get the help they need. They also need to have the integrity to tell the truth when asked about it.

I just think that it's so much easier to start simple and see if that helps. That's to what I was referring.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 28, 2012, 2:14 PM
Post #24 of 45 (3792 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

You used a fake name here... give the Doc a fake name. Smile Pay cash... problem solved.Wink


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Feb 28, 2012, 3:52 PM
Post #25 of 45 (3734 views)
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Re: [stcktm] Tm's and depression [In reply to] Can't Post

Depression is potentially fatal and very treatable.

Treatment for depression can vastly complicate getting &/or keeping an FAA medical.

There are medical consulting firms which specialize in helping folks deal with FAA on these matters.

My experience with this firm was very good: timely, professional, authoritative, and reasonable cost. http://aviationmedicine.com/....cfm?fuseaction=home


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