Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Photography and Video:
Outside video vs. Handcam

 

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sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Feb 23, 2012, 8:25 AM
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Outside video vs. Handcam Can't Post

Sorry for reinventing the wheel here if this topic has already been covered. I couldn't find anything in a weak search.

I replied to a thread in the instructor forum about unprofessional behavior caught on video that veered off topic to handcam video and stills on tandem student jumps are a " cheap low quality alternative" to outside video".

While I agree that handcam video and stills has become popular at Cessna dropzones where aircraft space is at a premium, I strongly disagree that this method of capturing the experience of a skydive for tandem students is " garbage ".

In my professional opinion anyone taking this stance either hasn't done handcam for a student tandem skydive or isn't trying hard enough to capture it's true essence.

Although I am not a dropzone owner, I am a business owner so I understand the financial side of this though I do believe the customer should have the choice to purchase whichever video/stills package they want at whatever the dropzone feels they have to charge to make it cost effective.

In a constant effort to retain students and project a positive image on our sport, I welcome your thoughts and criticisms.


shropshire  (C License)

Feb 23, 2012, 8:41 AM
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Re: [sky4meplease] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you please show us some good ones, so that we can get a sense of what is possible?


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 23, 2012, 9:11 AM
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Re: [shropshire] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Could you please show us some good ones, so that we can get a sense of what is possible?

+1

The only benefit that I've seen is they can talk under canopy and get the immediate reaction once they're deployed. The downside is, its closer in, usually shakes a bit more, most of the canopy flight is with the camera at some odd angle.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Feb 23, 2012, 9:27 AM
Post #4 of 42 (3502 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

The unfortunate thing is while there are some really great instructors that can shoot incredible handicam videos, these instructors are few and far between. Most of the stuff that passes as tandem video handicam are horrible with instructor seeming not to care about the quantity only the extra $ they get. I think there is a market for both outside video and handicam if done correctly with clientele for each. My wife and I used to edit videos for a stent, I prefer the look of outside video and my wife preferred the handicam video (stating it gave a more accurate perspective that the individual student went through). The one scene captured in handicam that is priceless is there initial reaction after opening.


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Feb 23, 2012, 10:02 AM)


wetrock

Feb 23, 2012, 1:06 PM
Post #5 of 42 (3459 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

  I edit for a small cesna drop zone. I have worked with both hand cam and outside video i really cant say that one is better than the other. Outside video adds the problem of only half the tandems being able to get video with hand cam every one can get video so it just makes scense to do handcam video. I am hoping to edit some hybird jumps with both outside video and handcam. it will take more time to edit but for me but it will be a cool video for the student and may be a free jump or better for the out side camera guy.

Some handcam dropzones that i like are
skydive airlie beach

http://www.youtube.com/user/skydiveairliebeach

and skydive surfcity the older videos in the archives with chester and the kid

http://www.youtube.com/...citySkydiving/videos


The handcam vs outside video debate is a lively one so hang on to your toilet seat.


(This post was edited by wetrock on Feb 23, 2012, 1:30 PM)


mwabd1  (D 25298)

Feb 23, 2012, 3:49 PM
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Re: [wetrock] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seen a lot more bad than good handcam video and on the same note I have seen my share of bad outside video.

I still think that you will never beat a good outside video that has been properly shot and edited.

Handcam has it's value, but in my opinion should be half the cost........you get what you pay for!


(This post was edited by mwabd1 on Feb 23, 2012, 3:49 PM)


velocityphoto  (D 18988)

Feb 23, 2012, 5:30 PM
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Re: [mwabd1] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

I shoot outside video with a wireless mic system, so it captures the reaction after the opening . But it
s pricey and is a pain to move from one student to the other.


adamT  (D 26819)

Feb 24, 2012, 7:19 AM
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Re: [mwabd1] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Only problem with charging half the price is if the student has a choice and is aware of the price difference, you won't sell many outside videos. Even if you show them both products side by side. But if a dz is not interested in selling outside video, then its perfect.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Feb 24, 2012, 8:30 AM
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Re: [adamT] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you would be suprised, if you only offer video on handicam and still plus video on outside which one is most popular.


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Feb 25, 2012, 8:44 AM
Post #10 of 42 (3249 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Great replies so far. Thanks everyone. Much more positive feedback than I was getting from the other forum.

Obviously quality can vary greatly from dropzone to dropzone in both disciplines. Aircraft, camera person, weather, camera equipment and yes even students all have some impact on the final product.

As for price, it seems fair to say that paying for an extra person on the load doing outside video and or stills would cost more money. If that person is carrying better camera equipment than say a handcam set up can carry then that is worth something also, but I don't necessarily agree that one in itself is worth more or less than the other for any other reason.

I uploaded some handcam video and stills to youtube here http://youtu.be/38XU5mwStKE. For no other reason than to hopefully show some different camera angles than you would see from outside video and stills. It's a little longer than I wanted so I apologize for that but I thought it captured some of the nuances that come with that discipline.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 25, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #11 of 42 (3243 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Very well done hand camSmile> That being said, and of course IMHO, the biggest problem I have with hand cam is the lens choices. Seems like most lenses wide enough for hand cam create a severe vignette. True, most tandem students will never notice it. I Do!! I hate the feeling Im looking thru a cardboard tube to watch a video. At very best, the lens creates a fish eye effect, also a negative in my opinion.

I have a very high appreciation for quality video, inside or outside. Im learning this craft slowly, but have seen enough footage to identify the difference. So, I see this as a two-fold discussion.
A. Quality/Skill of Videographer inside or outside share this problem.
B. Quality of Video/Equipment Outside is at a true advantage here.

I personally like Outside but love to see a little Inside thrown in as a second camera angle. Cool


crzegrl  (B License)

Feb 25, 2012, 10:23 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

The beauty of this debate is the simple fact that two views now exist. And not just two video views, but two good quality DIGITAL camera views as well. As social media evolves and people are more and more cognizant of what it takes to edit a video, DZs, camera people and those doing the editing will be held to a higher standard regardless of the view. They are also going to expect to walk away with something they can upload on their way home.

Just a note on which I prefer . . . because my opinion is simply what it is . . . Hand Cam video, when done well, gives an incredible view of what it is like from the student's perspective from beginning to end. Many only do one jump ever so they have as much of the jump to relive and share as possible.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Feb 25, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #13 of 42 (3202 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Very well done hand camSmile> the biggest problem I have with hand cam is the lens choices.
From the research I have done there are not alot of choices when it comes to .3 or .2 lens or atleast not in high quality lens. I have used a Royal .2 but when I compared that to the Century .3 MKII lens it was very clear that the Century had better optics. While the Century is hugI think it is worth it IMHO
Attachments: Century .3.jpg (192 KB)
  Royal .2.JPG (178 KB)


wetrock

Feb 25, 2012, 4:19 PM
Post #14 of 42 (3185 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

we have used the royal lens and well the photos you attached speak for them selves. I had better results with WAYCOOL lenses. Scratching this lens is a less expensive repair with this lens beasue it comes with a lens filter. OPTICA has a lens that i have been looking at but i am unshure about its durability for hand cam. Looking at GOPRO video i see more clarity over all and the lenses are 10 bucks to replace. But i have also seen CX100 video that beats GOPRO hands down but i don't now what here setup is.
back to the original topic on advantage outside video has over hand cam is. Hand cam canot deliver photos with the same quality and the perspective of having nothing around the student but air and a tandem master. i have not seen any and setup on a hand cam the will even come close to a dslr mounted on helmet. also outside video misses the opening reaction and the canopy flight and having edited hand cam for 2 seasons now there is alot of fun that outside video is not recording for the students.


(This post was edited by wetrock on Feb 25, 2012, 4:26 PM)


TheCaptain  (D License)

Feb 26, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #15 of 42 (3132 views)
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Re: [wetrock] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I had better results with WAYCOOL lenses. Scratching this lens is a less expensive repair with this lens beasue it comes with a lens filter.

I have looked at the waycool lens but IMHO I thought the Royal lens looked better with less fish eye look


wetrock

Feb 26, 2012, 1:01 PM
Post #16 of 42 (3111 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
I have looked at the waycool lens but IMHO I thought the Royal lens looked better with less fish eye look
In reply to:




i don't see that much of a difference in the fish eye look.The royals have a blur affect that de-focuses everything but but a small bit in the center and it has this efect where it outlines all objects in the fore ground. The photos you shared show this. while the WAYCOOL is not perfect etheir but it does not have the soft edges that the royal does.


(This post was edited by wetrock on Feb 26, 2012, 1:05 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 27, 2012, 3:36 PM
Post #17 of 42 (3043 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

>I strongly disagree that this method of capturing the experience of a skydive for
>tandem students is " garbage ".

I don't think it's "garbage." But I think you summed it up well earlier - it's generally cheap, low quality video, which is why it's attractive to many DZ's.

1) Generally handycams are small out of necessity. This means small low quality lenses and small sensors (i.e. Gopro and the like.) You're generally not going to see anyone with a CX100 and a Raynox on a handycam.

2) They are jerky out of necessity. The climbout will be a lot of jerking around as the TM positions themselves and the student. The handles touch will be a lot of disorienting 180 rotations, and the deployment will require some moving around. You can't avoid this so there are sections that just plain look like shit. You can edit them out of course but that takes more work and removes some of the video, often shortly after exit.

3) They are cheap, which is their one big attraction.


wetrock

Feb 27, 2012, 8:15 PM
Post #18 of 42 (3017 views)
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Re: [billvon] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1) Generally handycams are small out of necessity. This means small low quality lenses and small sensors (i.e. Gopro and the like.) You're generally not going to see anyone with a CX100 and a Raynox on a handycam.
the dropzone I edit has only used CX100 for hand cam and there are alot of hand cams out there using the CX100 as per dse's recommendations.


Quote:
2) They are jerky out of necessity. The climbout will be a lot of jerking around as the TM positions themselves and the student. The handles touch will be a lot of disorienting 180 rotations, and the deployment will require some moving around. You can't avoid this so there are sections that just plain look like shit. You can edit them out of course but that takes more work and removes some of the video, often shortly after exit.

yup that's pritty much fair but i have never edited video out after exit. when the tandem master says "ready set go" the camera is stable any rotations after that are because because the tandem is rotating and you see the plane going away from the camera. shaky camera can be reduced in free fall by reducing the amount cloth on the camera hand so it's not being pulled around by the wind.
In reply to:
3) They are cheap, which is their one big attraction.
the camera set up we use cost about a grand and thats not cheap. though its not as much as a helmut CX100 and DSLR.

i don't think camera flyers need to be so defensive. In the bigger dropzones it makes comlpete sence to have camera flyers because you have one person responsible for video who can deliver video and pictures to the editor
with scenes that need little or no editing. the video length is half of what a hand cam video is. In a fast paced dz really helps to crank out videos and pictures.

Hand cam video takes more time to edit render and burn.
If the students want to watch the video before they buy it, longer to show it to them Because the video is usualy twice as long. It also looks better when edited buy hand to take out the shaky camera work like prep for exit, grabing brakes and other things. Hand cam is mostly a cesena thing because there aren't enugh seats in the plane to offer video for both tandems. The video quality is the same but does not offer pictures of the same quallity that can, and should be sold for more hand cam.


BMFin

Feb 27, 2012, 9:42 PM
Post #19 of 42 (3003 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZ I work for offers two types of video. All tandems include gopro handcam video. If you pay some extra you get handcam + outside video + stills.

IMO good go pro handcam footage looks great. One big advantage is the footage you get under canopy. Obviously this is impossible with outside video. On the otherhand the passanger gets more out from the experience when there is a videographer in the air flying in front of him/her.

Personally I have seen a lot of bad outside videos. Though handcam also demands some degree of skill, I think it is much harder to screw up completely.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 27, 2012, 10:28 PM
Post #20 of 42 (2994 views)
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Re: [wetrock] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

>yup that's pritty much fair but i have never edited video out after exit. when the
>tandem master says "ready set go" the camera is stable any rotations after that are
>because because the tandem is rotating . . .

What about handles touches?


wetrock

Feb 27, 2012, 10:57 PM
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Re: [BMFin] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

BMFin

Do you have any links to dual video tandems ?


wetrock

Feb 28, 2012, 1:10 AM
Post #22 of 42 (2975 views)
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Re: [billvon] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

 i cut the handels touches out. I cut out it as the camera rises to touch the handles (brakes) and cut back in as the camera lowers. it makes for a smother transition or I pick in and out frames that look very roughly similar in general head positions, or simalar frames in color position and proportions. that way it is hard to tell and time has passed in the edit. There is the odd time the tandem masters have grabbed the brakes with out it really showing up on camera. the handel touches happen in roughly the same places so its not to hard to scrub and edit them out. Some dropzones edit their hand cam footage down to about 6 minutes and just keying in on the highlights. that cuts out allot of canopy video, but not all of the canopy ride is interesting and it still tells the story well. Which makes it easy to cut out the shit and have it look better overall. When i have customers sitting over my shoulder watching me edit they usually don't want me to edit much of anything. They want every little bit of the camera shake, camera handle touches and the camera got left on now one knew it was running video they can get. The students see their video with different eyes. Where i see shaky cam the student remembers this disorientating flip and massive airflow flowing over their body. Where i see painful to look at movement of the camera as the TM grabs the brakes. The student rememebers the tandem master is grabing those handels that make me turn.


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Feb 28, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #23 of 42 (2942 views)
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Re: [wetrock] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

Handcam video being " generally " cheap low quality video doesn't make sense to me.

We use Sony cx150 video cameras for handcam which (correct me if I'm wrong ) is what most outside videos are shot on.

As for the stills (we use GoPro for stills ), I have a 16"x20" blow up of a GoPro still at home that looks awesome! It's not dlsr but most people can't tell the difference. And, just to reiterate what I stated earlier in this thread, I think outside video/stills is worth more money if it's done with better camera equipment than used on handcam video/stills jumps. I personally would stack the tandem stills from my dz against outside stills any day. It is just another angle.

It seems like handcam is being labeled " low quality " because it's relatively new or it's not being done properly, not because it's " handcam ".

And for handles checks and grabbing toggles, if you watch the videos I linked to earlier in this thread, I use my free hand ( right ) to do checks on right side and visually look over to the reserve handle. As a rule I am in the toggles before I turn on the camera after opening so any hand movement just changes the camera angle. Full flight is actually a pretty cool angle except for the shiny spot on top of my head. Wink


rastapara  (Student)

Feb 28, 2012, 6:45 AM
Post #24 of 42 (2935 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that selling video's to tandem passengers is a matter of economics. You know, supply and demand...

When I look at my home dz (182 dz) I can see that since we've dropped outside video from our product package and only offer handcam we sell video on 80ish% of our tandemjumps, with hardly any salespitch. With outside video this used to be around 30ish%/ 40ish% with lots of pitch effort.

Also we've stopped editing video's. At first this was an experiment and we made the rough cut cheaper. When we saw that most people didn't want to pay the extra 10 bucks for an edit we made it permanent.

To make our rough cut more attractive we decided to upload all the videos to youtube (of course asking the customer permission first!!!). This really boosted sales and took little to no effort. People were really happy to be able to show friends their adventure just a couple of hours after the jump (and share it on facebook and the lot). And this is what showed us what the value of the product was for our customers, proof and memory of the jump. Its nt the cool edit that makes them the Hero of the day, its the fact they jumped out of the plane!

Also this enabled us to give our customers true HD video, something that is a burden with hd-dvd's versus blue ray versus what the customer has to play said systems.

Now we can make a lot more customers happy with our product in a day. (We've been in the situation where we had to turn customers down because we were full for the day because of outside video, I cuts about half our capacity*)

I cant proof if customers are just as happy as they would've been with outside video, but this offcourse is rather subjective. But in general they are happy with the product they've bought (mind you this is in first place the jump, the video is a "side dish"). And people keep coming and we are selling more and more.

These results show us that there is a demand and who are we to not provide this service? Tongue In the end they are consumers and have a choice to buy a tandem with handcam or go somewhere else and buy a tandem with outside video. This model has proved it self to us.

If the operation would run on goodwill, happy thougts and video-artistic-fulfillment** of the videostaff we would use a different model. But it seems it runs on avgas, jetfuel and money... (supply and demand)

(*note in another economic situation, for instance a big turbine DZ, were it is important to fill the slots and keep the thing flying, outside video might be a good thing)

(** for artistic fullfillment you might want to consider making a real cool documentary thing like crosswind. If its cool enough Ill buy it. And remember, you're not in it for the money you are an artist Tongue. Crowdfund your hobby on kickstarter or something, super cool!Cool)

(*** note that I do not talk about safety since I do not have a TM rating so I don't think I'm entitled to judge this - this is just the economics part for some small DZ's)


BMFin

Feb 28, 2012, 11:25 AM
Post #25 of 42 (2899 views)
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Re: [wetrock] Outside video vs. Handcam [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BMFin

Do you have any links to dual video tandems ?

http://youtu.be/IKzJ7adXz7A

here is one with two cameras. CX115 and Go pro HD.

Adding some stills to the end of the video makes it even better IMO, but takes a bit more time. Maby next season I will start adding stills to all of the videos too.


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