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Paracommander work drawings

 

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lilchief  (D 78149)

Feb 13, 2012, 8:25 AM
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Paracommander work drawings Can't Post

Hi all!

I'm trying to use the design of the ParaCommander for a underwater application for my bachelor thesis. But in order to downscale it as correctly as possible, I'm in the need of detailed drawing. Does anyone have them? Are the drawings available?

I did find some useful info at parachutehistory.com that I can work on, but a more detailed description on the gores that have slots in them and dimensions on the slots would be really helpful.

I know there are some experienced riggers out there. and I hope some of you want to help :)

I've called Strong, Airborne Systems, ChutingStar, Paragear, and PD(R&D was not avalible at the time). None had any drawings - but could provide me with good info about the PC Mk1, Mk2 the Pappillon and some stories from the past :)

Please PM me er post here.

I did search for it on the forums - but as you can see, i didn't manage to dig it up.

Thanks for you help :=)


Sincy78  (D 7363)

Feb 13, 2012, 9:43 AM
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Re: [lilchief] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

A very good friend o fmine is the original inventor of the PC. I'll see if he's up for helping you.


lilchief  (D 78149)

Feb 13, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Re: [Sincy78] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

=O

AWSM!!! Thanks!!! SmileSmileSmileSmile


RiggerLee

Feb 13, 2012, 1:32 PM
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Re: [lilchief] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

I would also be curious. I might just get a wild hair up my ass and build my self a new one.

Lee


Sincy78  (D 7363)

Feb 23, 2012, 9:29 AM
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Re: [lilchief] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Send me your e-mail addresses and I'll send you a very interesting report on the aerodynamics of parafoils


anj4de

Mar 15, 2012, 3:28 AM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would also be curious. I might just get a wild hair up my ass and build my self a new one.

Lee

If you are seriously thinking about it...I might be interested in a Mk1 Jumbo made of ZP...Smile Please keep me in the loop...

thanks
Uwe


Unstable  (D 28930)

Mar 18, 2012, 12:36 AM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

 The more I think of it the more I realize that building a new PC really wouldn't be that hard..I think the material costs, however, may surpirse folks looking to get one to use as a novelty more or less... Tongue. Older jumpers, is the PC cut on a block of Bias? The skirt is a 4-needle stitch? That may be hard to get ahold of...

The PC's were made of Taffada (spelling?) ~ I wonder if they ever used a more modern Lo-porosity fabric, and if it would affect the opening characteristics at all..


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Mar 18, 2012, 6:16 AM
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Re: [Unstable] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Paracommanders were block constructed. In the 1970's, the last version of the parachute, the RW Paracommander was made out of ripstop and had dacron lines. I have never jumped an RW PC so I can't comment on the opening characteristics. It was a copy of the Mark I so I imagine that the flight characteristics would be similar but it would pack a lot smaller with the newer materials.


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Mar 18, 2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: [Unstable] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Shaun,

Quote:
I wonder if they ever used a more modern Lo-porosity fabric, and if it would affect the opening characteristics at all..

In the late 60's, Gary Lewis out of Seattle built a Mark I P/C out of 2.2 oz ripstop fabric; the same fabric as used in the Crossbow canopy.

It open really ratty; but it always opened, at least what I saw of it and I saw it open many times in competitions back in those days.

The only other person that I know of that built their own P/C was a member of the US Army team sometime around the late 60's. I had some correspondence with him about the canopy but know very little of it or how it worked.

JerryBaumchen


RiggerLee

Mar 18, 2012, 1:20 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

I never could get my hands on a RW PC. What exactly was it built from? Was it 1.5 ripstop or was it a 1.1 ounce f-111? Wasn't the piglet ripstop? I want to say that it was almost as heavy as ballon cloth like 1.9 ounce. What was the Strong starlight made from? Wasn't it f-111. That's another one I could never seem to get my hands on. I heard the opening were wicked. Were they the first to put a slider on a round?

A lot of the shit I've been doing lately is a lot of hurry up and wait. I'm going up to Dallas next week to look at a couple of canopies they are thinking about for the next system but basically I'm twiddling my thumbs waiting for them to build another air frame.

You know I just happen to have a 1/4 in double neadle sitting here with a french fell and a 1/2 inch tape foot.... There just happens to be a big roll of red f-111 over in the corner... I think it's got about 375 yards on it. I just looked on the shelf and noticed that I've got a big spool of 550. I've been tripping over a spool of 1 inch tube webbing for years now.

It gets really dangerous around here when I get board.

I wonder if f-111 0-3 would hold up on opening? How hard would the opening be? Might need a little more venting around the crown. A little hi po around the apex like a russion pc or that early american pap that I have might help with that. Any thoughts about updating to lighter weight tighter fabric?

Didn't some one say they had the patterns?

Lee


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Mar 18, 2012, 1:26 PM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Lee,

Quote:
A little hi po around the apex

The very original Mark I P/C's had 1.6 Lo-Po fabric in the apex, not the taffeta fabric.

Also, the first colored P/C's, built in black/gold, for the Army team had this fabric in the apex.

Then Pioneer went to lots of colors and the Lo-Po fabric in the apex was changed to the taffeta fabric.

JerryBaumchen


frawley308  (D 9589)

Apr 6, 2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: [lilchief] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

I have owned a 27. Ft Russian PC and a 28 ft Jumbo PC in the past. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE PC's !!!!!!!! I am interested in building a brand new copy of a Jumbo PC. Are there enough PC lovers out there to jointly build a batch of them? I think that it is important to keep the vintage designs flying just as antique aircraft owners and warbird owners keep their history alive. anyone interested in this project please contact me. Blue Skies!
Frank Rawley D-9589
frankrawley@yahoo.com


RiggerLee

Apr 6, 2012, 2:49 PM
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Re: [frawley308] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got 375 yards of red f-111 setting in the corner, tape, and a lapseamer. If you send me a copy of the patern set I'll crank one out between ballutes.

Lee


frawley308  (D 9589)

Apr 6, 2012, 8:33 PM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's work on getting the plans. If not can we take the measurements off an old canopy and copy the construction technique? Can scale up a Mark I to the size of a jumbo?
Frank


winsor  (D 13715)

Apr 7, 2012, 4:16 AM
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Re: [Beatnik] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Paracommanders were block constructed. In the 1970's, the last version of the parachute, the RW Paracommander was made out of ripstop and had dacron lines. I have never jumped an RW PC so I can't comment on the opening characteristics. It was a copy of the Mark I so I imagine that the flight characteristics would be similar but it would pack a lot smaller with the newer materials.

I have an RWPC, and I love it.

It is basically a short-lined MK-1 constructed of 1.5 Ripstop with 325# dacron lines. Openings are great and landings are much softer than with taffeta MK-1s.

I have mulled over the prospect of making a ZP version with microline to see how it packed, opened and flew, but I do not have all the machines necessary to do the job properly without undue effort (and a few other excuses).

I think a PC made with modern materials would be a great canopy, but the reality is that packing it would never be as simple and convenient as with a ramair. D-bagged into a Wonderhog, mine takes about twice the time to pack, but Packing Cathy would do it for the same price at the Convention (just to give her people the experience, I suppose).

My guess is that a ZP PC with small enough pack volume to fit into (some) modern rigs would have enough of a market to justify its manufacture.

Frankly, if on a big way I would prefer it if everyone had PCs than 2:1 loaded crossbraces. I have lost too many friends to canopy collisions - and still have the scars from my own - and would like to load the dice a little more for survival, but that's just me.


Blue skies,

Winsor


ripcord4  (D 2238)

Apr 7, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #16 of 32 (3610 views)
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Re: [frawley308] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have owned a 27. Ft Russian PC and a 28 ft Jumbo PC in the past. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE PC's !!!!!!!! I am interested in building a brand new copy of a Jumbo PC. Are there enough PC lovers out there to jointly build a batch of them? I think that it is important to keep the vintage designs flying just as antique aircraft owners and warbird owners keep their history alive. anyone interested in this project please contact me. Blue Skies!
Frank Rawley D-9589
frankrawley@yahoo.com

Frank, I'd love to see a "modern" version of the PC, especially a Jumbo due to my advancing age! keep me in the loop if this progresses, please. (Don't forget the shorty sleeve.)

Larry
D2238


RiggerLee

Apr 7, 2012, 6:04 PM
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Re: [ripcord4] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have any 1.5 here. I wonder how f-111 would hold up? Other canopies are made from 40# tensal strength material. And the PDA spreads the load out nicely. F-111 has higher tensal strength then ZP. It fails a little diffrently, tears rather then straines at the seams. I think 0-3 is more then tight enough. I don't think the diffrence of zp would do any thing for you. It's not a cross brace. With f-111 I think you could bump up the diamiter just a bit and build it more like a RW pc with fewer turn slots, I don't see people sinking them in hard on purpouse shooting accercy. I've got PC's. I've got an early american Pap. Real early one. It's got a... band along the nose. It's like it blows inwards but in sink it pops out like the slat on a wing. That's my faverat canopy. I'd rather not try to take measurements off an exesting canopy. There's just too much shrinkage. I'd rather not take one of my classic canopies apart. It wold be much nicer if some one would be kind enough to contribute a pattern set? The measurements? Any body here from Pionear? Who built the Sparrow? How about a Thunder bow? That was one of my faves. Any body from Security out there?

Lee


RiggerLee

Aug 15, 2013, 9:06 AM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, no more games. I'm board. Board, board, board. I've got a big roll of F-111 in the corner, rolls of 1/2 in type three tape. a double needle with a puller. And time. It's time to build a PC.

I'm soliciting oppionions on what you would like to see in a modern version of a PC. Here are some questions I'm kicking around. What type of... tape for the radial seam, type of line, type of line attachment, length of line, slot configuration, diameter.

I've got an old mark 1 sitting here but it's ben modded to a comp configuration. I don't have the shape of the back panel. It's been cut out. It's such a commen mod that I'm inclined to leave the big vent there. How much increase does this cause in decent rate? I think I'll build it with the original Mark I turning slots. I doubt any newbies will want to sink it hard for competition. Does any one have the original line length and the length of the center line relative to the skirt. The lengths for the ellipse along the front edge are there but the whole thing has probable been short lined and I don't know by how much. How long do I really want them? How much are you sacrificing in terms of rate of decent? Again this will probable be jumped recreationally.

Lines. The damned thing has type three 550 on it. I do in fact have a whole roll on the shelf but I really want to cut down on the weight of the thing. I'm tossing around the idea of using a light Dacron or even specter. I'm even tossing around the idea of cascading them. Any thoughts on how bad the opening would be. I honestly think the lines only really help with the snatch force. I'm thinking about ways to simplify the line attachments. Keep the V tapes of go with something else?

Is F-111 too light? Or too tight? Should I be thinking about type 1 fabric for the Apex? Why did the early ones have that and why was it abandoned? Would it improve the opening? PC's seem to have been prone to burns. Or at least all the old ones I find have them. Will F-111 be too light and burn too easy? Would some of these other line types be more prone to burning or being burned? Spectra has a rather low melting point. Thoughts on sleeve material? I'd love to get away from that heavy cotton. Thoughts on shortening the sleeve so that the stableizers fold on top of the canopy when packed. Narrowing it so the canopy folds in thirds rather then to center. Burn issues?

I'd like for this to pack up small enough to fold into a large student rig. That's my goal. I have my own thoughts on all of this but there are some smart people here that date back to this time frame and have done quite a bit of experimentation. If you can save me from some time comsuming errors I'd love to hear the benefit of your expereance.

Lee


ripcord4  (D 2238)

Aug 15, 2013, 10:07 AM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Lee,

If you are going to make a PC - make a PC. If/when you start changing things, it's no longer a PC. And you will not know how it flies.

I have a PC line length chart...both the original length and the recommended short-line length. If you still need the data, let me know.


RiggerLee

Aug 15, 2013, 11:03 AM
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Re: [ripcord4] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually yes I do. I've been looking around but I don't think I have the line trims. The canopy I'm taking apart has already been modded and not very well.

Part of me would like to build it as an exact replica. The truth is that most people would not want to jump a conventional, belly wart, container that would hold it, pussies. Building it from modern lighter fabric and materials could greatly expand it's practicality.

Lee


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 15, 2013, 12:44 PM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Quite the project!

The Gary Lewis Paracommander book has some tips on lightening PC's although you'd be going further in going to lighter fabrics, like some of the later RW rounds. The book even mentions things like cascading suspension lines.

At least put it in a bag and not a sleeve; that'll save you a lot of volume and make piggyback rigs more practical.

Edit: I'd like to see that line length chart too, that ripcord4 has!


(This post was edited by pchapman on Aug 15, 2013, 12:45 PM)


piisfish

Aug 15, 2013, 1:02 PM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

ZPX for the fabric, HMA500 for the lines Smile


RiggerLee

Aug 15, 2013, 1:09 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen some malfunctions with PC in bags. I don't really like the way they deploy from them.



Lee


pchapman  (D 1014)

Aug 15, 2013, 1:21 PM
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Re: [RiggerLee] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

They are an accepted method, but fair enough. You get big long canopy dumped out more or less all at once. Bag vs. sleeve used to be one of the debates back in the day I hear...


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Aug 15, 2013, 1:49 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Paracommander work drawings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Peter,

Quote:
The Gary Lewis Paracommander book

While working at ParaGear, Gary also built his own PC out of ripstop material.

That thing would open so raggedly that whenever he went up on a jump, we would all stop and watch the opening.

But I never did see it malfunction.

JerryBaumchen


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