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"Coach" pulls for a student!

 

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Deisel  (D 31661)

Feb 21, 2012, 2:01 PM
Post #1 of 111 (14279 views)
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"Coach" pulls for a student! Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/...youtube_gdata_player

For those that cant download the video, heres the scenario; an AFFI is acting as a coach for a student with 18 jumps. At pull time the student cant find his PC handle. After several tries the student grabs his reserve handle. The coach dumps him out using the reserve side JM, BOC deployment handle.

So heres my question; lets imagine that this is an actual coach, and not an AFFI. Who thinks that this would have been an appropriate response for a coach in this type of situation? Why or why not? And yes, I already know that a coach is not supposed to pull for a student. Let's discuss the proper role of coaches here, and the potential for making some much needed changes to the rating.

So whos up for a little academic discussion?
Smile


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 21, 2012, 2:14 PM
Post #2 of 111 (14121 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

This would not have been an appropriate response for a coach (assuming we are talking about a USPA-rated coach here, as it's the only country's rating that I know). Assuming altitude was still available to observe, the coach can continue to observe, but coaches aren't trained to pull for students, and shouldn't be pulling for students. At some point, though, the coach needs to get some space and deploy for him/herself, and it's possible the act of turning and tracking will cause the student to finally give up on the main and go to the reserve. This student had already tried four times at the point the instructor pulls for him, and I'm not sure I agree with the assessment in the video's description that the student "reacted properly and continued to be altitude aware and was ready to deploy his reserve with both hands on his handles." I don't see that "readiness" in the video, but it's possible that's what the instructor saw when he/she was going in for the pull.

Quote:
and the potential for making some much needed changes to the rating.

Such as? There's nothing in the specifics of this video that would lead me to recommend a change. Curious as to what you think are the much needed changes.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Feb 21, 2012, 5:02 PM)


ghost47  (D License)

Feb 21, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #3 of 111 (14099 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't see that "readiness" in the video, but it's possible that's what the instructor saw when he/she was going in for the pull.
I don't see the student going for reserve either. But, if the student was going for his reserve, it seems dangerous for anyone (AFF-I or coach) to be pulling the main. If the AFF-I pulls the main as the student pulls the reserve, isn't that a bigger problem?

(I am neither a coach nor an instructor, so I'm genuinely asking.)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 21, 2012, 2:47 PM
Post #4 of 111 (14069 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Let's discuss the proper role of coaches here, and the potential for making some much needed changes to the rating.

First off, it's not a PC, and the AFFI didn't pull the reserve side BOC release. It's a BOC mounted ripcord that activates a spring loaded pilot chute, and the AFFI pulls the ripcord. You can see the spring loaded PC and the channel on the rig for the ripcord.

Still not on the coach rating topic, the problem here is gear related, and could possibly have been avoided with a better gear check. The rig he's jumping has an adjustable lateral, and you can see by how much the rig is moving around on hsi back, it's not adjusted properly. If it was adjusted properly, the BOC mounted ripcord would have been where it was suppsed to be, and the student might have had an easier time finding it.

Another factor was that the tail of the lateral strap was not secured, and this is what the student was pulling on. If this strap had been properly secured, it would not have been available for the student to grab, and the student wouldn't have fixated on it.

In terms of the coach rating, why do you feel that this incident has anything to do with the ability of a coach to pull for another jumper? As already mentioned, you can create more problems than you solve if you're in the wrong place or doing the wrong thing at pull time. Pulling for students should be limited to AFFIs who have been trained for that, and who have proven themselves to be able to handle that situation.


Ron

Feb 21, 2012, 3:15 PM
Post #5 of 111 (14036 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At pull time the student cant find his PC handle.

Not a PC, it is a ripcord.

Quote:
After several tries the student grabs his reserve handle.

1. Student took to many tries.... Twice and then reserve.
2. Student didn't look like he grabbed a reserve handle.

Quote:
The coach dumps him out using the reserve side JM, BOC deployment handle.

1. The *AFFI* dumped him out.
2. He used the MAIN side ripcord.

Quote:
So heres my question; lets imagine that this is an actual coach, and not an AFFI. Who thinks that this would have been an appropriate response for a coach in this type of situation?

It is not his job, but it is hard to fault success in this case. I pulled for people long before I had a rating.... But that does not mean it is a good practice or should be.

If the jumper DID have his hand on the reserve and pulled it while the coach pulled the main and they both entangled and the student died.... Would that have been an ok outcome?

Quote:
Let's discuss the proper role of coaches here, and the potential for making some much needed changes to the rating.

There is no "much needed changes to the rating". You want to be allowed to pull for a student? We have a rating for that, it is called AFF.


wayneflorida  (D 30566)

Feb 21, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #6 of 111 (14024 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

13 seconds from wave off until instructor pulled rip cord. About 2,364 feetUnsure

Student needs to review EPs.


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 21, 2012, 3:47 PM
Post #7 of 111 (14004 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not going to comment the student's actions , but that rig need some really close look from a rigger. ~ 2 seconds delay from pulling the ripcord to the PC launch is a problem!


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 21, 2012, 4:31 PM
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Re: [Deyan] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
2 seconds delay from pulling the ripcord to the PC launch is a problem!

Well all I can say is it's a wings with a spring loaded pilot chute and that set up sucks ass! Another dz I know of kept having the same issues (at times they totaled) if the closing loop was too long, and so they had to keep the loops super short making it near impossible to close the rigs. Students really had issues closing them.

The loops were changed to be moved from the tray location to the bottom flap and they still had that issue if the loop was too long, it was solved by changing out to throw outs.

If I was going to order student rigs today with spring loaded PC in a Wings rigs it wouldn't be a choice because they suck like that. Then again I wouldn't be ordering spring loaded pc's.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Feb 21, 2012, 4:59 PM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 21, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #9 of 111 (13937 views)
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Re: [Deyan] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Main containers these days really aren't designed for spring loaded pilot chutes.

A closing loop that isn't really slick, that zig zags at all between flaps, can have enough friction to slow the container opening. (And it would be worse, as Stratostar pointed out, for a loop coming from the pack tray or reserve wall, rather than the bottom flap.)

Plus, the large stiffener that is typical in the bottom flap can restrict the pilot chute if the PC is stuffed well under it. There's a lever effect, requiring less force at the grommet, to hold the PC in place.

Instructors who were around when spring loaded PC's were used with the American AFF program would have a better idea how likely it was to get hesitations in PC extraction.

And then sometimes the PC jumps around in the burble for at least a second...


tmccann  (A 61009)

Feb 21, 2012, 4:56 PM
Post #10 of 111 (13928 views)
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Re: [wayneflorida] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
13 seconds from wave off until instructor pulled rip cord. About 2,364 feetUnsure

Student needs to review EPs.

No comment on the conclusion, but AFFI's altitrack in the corner at the 49 sec mark reads >4k. Student waved off at 30 sec delay.

*shrug*


BASE469  (D 14328)

Feb 21, 2012, 5:10 PM
Post #11 of 111 (13919 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Imagining that this were indeed a coach performing this skydive....it appears to be a jump in the G category, either the first or third dive flow. Isn't the role of the coach, in this category, to observe the student tracking from the two way? I believe that the student is supposed to track, or should be capable of tracking 50' at this stage. The coach is to observe the track, or, within 500' of the assigned breakoff altitude attempt to gain the attention of the student to breakoff by waving him/her off. Should the student fail leave the coach is to gain adequate separation and deploy. Are you suggesting that coaches chase tracking student just in case one of them fails to deploy and then deploy them? That's a pretty bold position to take given the average flying skills of most coaches. This isn't to slam the coaches, but to be honest, relatively few of them have, or should need, those skills. We need to keep a consisent and simple bottom end for them. How many plans should they have for a breakoff routine? I agree with others above that believe the student needs refreshed in missing handle procedures....and that was a horrible PC launch....


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 21, 2012, 5:18 PM
Post #12 of 111 (13913 views)
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Re: [tmccann] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No comment on the conclusion, but AFFI's altitrack in the corner at the 49 sec mark reads >4k. Student waved off at 30 sec delay.

You are correct. The poster who quoted times and altitudes was probably assuming the where the student waved off. Lucky for the student, it appears that they did indeed begin the pull procedure on the high side. The AFFI maintains altitude awareness, and you can see their altimeter during the jump.

However, the first time I watched the video, I was also 'uneasy' about the amount of time between the wave off and the eventual deployment. It seemed to go on for longer than it should have, but that was before I noted the AFFIs altimeter.


devildog  (C 40302)

Feb 21, 2012, 5:36 PM
Post #13 of 111 (13887 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just out of curiosity for all the instructors out there, whats the likelihood of those gloves causing the student to miss that pvc pipe? I picked up some gloves shortly after I got my B (for high alt) and on the ground I was practicing feeling my hackey over and over and over just because I figured the whole thing would feel a lot different, especially in air and I wanted to be able to find it. I was just wondering if @ 18 jumps that would be a factor.


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 21, 2012, 7:21 PM
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Re: [devildog] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

That was actually the first thing I thought, he seems to be fumbling around grabbing things, possibly because he isn't used to gloves.

I did most of my AFF and probably a good amount of my first 200 jumps with gloves, but only after practicing a lot on the ground. I have no issues with them now, even with my freefly pud that's pretty hard to feel thru the gloves.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Feb 21, 2012, 8:08 PM
Post #15 of 111 (13780 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

It looks like the instructor actually punched the container to get the PC to come out...that sure was a long hesitation before that PC finally launched.


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Feb 21, 2012, 9:00 PM
Post #16 of 111 (13739 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

All started from training & gear check - a nice lateral webbing is flying there at ripcord side.

Does the Coach / AFF I checked his student before the jump ??

A coach who is not an AFF I should not touch the student - he was not trained for that - it could lead to a worse story for both & BTW there would not be any video if it was a coach with less than 200 jumps.

The student was lucky for being escorted with an AFF I otherwise he might go to AAD activation level - all he did at pull time was not smart or right - all goes to training BUT he could be well trained & act different.

This opens again the big question: Does 100 jumps makes a skydiver ready to be a coach or it should be minimum 200 + jumps & the ability to jump with a camera for training & education.

Coach is NOT an Instructor & I'm not sure that a 100 jumps person being a coach is the best call.

Life are not easy.

Cheers


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 21, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #17 of 111 (13732 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Since the instructor was performing within the privileges of his rating, all is good. Since AFFi's train for this, and coaches do not, there's no reason to question why AFFI's are allowed to pull for students while coaches do not. AFFI's are allowed to pull for students since they plan and train for it.

If this were a USPA Coach instead of an AFFI, this would have ended well too. The student was altitude aware, and was reaching for his reserve when he got pulled out.

There's definitely some opportunities for corrective training, but I don't see a major problem with anything that happened on that jump.

_Am


billeisele  (A 5643)

Feb 21, 2012, 9:10 PM
Post #18 of 111 (13728 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

interesting question

if a coach performs an action that is beyond their rating and there is an injury, what happens?

to split the hair even further, an AFFI on a coach jump takes an action that is within the rating and there is an injury due to that action, then what??

find the right lawyer and both examples are a problem


having said that, as an AFFI I've pulled for a student on a non-AFF jump and would do it again


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Feb 21, 2012, 9:17 PM
Post #19 of 111 (13723 views)
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Re: [billeisele] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Any question about what happens when lawyers get involved are only answered one single way: The instructor goes broke. This is true whether the instructor was %100 in the right, or %100 in the wrong. The cause of the situation has no bearing on the outcome - either way, the instructor goes broke defending himself.

The only difference is the ability for us, and the people that control ratings to armchair quarterback the whole thing.

I love armchair quarterbacking, and I can't fault the instructor for operating within the privileges of his rating.

_Am


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 22, 2012, 1:04 AM
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~ just sayin' [In reply to] Can't Post

Not suggesting the student here should know it or do it...but if ya ever find yourself with adjustable lats all the way out like that, thumb of the left hand under the MLW and pushing out brings the container back in so ya can reach the deployment handle.


....just sayin'


ufk22  (D 16168)

Feb 22, 2012, 6:16 AM
Post #21 of 111 (13606 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

My take on this, without getting into the gear issue, as adjustable laterals can loosen up and student gear is "one-size-fits-no-one".\
Then there is also the "2 tries, go directly to silver" that the student ignored.
But...
If this was an AFFI,
1. bad exit, took 10 seconds to get into position for the student to dock.
2. Pulled with the wrong hand while apparently holding the students arm grip. There seemed ample oportunity to get that harness grip.
The reason a coach shouldn't do this, beyond just "he doesn't have the rating", is just the way this was done.
There is a reason you should pull with the right hand while holding a harness grip at the hip with your left hand. What if the student got totally floaty right then? With the arm grip, he would have been pulled head low, pulled on to his right side, or even inverted. With the hesitation seen in the video, worst case the pilot chute might have actually gone under the "coach". Good time had by all. With a harness grip at the hip, you can keep the hips low. Plus, when there is a pilot chute delay, like this, you maintain full control over the student in a position to assist. Can't necessarily do that holding an arm grip.
To be honest, this actually looked more like a coach deployment than an AFFI.
Thankfully, just fodder for a discussion.


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Feb 22, 2012, 8:58 AM)


Deisel  (D 31661)

Feb 22, 2012, 6:45 AM
Post #22 of 111 (13580 views)
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Re: [Deisel] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all of the insightful input here guys. Personally, and Im sure that Im not the only one, I have never seen a spring loaded PC and would have no clue as to what issues could result from their use. Learning has occurred.

The hypothetical that Id like to discuss some is how coaches are trained for this event. Were taught to turn, track and dump at pull time. But this is largely to get the attention of a jumper that may have lost altitude awareness. In this case the jumper was well aware that it was pull time. The coach deploying his own parachute would do nothing to correct the issue. So the question I pose is this; do we honestly expect a coach to bail out when his student is obviously having a problem? Would you?

ETA - I'm not saying that coaches should chase students down. They arent trained for it and its not safe. But should we look at the EP's that are currently in place for this?


(This post was edited by Deisel on Feb 22, 2012, 6:48 AM)


wayneflorida  (D 30566)

Feb 22, 2012, 7:16 AM
Post #23 of 111 (13552 views)
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Re: [wayneflorida] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
13 seconds from wave off until instructor pulled rip cord. About 2,364 feetUnsure

Student needs to review EPs.

I should clarify my post.

Student decended about 2,364 feet in the 13 seconds between wave off and pull by instructor.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 22, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #24 of 111 (13511 views)
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Re: [stratostar] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
2 seconds delay from pulling the ripcord to the PC launch is a problem!

Well all I can say is it's a wings with a spring loaded pilot chute and that set up sucks ass! Another dz I know of kept having the same issues (at times they totaled) if the closing loop was too long, and so they had to keep the loops super short making it near impossible to close the rigs. Students really had issues closing them.

The loops were changed to be moved from the tray location to the bottom flap and they still had that issue if the loop was too long, it was solved by changing out to throw outs.

If I was going to order student rigs today with spring loaded PC in a Wings rigs it wouldn't be a choice because they suck like that. Then again I wouldn't be ordering spring loaded pc's.

I'm curious...WHY a spring P.C.?

Are there many DZ's that use this?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 22, 2012, 8:11 AM
Post #25 of 111 (13503 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] "Coach" pulls for a student! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I'm curious...WHY a spring P.C.?

Are there many DZ's that use this?

No idea if this is the case here, but at our DZ we use a springloaded pc for the first couple freefall jumps for ex-staticline students. After they've demonstrated they can get stable after getting unstable, and can reliably pull stable, they are transitioned over to a BOC.


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