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Ending up on level with tandems?

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #26 of 52 (989 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You need to pull little lower....
We're talking about students here. They should be pulling where they are comfortable...without having to worry about TMs pulling on level with them.

In reply to:
Little too much when you pull at 5k with .9 loaded triathelone, don't you think???
Nope, not at all.

In reply to:
If you have A license and cut in front of my tandem and not go anywhere due to low wing loading you are gonna get bitched at.
Question: Why would a qualified TM let himself be put into that position....with anybody, A-license or other?
Were I the S&TA, it would be the TM getting "bitched at".

Talking to them about trying to avoid tandems? Yes, I would agree with that.
Cutting you off in the landing pattern? Yes, I would agree that the "other guy" would need a bitching out.
In the air as we are talking? No so.

Simple really. Protect the young jumpers. They are less capable of protecting themselves.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 14, 2012, 8:15 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #27 of 52 (983 views)
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Re: [Ron] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a TI, I try to avoid the students since I can. But a student should know that they are supposed to avoid the tandems as well.
Yes. Exactly!


stayhigh  (F 111)

Feb 14, 2012, 8:13 AM
Post #28 of 52 (982 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

the guy in question is not a student.

what about the thing i said, tandem needs to stop spiraling???

You need to stop twisting my words.

I've also said, i avoid student canopy in air like a plague.

If I'm in a final and a kid with a license cuts me off, that kid is gonna get bitched at by me and my s&ta.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Feb 14, 2012, 8:15 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2012, 8:21 AM
Post #29 of 52 (970 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
the guy in question is not a student.
That makes no difference in the air. Student or not, avoidance is prime. A TM, hopefully, has the skills necessary to avoid getting into those situations.

Edited to add:
Shah lists 61 jumps over 3 years. Not exactly what you could call an experienced jumper regardless of his A license, eh??

In reply to:
what about the thing i said, tandem needs to stop spiraling???
That was good-to-go. No need to reply to that.

In reply to:
You need to stop twisting my words.
No twist at all. Replying to your written comment.

In reply to:
I've also said, i avoid student canopy in air like a plague.
Which is exactly what I'm expounding. Good stuff.

In reply to:
If I'm in a final and a kid with a license cuts me off, that kid is gonna get bitched at by me and my s&ta.
Rightfully so...for anyone cutting off another on final..regardless of license level. Yes.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 14, 2012, 8:25 AM)


Ron

Feb 14, 2012, 9:54 AM
Post #30 of 52 (941 views)
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Re: [shah269] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree I need to start pulling at 4k

Pull at whatever altitude makes you comfortable. 61 jumps over 3 years is not, IMO, "current".

Stay within your comfort zone no matter what outside pressure you get.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2012, 10:46 AM
Post #31 of 52 (920 views)
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Re: [Ron] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I agree I need to start pulling at 4k

Pull at whatever altitude makes you comfortable. 61 jumps over 3 years is not, IMO, "current".

Stay within your comfort zone no matter what outside pressure you get.

Thank you, Ron. Hopefully Shah listens and learns.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 14, 2012, 10:52 AM
Post #32 of 52 (915 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Talk to the student about what? How the student should have avoided the tandem?

Turn right to avoid collision.

>A TM worth his salt will always be better able to handle an off landing, knees or no
>knees. Period.

Disagree. Sometimes TM's have passengers who cannot handle hard landings, and thus they have to be more careful about where they land.

>You cannot convince me that a TM cannot perform better than a student.

Of course he can. But he has a lot more weight to land with than a student.

>Show me a TM who can't....and then pull his rating.

And show me a student who can't turn right to avoid a collision - and put him back in the FJC.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 14, 2012, 3:49 PM
Post #33 of 52 (880 views)
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Re: [shah269] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... Should the student ... turn left ...
"

........................................................................

That would be the worst possible move, since everyone else is expecting you to follow the ancient aeronautical ... heck ... nautical tradition of both people turning right when they are at risk of collision.

This tradition makes the most sense when you meet nose-to-nose.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 14, 2012, 4:21 PM
Post #34 of 52 (870 views)
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Re: [shah269] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

>If I as a student find myself on level with a tandem at well over 3kft, is there a
>standard procedure? Should the student / low number jumper dive, flat turn left, or go
>into deep breaks? And if by accident the same situation occurs at 1kft what is the
>standard procedure?

As a general rule vertical separation is a good thing. If you are descending more slowly than the tandem try to get above him; if you are descending more rapidly than the tandem try to get below him.

However even if you end up on the same level - there's no reason you can't land safely WITH the tandem. Just fly a standard pattern and follow the usual traffic rules. Try to avoid getting above and behind a tandem because their wake turbulence is pretty significant.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2012, 4:30 PM
Post #35 of 52 (867 views)
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Re: [billvon] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>A TM worth his salt will always be better able to handle an off landing, knees or no
>knees. Period.

Disagree. Sometimes TM's have passengers who cannot handle hard landings, and thus they have to be more careful about where they land.
I see what you are saying...sometime the TI may not have a choice on how he sets them down when landing off. True enough as it stands. That also applies to everyone as you well know. You could also say that when landing at the LZ. Looking at the big picture, I will disagree with your disagreement and repeat that TIs are better equipped to handle off landings than canopy-flying students and are much less likely to be hurt. Therefore, the benefit of the doubt should be given to the young jumper. Simple.

Are we arguing about who is more expendable here? Tandem student, solo student? I hope not.

In reply to:
>You cannot convince me that a TM cannot perform better than a student.

Of course he can. But he has a lot more weight to land with than a student.
True....and all the more skills to handle that weight.

In reply to:
...show me a student who can't turn right to avoid a collision - and put him back in the FJC.
You are too kind....we just may be burying him instead.
Unsure


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #36 of 52 (868 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This tradition makes the most sense when you meet nose-to-nose.

Ooooooo....that will drive home the lesson, fer shure.


dthames  (B 37674)

Feb 15, 2012, 3:44 PM
Post #37 of 52 (821 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
<snip>But if you find yourself on the same level as a tandem and your spot is good, spiral down a bit to get separation. If THEY are spiraling down, then hold a little brakes and let them get away. <snip>

In the situation where I see it wise to descend faster and gain some vertical separation, I have a question about methods. If you keep a cautious and gentle spiral and you are rolling, say about 30 degrees, would you lose altitude faster with a toggle turn or a rear riser turn. I have not had the chance to do such an experiment yet. I did do a gentle toggle spiral and the separation I gained was less than I wanted. I repeated it several times, doing a couple of 360 each time. FYI, it was another student, not a tandem.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 15, 2012, 3:52 PM
Post #38 of 52 (817 views)
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Re: [dthames] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you keep a cautious and gentle spiral and you are rolling, say about 30
>degrees, would you lose altitude faster with a toggle turn or a rear riser turn.

In general a toggle turn. However be careful spiraling down; often that's the most dangerous thing you can do in a crowded sky.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 15, 2012, 4:18 PM
Post #39 of 52 (809 views)
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Re: [billvon] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>If you keep a cautious and gentle spiral and you are rolling, say about 30
>degrees, would you lose altitude faster with a toggle turn or a rear riser turn.

In general a toggle turn. However be careful spiraling down; often that's the most dangerous thing you can do in a crowded sky.

To add:
Spiraling could put you on level with someone else.
It could clog up the landing pattern by reducing vertical separation with adjacent landers.
And it requires heads-up awareness of surrounding traffic.

And on top of that, you'll want to keep an eye on altitude and position as well as traffic. You will not want to spiral down to such a low altitude as to not be able to make it back to your target.


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Feb 15, 2012, 11:26 PM
Post #40 of 52 (756 views)
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Re: [dthames] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

Forget about spiraling, it's generally bad thing in traffic and espetially if you already have some discomforting traffic (let such manevrous be doing by the TM)
As it was sayd there is no big troubles to just set your landing approach with the tandem - just give them way and distance, fly your pattern find your slot and free spot... while doing it it's good to trying to get vertical separation but whithout radical manevrous (espetially at lower alti) just adjust your descent rate by applying/releasing the brakes

P/S One common rule for avoiding somthing:
Keep your eyes to where you want to fly! not to where you don't want(what you try to avoid)!


(This post was edited by NWPoul on Feb 15, 2012, 11:28 PM)


velvetjo  (D License)

Feb 16, 2012, 1:41 AM
Post #41 of 52 (746 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, tell us about some of your off landings as a TI. Sounds like you're pretty experienced with them. Got any good tips for how to keep Granny's ankles intact in a soybean field on a no-wind day?

Lance


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 16, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #42 of 52 (727 views)
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Re: [velvetjo] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

Give her a jumpsuit with grippers and have her use them to help hold her knees and legs up for landing, make sure you give good instruction on how to not put her feet or legs down on landing and if you have to crash land, roll over and take like a paid professional....Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #43 of 52 (693 views)
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Re: [velvetjo] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, tell us about some of your off landings as a TI. Sounds like you're pretty experienced with them. Got any good tips for how to keep Granny's ankles intact in a soybean field on a no-wind day?

Lance
Yeah...
1. don't land in the soybean field.
2. if you can't think of any way to protect your student, get remedial training.
3. pull higher so you'll have the altitude to make it back
4. spotting is your friend
5. go-arounds are preferable to soybean fields
6. don't let the students force you into an off-field landing
(which was the point of it all)

Quote:
TIs are better equipped to handle off landings than canopy-flying students and are much less likely to be hurt.
You disagree with that?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 16, 2012, 8:15 AM)


shah269  (A 59581)

Feb 16, 2012, 8:54 AM
Post #44 of 52 (668 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

So pull a little lower and land a little off.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #45 of 52 (659 views)
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Re: [shah269] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So pull a little lower and land a little off.
Get video.
LaughLaugh


shah269  (A 59581)

Feb 16, 2012, 11:23 AM
Post #46 of 52 (625 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So pull a little lower and land a little off.
Get video.
LaughLaugh
When i get 100 jumps ;-)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Feb 16, 2012, 1:00 PM
Post #47 of 52 (604 views)
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Re: [shah269] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So pull a little lower and land a little off.
Absolutely not!
Vertical separation is nearly irrelevant at opening. Horizontal separation is what counts. Vertical separation becomes important close to landing when we give up our horizontal separation in order to hit the field.
If there is no room for students and tandems to both land on on the same pass then you need separate passes. However that is generally not necessary. I have vertical separation issues with both students and novices on most jumps where I jump. We are landing in separate but close landing areas but a foolish move by a junior jumper has the capacity to endanger my passenger and myself. I consider it my job to keep track of all jumpers that will be landing at the same time as myself.
It is not those who open at the same altitude as me that give me the most grief, it is those who I catch. With most passengers I descend faster than a student canopy carrying most people. If it is a student I simply pick my spot and spiral past them and that is that. If is a novice I do the same and have a teaching moment a bit later.
In your case I would tell you that you have an obligation to stay away from the tandems. You need to think about who is descending faster, look around and below before spiraling to get away from the tandem if that is the solution that you think works, and fly in a manner that is predictable to those around you. Are you landing in the same part of the field as the tandems? Do you have the option of turning your pattern so it takes you farther from rather than closer to the tandem?
This sounds like a really good issue for you to bring up on safety day. You may find there is a protocol already in place. You may learn a bit about how the local TMs think under canopy. Communication is good.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 16, 2012, 4:55 PM
Post #48 of 52 (576 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, sir for the voice of reason.
I would be honored to fly in the sky with you....just not on a tandem. Tandem scares me.
LaughLaugh


velvetjo  (D License)

Feb 16, 2012, 6:18 PM
Post #49 of 52 (559 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, shit happens sometimes. Gotta take a hit for the team once in a while. Smile

I'm still wondering if Pops has actually done any live tandems or not. A couple of seasons chucking drogues can change perspectives, eh?

Lance


shah269  (A 59581)

Feb 16, 2012, 6:48 PM
Post #50 of 52 (552 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Ending up on level with tandems? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
This sounds like a really good issue for you to bring up on safety day. You may find there is a protocol already in place. You may learn a bit about how the local TMs think under canopy. Communication is good.
Will do thank you!


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