Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Student vs Expert CYPRES

 

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skydiverkeith

Feb 8, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Student vs Expert CYPRES Can't Post

Opinions wanted...

Is the student CYPRES a better option than the expert when flying an X2 with a Spectre loaded at 1:1? Conventional wisdom would say "no", but rationally, it just seems to make more sense. Am I wrong? and why?


(This post was edited by skydiverkeith on Feb 8, 2012, 11:26 AM)


LukeH  (D License)

Feb 8, 2012, 10:31 AM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student ve Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is the student CYPRES a better option than the expert when flying an X2 with a Spectre loaded at 1:1?
No.

Student Cypres is designed for student type mistakes and student type canopies.

What attributes of the Student model do you think would benefit someone in a large wingsuit?


skydiverkeith

Feb 8, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Re: [LukeH] Student ve Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is the student CYPRES a better option than the expert when flying an X2 with a Spectre loaded at 1:1?
No.

Student Cypres is designed for student type mistakes and student type canopies.

What attributes of the Student model do you think would benefit someone in a large wingsuit?

The ability to fire at speeds slower than 79 mph...


jakee  (C License)

Feb 8, 2012, 11:02 AM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student ve Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is the student CYPRES a better option than the expert when flying an X2 with a Spectre loaded at 1:1?

No.

In reply to:
Conventional wisdom would say "no",

Yep.

In reply to:
but rationally, it just seems to make more sense.

No.

In reply to:
Am I wrong?

Yep.


skydiverkeith

Feb 8, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #5 of 51 (2272 views)
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Re: [jakee] Student ve Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is the student CYPRES a better option than the expert when flying an X2 with a Spectre loaded at 1:1?

No.

In reply to:
Conventional wisdom would say "no",

Yep.

In reply to:
but rationally, it just seems to make more sense.

No.

In reply to:
Am I wrong?

Yep.

Care to also answer the "and why?" part? or are you just regurgitating conventional wisdom as well?


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Feb 8, 2012, 11:37 AM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got a Xbird and an Sbird, and a Storm that I load about 1:1.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

I looked up the firing specs on the Airtec website.

Quote:
[The student Cypres] will activate when the rate of descent exceeds 29mph (13m/sec). The activation altitude, however, is split. In the case of rate of descent being equal to that of freefall, the opening altitude is at approx. 750ft, as with Expert Cypres. However, should the rate of descent be lower than that of freefall but still above the limit of 29mph (e.g. with partially opened canopy), then Student Cypres activates when the altitude decreases below 1000 ft AGL.

Conversely, for the Expert Cypres:

Quote:
[It] activates when it detects a rate of descent higher than 78 mph (35 m/sec) at an altitude of approx. 750ft above ground level (AGL).

Are you saying that you think the Student Cypres might be better for wingsuiting because a wingsuiter might be flying at less than 78 mph (but more than 29 mph) at 750/1000 feet?

If so, I don't think I'd call that prudent - even my ginormous Storm can pull turns at greater than 29 mph if I fly it like a retarded monkey; I wouldn't want my AAD popping off unexpected.


skydiverkeith

Feb 8, 2012, 12:12 PM
Post #7 of 51 (2252 views)
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Re: [Skwrl] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
Are you saying that you think the Student Cypres might be better for wingsuiting because a wingsuiter might be flying at less than 78 mph (but more than 29 mph) at 750/1000 feet?

Yes, sir. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Quote:
If so, I don't think I'd call that prudent - even my ginormous Storm can pull turns at greater than 29 mph if I fly it like a retarded monkey; I wouldn't want my AAD popping off unexpected.

That wouldn't be good! It didn't occur to me that a 7 cell so lightly loaded could be flown faster than 29 mph! Are you positive about this?


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:43 PM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That wouldn't be good! It didn't occur to me that a 7 cell so lightly loaded could be flown faster than 29 mph! Are you positive about this?

Positive? No - I can't say that I've measured it. I overstated that bit - and you're right to call me on that. I believe it goes over 29mph. I know I can definitely build up speed when I toggle whip... I'd have to play with my canopy and some logging altimeters... This might be a good question for the canopy forum. It certainly feels fast, though...

The way I think about it, the situation that you're concerned about is a sort of a controlled wingsuit flight into terrain. To be going less than 79mph, I'd imagine you'd need to be at least somewhat in control of the suit. (Although I admit watching some of you twig-like guys makes me wonder whether or not that's true...)

That would require the wingsuiter to be flying the wingsuit, not unconscious, not having a medical thing going on, or otherwise not incapacitated.

For me, the risk of the "Event that Renders Skwrl Incapable of Pitching" is the main reasons I jump with an AAD. If I can't pitch, I'm probably going faster than 78 mph...

I acknowledge that there's always the "I forgot to pull" risk (I'm thinking about the four way that went in on the South Pole), but I deal with that risk in other ways - I have four altimeters on me, two of which make lots of noise... Personally, I don't think controlled flight into the ground is going to be what does me in. [I am now knocking on wood so that none of you clowns gets to post a Nelson Muntz style "HA-Haw" jpeg on my memorial site if I go in that way.] Your results may vary, of course...

In any event, before using a student Cypres, I'd want to be 110% sure I can't accidentally get over 29mph under canopy...


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Feb 8, 2012, 12:45 PM)


BMichaeli  (C License)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:46 PM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That wouldn't be good! It didn't occur to me that a 7 cell so lightly loaded could be flown faster than 29 mph! Are you positive about this?

That is very possible. Just bury a toggle and see for your self. you will spin much faster then 29mph. The difference is that students (nor anyone for that matter) should not be burying a toggle at that low altitude. that statement excludes swooping.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 8, 2012, 2:38 PM
Post #10 of 51 (2193 views)
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It didn't occur to me that a 7 cell so lightly loaded could be flown faster than 29 mph! Are you positive about this?


EASILY.


The111  (D 29246)

Feb 8, 2012, 3:47 PM
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Re: [DSE] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It didn't occur to me that a 7 cell so lightly loaded could be flown faster than 29 mph! Are you positive about this?


EASILY.

Yeah, I'd think it easy too. I'd bet you could practically reach that speed on just double fronts. I could be way off, but I'll bet steady state descent is close to 15mph, at least.


shveddy  (D 30995)

Feb 8, 2012, 4:12 PM
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Re: [The111] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

I was right above someone who was loaded at about 1.3, not flying like a retarded monkey and I saw his student Cypres fire.

He thought that he could get away with a student Cypres at 1.1:1 or so, gained some winter weight and that caused it to fire. So the lesson is to not play with those sorts of margins.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 8, 2012, 4:17 PM
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Re: [The111] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a turn.
Storm 150, 1:1.3

If you're still able to fly an X2 at the back half of a flight so efficiently that you're below student speeds/altitudes, that's incredibly impressive.


(This post was edited by DSE on Feb 8, 2012, 4:20 PM)
Attachments: CanopySpeed.gif (21.6 KB)


Electronaut  (C 38872)

Feb 8, 2012, 5:50 PM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Students have managed to have student models fire even under big dopey lightly loaded student canopies.

Moving on...

I wasn't there and, hell, it happened before I started skydiving. But look up Steve Harrington's death. His AAD still managed to fire, a Cypres. The incident is in an issue of Parachutist around March or April 2010. As to his build and the suit he flew, I have no idea, others in this thread may know.

And on the opposite side of the coin, look up Adrian Nicholas and his death due to a Cypres firing low.


skydiverkeith

Feb 8, 2012, 7:18 PM
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Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, and I was expecting a lot of smart ass bs! Thanks for the info guys!


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Feb 9, 2012, 6:29 AM
Post #16 of 51 (2031 views)
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

You are not the first one to think this, there was an actual case of "failure to listen to the advise he was given" several years back that I witnessed first hand. The simple answer is no, do not use student mode. I watched an individual use student mode after the mfgr and I both explained to him that it was not a good idea. The next jump he had a 2 out, one in front of another that he decided he would land. Luckily he was able to land uninjured except for some grass stains on his suit. He was jumping a 7 cell base canopy as a main and was still able to cause his AAD to fire when he turned his canopy. I was about a 1000 ft above him at the time and happened to look down and watch the whole thing happen.


skydiverkeith

Feb 9, 2012, 6:51 AM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You are not the first one to think this, there was an actual case of "failure to listen to the advise he was given" several years back that I witnessed first hand. The simple answer is no, do not use student mode. I watched an individual use student mode after the mfgr and I both explained to him that it was not a good idea. The next jump he had a 2 out, one in front of another that he decided he would land. Luckily he was able to land uninjured except for some grass stains on his suit. He was jumping a 7 cell base canopy as a main and was still able to cause his AAD to fire when he turned his canopy. I was about a 1000 ft above him at the time and happened to look down and watch the whole thing happen.

Lol, $1400 is a lot to spend on something you've already researched and and have an idea you shouldn't be using anyway!


piisfish

Feb 9, 2012, 7:14 AM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lol, $1400 is a lot to spend on something you've already researched and and have an idea you shouldn't be using anyway!
for some AAD's , the mode change is just a couple of clicks away. and some "room temperature IQ users" give AAD manufacturers a bad reputation.


Electronaut  (C 38872)

Feb 9, 2012, 8:25 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

Unless something's changed, you can send your AAD to SSK (in the states or Airtec in EU) and they'll change the mode for free plus shipping or a nominal charge.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 9, 2012, 9:09 AM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Wow, and I was expecting a lot of smart ass bs! Thanks for the info guys!

Ahh.....if you're expecting...Wink

What the fuck is a guy with your low experience, non-currency, and lack of understanding of skydiving gear doing in a high-performance wingsuit under a low-performance canopy?

That enough smart-ass for you?LaughTongue


ShotterMG  (Student)

Feb 9, 2012, 10:27 AM
Post #21 of 51 (1956 views)
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Re: [DSE] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

What the fuck is a guy with your low experience, non-currency, and lack of understanding of skydiving gear doing in a high-performance wingsuit under a low-performance canopy?

This coming from a guy who's recent posts show he doesn't know how a deployment system works, ( hint, it works the same from the left side or the right side) who severely busted himself up under a perfectly good canopy, and who with 5 years in the sport is now one of the leading online authorities on every possible topic related to skydiving! Give me a break. Unsure


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 9, 2012, 11:03 AM
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Re: [ShotterMG] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What the fuck is a guy with your low experience, non-currency, and lack of understanding of skydiving gear doing in a high-performance wingsuit under a low-performance canopy?

This coming from a guy who's recent posts show he doesn't know how a deployment system works, ( hint, it works the same from the left side or the right side) who severely busted himself up under a perfectly good canopy, and who with 5 years in the sport is now one of the leading online authorities on every possible topic related to skydiving! Give me a break. Unsure

Help me out...where did I demonstrate I don't know how a deployment system works?

Yep, I busted myself up, and genuinely appreciate you constantly pointing it out whenever you get the chance. Sometimes the metal in my ass and spine lets me forget.Wink
Most guys would have been smart enough to quit.


piisfish

Feb 9, 2012, 11:06 AM
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Re: [Electronaut] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unless something's changed, you can send your AAD to SSK (in the states or Airtec in EU) and they'll change the mode for free plus shipping or a nominal charge.
Which eliminates the "oh today I am going to jump in this or that mode" malfunction. There have been several incidents/unwanted fires due to bad mode selection. And this is purely operator error.


Electronaut  (C 38872)

Feb 9, 2012, 11:24 AM
Post #24 of 51 (1920 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Unless something's changed, you can send your AAD to SSK (in the states or Airtec in EU) and they'll change the mode for free plus shipping or a nominal charge.
Which eliminates the "oh today I am going to jump in this or that mode" malfunction. There have been several incidents/unwanted fires due to bad mode selection. And this is purely operator error.

Similar vein, you can't fix stupid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=detSZl23Blw


skydiverkeith

Feb 9, 2012, 11:32 AM
Post #25 of 51 (1918 views)
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Re: [DSE] Student vs Expert CYPRES [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Wow, and I was expecting a lot of smart ass bs! Thanks for the info guys!

Ahh.....if you're expecting...Wink

What the fuck is a guy with your low experience, non-currency, and lack of understanding of skydiving gear doing in a high-performance wingsuit under a low-performance canopy?

That enough smart-ass for you?LaughTongue

Where did you get this information? I have experience. I'm been extremely current at any given date for the last five years, I'm flying high performance wingsuits because its fun. I'm flying a low performance canopy because when I pitch while still in a carving turn on my wingsuit, it doesn't matter. Thanks for filling the quota of smart ass answers from ignorant assholes with no useful information...Tongue


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