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learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel

 

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guineapiggie101

Feb 10, 2012, 9:45 AM
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learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel Can't Post

Did you find it tough to learn this in the beginning? Any tips on making the best use of tunnel time to freefly/backfly? I am hoping this doesn't turn into where it takes me a LONG time to learn the basics.

I did 15 minutes of tunnel time yesterday with a coach (highly recommended). Had a bit of trouble with learning on my back. Was all over the place. A bit frustrating.

One thing, I have to get my own suit. The coach did mention that my body structure/size could be an issue. I dunno.

I like it so far. Want to give it another spin. It's tiring though.


beowulf  (C License)

Feb 10, 2012, 9:49 AM
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

How quickly you learn is different for every person.

I have found the tunnel to be a total exercise in frustration, but very rewarding. Even after over 20 hours in the tunnel I still find it frustrating because I am always pushing myself to learn new and harder skills. Don't let the frustration hold you back from learning new things. Don't worry about how long it will take to reach your goals. Once you reach your goals you will find new goals to go after. It's fun to be able to be able to sitfly or fly on your head with others in the tunnel. Being able to do basic VFS 4 way is lots of fun.


guineapiggie101

Feb 10, 2012, 9:52 AM
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Re: [beowulf] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

I am going to stick with this.

It's fun, and it is safer than skydiving. After I get my suit, I will do some more training.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 10, 2012, 5:47 PM
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's fun, and it is safer than skydiving.

No, it's not. It's different.

Forget that it's a hazardous activity for even a moment and you'll risk hurting yourself or someone else.


Austintxflight

Feb 10, 2012, 6:14 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

although there is some danger involved, do you really believe that its not safer than skydiving? True there are risks involved, but come on, its far far safer than jumping. I don't see how you could even justify the idea that its not safer.

True there are risks involved and injuries can and do happen, not at the rate and severity that occurs with jumping.


(This post was edited by Austintxflight on Feb 10, 2012, 6:17 PM)


guineapiggie101

Feb 10, 2012, 6:19 PM
Post #6 of 31 (6834 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

I would think it IS safer than skydiving, considering, I don;t have to worry about landing and flaring correctly.

When I was skydiving, I had a compound tib/fib from landing incorrectly and making a bunch of stupid mistakes.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 10, 2012, 9:13 PM
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Re: [Austintxflight] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I spent 2 years as a Tunnel Instructor, and in that time and the time since I've seen or hears about injuries including broken and dislocated arms, broken legs, fractured heels, neck and spinal injuries and even a fatality.

Just because it doesn't involve a parachute doesn't mean it's "safe".

A comparison is just as silly as a comparison of skydiving dangers and riding a motorcycle.

It's different, and because of that the dangers are different. Loosing respect for that, which can begin by assuming is "safer" than a related related sport, is a prime way to ensure injury.

If you want to assume it's safer because you won't have a parachuting accident, you might consider that you would be hard pressed to slam into a wall in freefall when skydiving.


Austintxflight

Feb 11, 2012, 9:31 AM
Post #8 of 31 (6778 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, but why is it silly to do a statistical analysis to see which has higher incidence of injury, severe injury and death? Yes the injuries may be different, but without looking at numbers from tunnel injuries I can guarantee that tunnel injuries happen less often and are less severe than skydiving ones. Just like wingsuit base jumping is riskier and more dangerous than skydiving. There are absolutes.

I still stand by the fact that it is on a per usage basis infact safer than actual skydiving, true its not a harmless activity and as you pointed out from your experience injuries and deaths do still occur.


adagen

Feb 11, 2012, 6:12 PM
Post #9 of 31 (6757 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

When I started backflying it took me ages to feel comfortable but I did get there. Being able to sitfly came a lot more quickly but it took a lot of work to get confident about moving around, and I'm still working on being able to hold head down.

I know I'm always going to be learning something but that's part of the fun. I watch some brilliant flyers and get very critical of myself for what I can't do. That's when I have to step back and remind myself how much I have learned, and that the people I'm watching are top athletes, which I'm not Unsure

Re the tiredness, it's like anything else - do enough and you do get tunnel fit.


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 11, 2012, 6:28 PM
Post #10 of 31 (6753 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

I can tell you from experience that your "without looking at number" makes your entire post an exercise in assumption.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Feb 11, 2012, 7:52 PM)


Austintxflight

Feb 12, 2012, 7:33 AM
Post #11 of 31 (6719 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

ok simple numbers... skydiving deaths last year in the US 20+...

tunnel deaths in the last year less than 2.

Also you first claim that you can't do a statistical analysis, then say that without the numbers its insufficient.

Why is it hard to admit that the tunnel is safer than skydiving?




diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 12, 2012, 6:42 PM
Post #13 of 31 (6659 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Why is it so hard for you to admit you don't have the experience to know what you're talking about.


CHRCNF  (C License)

Feb 13, 2012, 10:55 AM
Post #14 of 31 (6598 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy shit, dude. They're different, but so as to accomplish the same thing. Like how Mac and PC are different, but both do essentially the same thing. Maybe somebody doesn't want to hurl their body out of an airplane but still want the free fall experience. To them, such a comparison, concluding that the tunnel is safer, is not absurd. Why ya gotta be like dat, mang?


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 13, 2012, 11:48 AM
Post #15 of 31 (6592 views)
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Re: [CHRCNF] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's different, and because of that the dangers are different. Loosing respect for that, which can begin by assuming is "safer" than a related related sport, is a prime way to ensure injury.

Wanna let us know who you are?


Austintxflight

Feb 13, 2012, 12:57 PM
Post #16 of 31 (6580 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok.

So I think this is the situation, the OP said they were sticking to the tunnel because it was safer than skydiving.

You wanted to let her know that risks are still involved, which is true. (there are no risk free activities in life). And the risks are still significant and from your experience and second hand knowledge(which then you discount others second hand knowledge) you have come to see. One can understand where you are coming from, I think we all agree it is better to prepare for the worst and have the respect to understand and mitigate the risks involved than to undersell the risk and have someone get hurt because they track into a glass wall at 100MPH.

I agree that I do not have the experience to know each specific risk, and how to mitigate them and reduce the risk for myself or others, and experience is a key factor. I also agree that your experience is superior in this respect, put each of us in the tunnel and throw potentially dangerous situations at us, and my money would be on you better able to react, recover and reduce the risk. But that was not the point of this endeavor.

But it is absolutely possible to compare different, and semi related activities to asses the risk between them. That is why motorcycle insurance on a per basis number is more expensive than car insurance, because on an aggregate level it has proven to be a riskier activity. Its why we can deem smoking long term has higher risk related to it than not smoking.

It is also why people can say that wingsuit base jumping is riskier than skydiving. Or XRW is risker than just skydiving. Or that stock A has a higher risk than Treasury bonds etc.

Also look at the money, it is easier to finance a new tunnel than a dropzone, because the banks lending the money see lower risk in losing their investment. It is also why it is cheaper for a tunnel to get insurance than a dropzone. Also the children factor, look at how many more children are in tunnels than in the sky, it would simply not be insurable if the risks were the same, or if the risks were actually the same, there should be children 5 years old skydiving.

Experience is not needed to calculate risk, if that were the case every insurance actuary would need to experience each event they are insuring. You don't have to have smoked for 20 years to know what the risk is. Experience is key in mitigating risk, and I can assure you, that your ability to mitigate risk both in the sky and in the tunnel far exceeds mine. But it is not a prerequisite for calculation. Calculating risk between different activities, or investments is what the insurance/finance business is all about.

I said I couldn't use numbers because I don't have access to information regarding non fatal tunnel injuries, and to make a quality assessment you would need other variables such as number of participants, participant minutes etc to truly get a value to determine the actual risk of the activity. But you don't have those numbers either. Also it is highly improbable that two activities would have equal risk. Even jumping at different dropzones have different risks involved, so saying they are the same would raise a red-flag there. The other variable to look at besides frequency of injury would be severity. Once again without numbers available it is difficult for anyone to make a definitive point, yet we do know there are around 20-30 deaths from skydiving each year while deaths in the tunnel occur with less frequency. Now I agree those numbers mean little without knowing the frequency of activity (far more DZ's than tunnels etc.) But you haven't don't that analysis either.

At the end of the day I stand by my claim that the tunnel is on a per incidence basis safer, and severity of injuries occur safer than actual skydiving. If you can provide statistical analysis to disprove that, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.


I do fully agree with your point, that there is risk, you can get injured and killed in the tunnel, and if you aren't aware of the risks and take care to mitigate them you can end up one of our statistics...


(This post was edited by Austintxflight on Feb 13, 2012, 1:31 PM)


MartinOlsson  (D 13229)

Feb 13, 2012, 12:58 PM
Post #17 of 31 (6579 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is it so hard for you to admit you don't have the experience to know what you're talking about.

By that logic you don't have enough experience to recommend someone to take up bowling instead of skydiving.

/Martin


guineapiggie101

Feb 13, 2012, 1:56 PM
Post #18 of 31 (6552 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

In this thread so far, I have read that tunnel IS safer than skydiving and then tunnel is NOT safer than skydiving. I'm confused, which is it?

Yeah, I can see banging into the tunnel walls can hurt someone (aka bumps and bruises), but, in a tunnel, one doesn't have to worry about someone hurtling at you at 150 mph (approx), as in like canopy collisions. Also, one doesn;t have to worry about landing patterns and not landing correctly and hurting oneself.

I started off going after my "A" license. I only decided to change course because on my 2nd solo jump, I had a compound tib/fib because I panicked and made a bunch of unwise decisions that affected my landing.

It seems to be fun to learn to fly on your back and eventually graduate to head down.

So, what IS the best way to mitigate risk in the tunnel? As of now, I won't continue tunnel training until I get my jumpsuit (which might be a few months since Liquid Sky is a bit backordered).


Austintxflight

Feb 13, 2012, 2:00 PM
Post #19 of 31 (6548 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

In terms of mitigating risk, I think diablopilot or someone else with sufficient tunnel experience and training, plus years as an instructor would be better to explain the different risks and how to mitigate them. That is an area where experience absolutely plays a factor in.

And you can get more than bumps and bruises from flying into the wall, or you could fly right out the door etc. Like diablopilot said said, there have been significant injuries. My point was agreeing that on a per basis level it is less risky.

Diablopilot even advocated at one point (different thread) that students should go through S/L or an idea mix of tandem, S/L training before moving to AFF because the combination of the AFF learning curve and the canopy learning curve can be too much for some.

By his logic, then removing the canopy portion, should therefore be safer than having both. Although still carries risk.


(This post was edited by Austintxflight on Feb 13, 2012, 2:04 PM)


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Feb 13, 2012, 2:16 PM
Post #20 of 31 (6541 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Miss GP.....When you get your suit ( or just keep using the rental suit for now ), use the tunnel with the care, go slow and steady with your training..... follow your instructor's advice.......and above all....have the fun you are seeking.....Smile


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 13, 2012, 6:47 PM
Post #21 of 31 (6513 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So, what IS the best way to mitigate risk in the tunnel?

Pay attention to your instructors when they guide you through the progression, and seek to be truly proficient at one thing before moving to something more complex. Back flying IS hard, because being upside down is confusing for most people.

Biggest hurdle is our minds. Relax and listen to what your body is telling you. Start with slow movements. The backfly is one of the most important things to become proficient with. It is the safety fallback position for all more advance flying.

Good luck.


adagen

Feb 14, 2012, 5:51 AM
Post #22 of 31 (6474 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

Some moves can throw you at the tunnel walls at a speed sufficient to break bones, so the potential for injury is more than bumps and bruises. If you work on learning those moves with a good tunnel instructor, they will know grips and other techniques to reduce the risk of you damaging yourself on the walls - or by inadvertently propelling yourself out the door.

As regards bumps and bruises, a lot of freeflyers wear elbow and kneepads under their tunnelsuits. Gloves protect your hands when you start learning head down by balancing on the net.

If you compare the tunnel to the freefall part of a jump, you're trading the risk of collision with a soft body for the risk of collision with a hard structure. Better to look at the tunnel as an activity in its own right with its own risks, and find yourself a good coach to mitigate those risks. Good luck.




Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Feb 17, 2012, 10:50 AM
Post #24 of 31 (6302 views)
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Re: [guineapiggie101] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In this thread so far, I have read that tunnel IS safer than skydiving and then tunnel is NOT safer than skydiving. I'm confused, which is it?

Yeah, I can see banging into the tunnel walls can hurt someone (aka bumps and bruises), but, in a tunnel, one doesn't have to worry about someone hurtling at you at 150 mph (approx), as in like canopy collisions. Also, one doesn;t have to worry about landing patterns and not landing correctly and hurting oneself.

I started off going after my "A" license. I only decided to change course because on my 2nd solo jump, I had a compound tib/fib because I panicked and made a bunch of unwise decisions that affected my landing.

It seems to be fun to learn to fly on your back and eventually graduate to head down.

So, what IS the best way to mitigate risk in the tunnel? As of now, I won't continue tunnel training until I get my jumpsuit (which might be a few months since Liquid Sky is a bit backordered).

Not only bumps and bruises..... as you advance you will fly at higher speeds. I am guessing that while you learned to backfly in this last session it was at lower speeds. To get to higher speeds often used in sit and head down you need to be able to recover and go to your back at those same speeds first. Once that speed picks up smaller mistakes in body position bring more risk. For instance, when you start learning transitions of back to belly and vice versa and take those to higher speeds.. bad things can happen.... or say back to sit or back to a sit position on the net... you let those hips come forward and don't hold your 90 and you will get propelled in to the wall quickly.... at higher speeds...... this can break you! Make more sense? It is true you are not dealing with canopy, canopy flight, or landing but in the sky you are not dealing with walls, an open door outside the column of air, or a floor/net. When I started working on my sit in the tunnel I had a tendency to stand up when tired and coming back down towards the net....... BAD! You almost need to imagine there is no net and keep your body position.... keep flying. Hope this helps...... I would not say either is "safer" really. It is all calculated risk.


JasonYergin  (D 33619)

Jun 17, 2012, 5:32 PM
Post #25 of 31 (5799 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] learning to freefly/backfly in tunnel [In reply to] Can't Post

I would never suggest that we shouldn't be aware and as safe as possible in the sky and in the tunnel but wow... About half of the posts in this thread are so far off topic it's not even funny. Who gives a fuck if it is, isn't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The OP only barely mentioned the tunnel being safer. Thanks to diablo for sort of getting the thread back on track and forgive my rant.

Does anybody have any knowledge they can pass on to a beginning backflyer? ...for those of us that want to read something worthwhile in our down time.


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