Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Training required to fly camera

 


rifleman  (Student)

Feb 10, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #1 of 15 (1390 views)
Shortcut
Training required to fly camera Can't Post

I am a noob and realise I know nothing about nothing.

When I was a soldier, I wanted to join the recce platoon because they had all the coolest kit (stripped down, low profile Land Rovers etc) but the OC of the company I served in had certain requirements before you could even apply to join.

You had to have at least 2 years service, be able to drive, and be qualified in at least 2 of the following:

Assault pioneer (explosives and demolition)
Radio Operator
Fire Control (Mortar and Artillery)
Forward Air Control

What I'm asking is just like my army career, what training should I be doing post A licence so that when I reach the required number of jumps, I can approach my CCI and ask for permission to jump camera, knowing that I've given myself the best chance of doing so safely and have that training documented in my log book.

Many thanks in advance for your advice.

Rick


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Feb 10, 2012, 10:05 AM
Post #2 of 15 (1382 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rifleman] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Look to the BPA and see what they say are the minimal requirements.

Plus, it is not a bad idea to amass a larger number of jumps 200+ is a good START (or BPA's rule, which ever is higher). Then seek the advice and mentorship of an experienced Camera Flyer at the DZ you will jump at the most. Then consider attending a few of the seminars that are taught by some of the best there is like Norman Kent.

Matt


JackC1

Feb 10, 2012, 10:21 AM
Post #3 of 15 (1366 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rifleman] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're jumping in the UK under BPA rules you will need a C certificate. That's will require CH1, CH2 and JM1 endorsements plus another '??1' (eg. FS1, FF1, IS1) and at least 200 jumps. Then you'll need a camera briefing and some CCI's ask for a cutaway system on the helmet you will be using.


(This post was edited by JackC1 on Feb 10, 2012, 10:24 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 10, 2012, 10:28 AM
Post #4 of 15 (1354 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rifleman] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

>what training should I be doing post A licence so that when I reach the required
>number of jumps, I can approach my CCI and ask for permission to jump camera

1) Get good at basic body flight. Tunnel time is very helpful. If not work on fallrate control and side sliding in the air with someone.

2) Choose a preferred subject for videoing. The best way to start (IMO) is to film moderately good 4-way teams, because they present a stable target and will not mind if you mess up occasionally. Avoid new 4-way teams because they're often all over the place, and avoid competitive teams because they may put too much pressure on you to "get the shot."

3) Get good at whatever you want to video. If it's 4-way teams, learn to do basic 4-way. If it's students, get your AFF (or British equivalent) rating. I know it's hard, but filming students requires both skill and ability to anticipate what students do.

4) Find a good local videographer and get his advice on equipment setup, snag prevention, aircraft safety with camera helmets, emergency procedures (think about downwind and water landings with a camera helmet for example) flight with wings etc etc.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Feb 10, 2012, 10:30 AM
Post #5 of 15 (1352 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rifleman] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Read the sticky in the Photog & Vid forum. It has a few suggestions.

VAAST has some good training videos available.

http://vasst.com/...ou-need-to-know.aspx

Your best resource would be the camera fliers at your own DZ.

Ask them the same way you put it in the OP - "What should I work on now to put myself in the best position for the future."
If you ask that way, as opposed to what usually happens (But I'm GOOD!!! Why can't I fly a camera NOW?!?!), you will probably get some good advice.


freekflyguy  (D 11658)

Feb 11, 2012, 3:31 PM
Post #6 of 15 (1175 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rifleman] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Some good advice o here Rick, which basically boils down to speak to your CCI and an experienced camera flyer at your DZ.

If only they were the same person Wink

We'll have a chat about this next time your at the DZ, but for the moment lets get you qualified first Smile


5.samadhi

Feb 12, 2012, 8:45 AM
Post #7 of 15 (1031 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
3) Get good at whatever you want to video. If it's 4-way teams, learn to do basic 4-way. If it's students, get your AFF (or British equivalent) rating. I know it's hard, but filming students requires both skill and ability to anticipate what students do.
can you explain this more? I dont quite understand maybe I'm missing something. What if you want to video tandems?? Should you get good at doing tandems?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 12, 2012, 9:02 AM
Post #8 of 15 (1024 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
3) Get good at whatever you want to video. If it's 4-way teams, learn to do basic 4-way. If it's students, get your AFF (or British equivalent) rating. I know it's hard, but filming students requires both skill and ability to anticipate what students do.
can you explain this more? I dont quite understand maybe I'm missing something. What if you want to video tandems?? Should you get good at doing tandems?

Learning to fly your body, learning to anticipate movement (happens with tandems and AFF students both), learning to fly no-contact relative work, being able to know when things are good and sense when things are about to not be so good, all takes time.
Flying fourway is a great way to learn all of the above. When it comes time to film tandems, you'll likely have most all the skills you need to fly close in to a tandem while keeping the student, TI, and yourself in a safe place.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 12, 2012, 12:05 PM
Post #9 of 15 (997 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
3) Get good at whatever you want to video. If it's 4-way teams, learn to do basic 4-way. If it's students, get your AFF (or British equivalent) rating. I know it's hard, but filming students requires both skill and ability to anticipate what students do.
can you explain this more? I dont quite understand maybe I'm missing something. What if you want to video tandems?? Should you get good at doing tandems?

When I wanted to start filming tandems, I was told to practice filming FS4 some more, until I could show 4 consequetive perfect exit-to-opening FS4 videos. Mind you, the team I was filming at the time did NOT make that very easy Crazy
I learned so much from filming FS4 for 2 seasons, that from the first tandemvideo I did, the videos were both safe and sellable.

This was in sharp contrast BTW to some of the freeflyers I have seen start doing tandemvideos Pirate Even if you have 1000 jumps and are awesome on your head, this does NOT automatically a good tandemvidiot make. For tandems, you want to be able to fly on your belly real good before coming anywhere near them. Filming FS4 teaches you that.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 12, 2012, 2:18 PM
Post #10 of 15 (964 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rifleman] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Once they have 200 jumps, I tell aspiring videographers to go out and chase their buddies doing flat formations or V-RW.
Then It tell them that the more their buddies slide around the sky - and the better they are at keeping them in frame - the higher their score.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 12, 2012, 3:41 PM
Post #11 of 15 (937 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

>What if you want to video tandems?? Should you get good at doing tandems?

Or AFF, or even SL. Some tandem manufacturers required tandem or AFF ratings for people doing video with them, because they are far more dangerous than, say, 4-way video. (Although 4-way is a great way to start.)


(This post was edited by billvon on Feb 12, 2012, 3:42 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 13, 2012, 4:54 AM
Post #12 of 15 (872 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>What if you want to video tandems?? Should you get good at doing tandems?

Or AFF, or even SL. Some tandem manufacturers required tandem or AFF ratings for people doing video with them, because they are far more dangerous than, say, 4-way video. (Although 4-way is a great way to start.)

Are you saying film AFF/SL or go to the IRC's?

I honestly think filming AFF (especially when they don't go as planned) is much harder than filming tandems.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 13, 2012, 5:39 AM
Post #13 of 15 (855 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
3) Get good at whatever you want to video. If it's 4-way teams, learn to do basic 4-way. If it's students, get your AFF (or British equivalent) rating. I know it's hard, but filming students requires both skill and ability to anticipate what students do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

can you explain this more? I dont quite understand maybe I'm missing something. What if you want to video tandems?? Should you get good at doing tandems

Really? While tandems might be the exception to the rule, you really don't understand the concept of being good at what you want to film before you try to film it?

Again, tandems aside, you realize that in order to film something you have to be able to stay with it in the air, and the best way to do that is (for the most part) to mimic what the flyers are doing. Want to film freefly? You better be good at freeflying. Want to film RW? Ditto, you need to be able to stay with the formation and maintain proximity.

Even AFF, even though getting a rating and AFF experience is a big hurdle, being an AFF I is a definite asset to anyone trying to film AFF. When the dive flow is second nature, and you can learn to 'read' the student and the situation, your chances of shooting a clean video go up considerably.


Pulse  (D 16387)

Feb 13, 2012, 6:50 AM
Post #14 of 15 (832 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rifleman] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's very simple. First, get good at skydiving. Definitely to a point where you don't have to think about things too much. As in, do you really have to concentrate to stand up your landings? Stay close and stable on the 'hill'? Are you concentrating very hard to close on a formation? If this is the case, don't put cameras on yet.

Personally, I think USPA's recommendation of 200 jumps is laughable. I'm thinking something more like 500 to 800. Tunnel time might help. But keep in mind, tunnels are NOT skydiving and shouldn't be treated as such. They can only teach a very small portion of what it takes to be a skydiver.

I am a believer in taking part in whatever disciplines you want to shoot. Though I'm not a TI or AFF, you don't need these ratings to know the dive flow and what to expect. You can learn exactly what an AFFI knows without having a rating. I've never shot at an examiner course where you couldn't sit in on the training. As for TI's, I think we all know there are plenty of TI's out there who couldn't shoot decent video. So what does that say?

Here's something else that really gets overlooked in the skydiving world....LEARN PHOTOGRAPHY! If you're not already doing so, start shooting the world around you now. If you have no interest in that, then why would you want to start flying camera?

There's a definite difference between camera-flyers, and those who jump out of planes with cameras on their heads. You can be the latter, but why would you want to? But if you're looking to just meet the minimum requirements and are only doing so because the gear is so 'convenient' nowadays. You will be setting yourself up to be just that.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 13, 2012, 9:25 AM
Post #15 of 15 (791 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Training required to fly camera [In reply to] Can't Post

>Are you saying film AFF/SL or go to the IRC's?

Go to an IRC. Even if you don't pass you'll learn a LOT about what to expect from students of all sorts.

I think a lot of people see videographers videoing tandems and think "that's a great way to get paid to skydive, and all the tandem videos I see look pretty easy to do!" But even tandem students can be unpredictable, and learning about students in general is (IMO) a very good idea before you start filming them - as is starting with easier subjects like decent 4-way teams.

>I honestly think filming AFF (especially when they don't go as planned) is much harder
>than filming tandems.

Agreed for the most part. AFF's are more unpredictable and generate spontaneous canopies more often than tandems, and you'll almost always have to move around more to keep an AFF in frame. Tandems, however, have a much wider potential fall rate range, especially if the TM has trouble getting the drogue out in time.



Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)