Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed?

 


Tsynique  (B 2202)

Feb 7, 2012, 3:05 PM
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Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? Can't Post

Hello,

I am doing a little research and have a question stuck at the back of my head for a while now. I tried googling, reading the forums but nothing came up. I guess such a case is too infrequent (or maybe never even happened, unless maybe to some Lutz).

So, my question is about hand deployed pilot chutes. What can possibly happen (good and/or bad) if one would extract the pilot chute, stretch their arm forward as per normal deployment but wouldn't let the PC go for, say, 10 seconds? Since, this is a theoretical research I would even appreciate ideas that have a one in a trillion possibility.

Also, I think I know a thing or two about cases when the PC is barely thrown out, just extracted and let go but if someone could elaborate on this as well, it would be nice.

Thanks!

P.S. No, I haven't tried or plan on trying either of the cases.


yoink

Feb 7, 2012, 3:16 PM
Post #2 of 24 (1658 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Work through it in your head. You've got 44 jumps, so you understand the components of a parachute system and basically how they work.... What do you think would happen?




You pull out your PC to full arm stretch and hold onto it. What do you think is happening to the bridle that is connecting the PC to the pin?

It's not sitting quietly in on your back, nor is it streaming cleanly above you - it's rattling around in your burble providing a massive snag hazard! While it's doing that a loop wraps around your foot....

Now what? How would you deal with this situation? Remember, you're at deployment altitude and still in full freefall with a PC in your right hand...



Even worse a loop wraps around your foot, you don't notice and you release the PC.

Now what? How do you deal with THIS?


Even WORSE, you do all of the above, kick your leg to try and disentangle yourself, dislodge the pin holding your container closed but still have the wrap on your leg... You've now got a SERIOUS problem. Unsure



Think and try to visualise exactly how you would deal with each of these scenarios - it's great practice! Then work like hell to make sure you're never in that situation in the first place. Seriously - this is one of the worst malfunctions I can imagine.


If you pull out the PC, throw it authoratively. Do NOT hold onto it.


(This post was edited by yoink on Feb 7, 2012, 3:44 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 7, 2012, 3:40 PM
Post #3 of 24 (1625 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

You said, "extract the pilot chute, stretch their arm forward as per normal deployment..."

That is not 'normal deployment' and I'm sure you really didn't mean, "stretch their arm forward. I'm sure you really meant, "stretch their arm straight out to the side.

To answer your question directly:
Doing that exposes you to a risk of a 'horseshoe' malfunction.

As Yoink mentioned...bridle wrapped around a part of your body or around your rig. Or, the PC coming out in front of your arm and pulling the lines and bag out over (in front of) your arm instead of behind it. Not good.


For the weak throw ("cases when the PC is barely thrown out, just extracted and let go) you are exposing yourself to both 'pilot chute hesitation' AND 'horseshow' malfunctions. If you are lucky only the PC hesitation occurs and that easy to handle. The PC getting hooked on something on your rig behind you, a horseshoe, is bad.

You really should already know these things.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 7, 2012, 3:43 PM)


ghost47  (A License)

Feb 7, 2012, 3:46 PM
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, my question is about hand deployed pilot chutes. What can possibly happen (good and/or bad) if one would extract the pilot chute, stretch their arm forward as per normal deployment but wouldn't let the PC go for, say, 10 seconds?
In far fewer than 10 seconds, this could happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn1OI25bH4


mobbik

Feb 7, 2012, 4:15 PM
Post #5 of 24 (1593 views)
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Re: [ghost47] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

that looked fu#%$ scary ....

In reply to:
In far fewer than 10 seconds, this could happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn1OI25bH4


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Feb 7, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #6 of 24 (1574 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hello,
So, my question is about hand deployed pilot chutes. What can possibly happen (good and/or bad) if one would extract the pilot chute, stretch their arm forward as per normal deployment but wouldn't let the PC go for, say, 10 seconds? Since, this is a theoretical research I would even appreciate ideas that have a one in a trillion possibility.

The bridle will come out, catch air at a nominal 120 MPH, and vibrate.

Since today's skydivers are such wimps the closing loop may be loose enough for the bridle to pull the pin out giving you an open container for 10 seconds.

Maybe a toggle starts to catch air and come loose or something else and the flapping parts get caught on your Go Pro as you open. Or maybe the bag is a loose fit in your container since you've down-sized a bunch and it starts to come out.

Maybe you can cut-away the malfunction and break your neck due to the go-pro hangup. Maybe you fire your reserve into the trailing mess and die.

Oops.

Pulling the pilot chute out is like pulling the pin on a grenade without having a firm grip on the handle. Something is likely to explode with bad results for the operator if he hangs on to it.

Or maybe nothing happens.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Feb 7, 2012, 4:35 PM)


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Feb 7, 2012, 4:33 PM
Post #7 of 24 (1572 views)
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Re: [ghost47] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So, my question is about hand deployed pilot chutes. What can possibly happen (good and/or bad) if one would extract the pilot chute, stretch their arm forward as per normal deployment but wouldn't let the PC go for, say, 10 seconds?
In far fewer than 10 seconds, this could happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn1OI25bH4

Holy.fucking.shit Shocked


Squeak  (E 1313)

Feb 7, 2012, 5:10 PM
Post #8 of 24 (1544 views)
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Re: [ghost47] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So, my question is about hand deployed pilot chutes. What can possibly happen (good and/or bad) if one would extract the pilot chute, stretch their arm forward as per normal deployment but wouldn't let the PC go for, say, 10 seconds?
In far fewer than 10 seconds, this could happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn1OI25bH4
Any one know if this girl is still jumping?


Gene03

Feb 7, 2012, 5:28 PM
Post #9 of 24 (1528 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Throw that fucker out like it's on fire and radioactive.

Get the picture?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Feb 7, 2012, 6:31 PM
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

You were apparently never taught about this during your student progression, which is very disappointing.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 7, 2012, 7:12 PM
Post #11 of 24 (1456 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

>You were apparently never taught about this during your student progression, which is
>very disappointing.

He may have been taught "it is critical to throw the PC away as quickly as possible" but not been told what can happen if he does not.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Feb 7, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #12 of 24 (1437 views)
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Re: [billvon] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>You were apparently never taught about this during your student progression, which is
>very disappointing.

He may have been taught "it is critical to throw the PC away as quickly as possible" but not been told what can happen if he does not.

Of course. Which would mean he wasn't taught about the consequences of improper technique, which would be very disappointing.

It's not enough to know what to do. We also need to know why.

Of course he could have just asked an instructor at his home DZ. Sure worked when I was a noob.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Feb 7, 2012, 7:30 PM
Post #13 of 24 (1433 views)
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Re: [billvon] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can think of one jump where hesitating to throw my PC possibly prevented a freefall or canopy collision.

Quincy, Illinois, Free Fall Convention 1997. I was on a raft dive as a free floater, not holding the rope on exit. I was supposed to fly in and dock. Well the raft floated like a bitch and I couldn't keep up with it and sank out. Somebody else did, and I didn't even notice. He sank a lot faster than I did. I did debate whether to track away or stay in place and pull a bit lower than the others as we all shared our general pull altitudes prior to the jump. I chose the latter. Well, at pull time I grabbed my hacky handle and pulled, and right at the exact same time or a split second later I spied an open canopy directly below and growing larger fast. He shot up no more than 15 feet away and I was still holding my PC handle. I let go as soon as I was clear, and had an uneventful deployment. I kept the handle straight out to the side with my hand pointed up so it was slightly higher than my body.

He and I both fucked up though he took no share of the blame when we met afterwards. Unimpressed


(This post was edited by BillyVance on Feb 7, 2012, 7:33 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 7, 2012, 7:32 PM
Post #14 of 24 (1435 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Of course he could have just asked an instructor at his home DZ.

Or he could ask someone on DZ.com!

>Sure worked when I was a noob.

It usually does work, but may not work as well in some places. I realized that a lot of what I learned at my first DZ was wrong when I started to go to other DZ's.


johnmatrix  (D 9999)

Feb 7, 2012, 7:35 PM
Post #15 of 24 (1429 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know a guy who had the bridle tie a knot in itself around the PC on extraction, got a PC-in-tow.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 7, 2012, 7:47 PM
Post #16 of 24 (1423 views)
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Re: [johnmatrix] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I know a guy who had the bridle tie a knot in itself around the PC on extraction, got a PC-in-tow.

A friend of mine had that happen to him twice. He swears he wasn't holding onto the PC.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 7, 2012, 8:17 PM
Post #17 of 24 (1404 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Circa circa 1980, it was fashionable to wave-off with your pilot-chute in your hand. That fashion lasted one week. ... but too many people suffered horseshoe type malfunctions.

If you do that with a tandem drogue, you will force your rigger to sew multiple patches on the drogue and it will wear out prematurely. Since the rigger gets paid by the hour, he will be happy, but the DZO will be furious.
Secondly, hanging onto the drogue for too long also gives your student more opportunity to flip you inverted .. vastly increasing the risk of drogue entanglement.


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Feb 7, 2012, 8:21 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Feb 8, 2012, 12:30 AM
Post #18 of 24 (1336 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

  
When hand deploy pilot chutes first came out, they were called "throwaways". There was a reason for that.

I think you've been told on this thread.....


Decodiver  (D License)

Feb 8, 2012, 2:51 AM
Post #19 of 24 (1298 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two bits of advice which will serve you well in skydiving.

Throw you're PC like your life depends upon it

Why?

Because your life depends upon it

&

Track on break-off like your life depends upon it

Why?

Because your life depends upon it

Get the idea?

Coops.


EOCS  (C License)

Feb 8, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #20 of 24 (1258 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
So, my question is about hand deployed pilot chutes. What can possibly happen (good and/or bad) if one would extract the pilot chute, stretch their arm forward as per normal deployment but wouldn't let the PC go for, say, 10 seconds?
In far fewer than 10 seconds, this could happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn1OI25bH4

Holy.fucking.shit Shocked

+1


DaVinciflies

Feb 8, 2012, 6:34 AM
Post #21 of 24 (1230 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Try holding on to it with a pull-out. You'll have a fight on your hands!!


fcajump  (D 15598)

Feb 8, 2012, 7:37 AM
Post #22 of 24 (1187 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

First - GLAD you asked!! Keep asking.

Second - as you see from the replies the 99.44% pure answer is "don't do that... it can be very bad"

There are very rare times when it might be necessary to delay, but that means that there have already been mistakes made and you are willing to take the risk to avoid a bigger problem (like an open canopy just off to the side and below you). This is a high-experience option, not to be taken lightly.

Take that video seriously.

KEEP ASKING. That is the GREAT thing about this site (and instructors).

Blue Skies,
JW
Smile


Tsynique  (B 2202)

Feb 8, 2012, 9:01 AM
Post #23 of 24 (1136 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all of your answers - those related to my question and others too. Now I know how to continue my research since this is out of the way.

As far as my personal experience and training goes, despite learning some more later, during AFF1 training I was told that I would get a horseshoe if I hold the PC too long and I was told how and why to deal with a horseshoe and of course, emphasised that it's bad - really bad. However, I wasn't told exactly why would I get a horseshoe, I wasn't explained the exact mechanics that would cause it (in similar way popsjumper, yoink or others explained here). Those exact details put in the right place and order was what I needed for my research, so thanks again guys.

I would have asked someone at my DZ like I always do but it's winter in my hometown, so DZs don't work.


piisfish

Feb 9, 2012, 12:40 AM
Post #24 of 24 (1009 views)
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Re: [Tsynique] Holding the PC after extraction longer than needed? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was told that I would get a horseshoe if I hold the PC too long ... However, I wasn't told exactly why would I get a horseshoe, I wasn't explained the exact mechanics that would cause it ...
your bridle can/will whip around and might grab just anything. Anything like a video helmet... It is a bad idea to hold your PC, sometimes you take the decision that it still is what you have to do, but you need to know it can bring you bigger problems.

If you haven't seen my video, you can check in the incidents forum for a thread called "Last Night a Cypres saved my life", and the link to the video is at the end of the thread. Read through the pages, there are lots of good material to read.



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