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Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited.

 

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BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 5, 2012, 8:17 AM
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Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. Can't Post

In Reference to the Emerald Coast Incident Thread.

OK. So raise your hand if you think the minimum for a Coach Course to work with students should be 100 jumps, BUT the minimum requirement for jumping a camera should be 200.... CrazyCrazy


Southern_Man  (C License)

Feb 5, 2012, 8:24 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no idea what you are asking because it does not appear that jumper was wearing a camera or was in any way aiming towards a coach course.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 5, 2012, 8:32 AM
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Re: [Southern_Man] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have no idea what you are asking because it does not appear that jumper was wearing a camera or was in any way aiming towards a coach course.

Long-standing issue.
He was one jump from being eligible for the Coach Course and working with students, but 101 jumps away from being able to jump a camera.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Feb 5, 2012, 8:50 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have no idea what you are asking because it does not appear that jumper was wearing a camera or was in any way aiming towards a coach course.

Long-standing issue.
He was one jump from being eligible for the Coach Course and working with students, but 101 jumps away from being able to jump a camera.

Big difference between being eligible to take the course (by having 100 jumps) and being able to pass the course and get the rating.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 5, 2012, 9:10 AM
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Big difference between being eligible to take the course (by having 100 jumps) and being able to pass the course and get the rating.

Well, maybe not so big as you might think.
Ground school...not so hard to do.
Air skills...only minimum skills needed.

Ground school:
-Know what you are teaching
-Present it clearly and logically
-Check student learning

Not so tough to do.

Air skills:
-Stay somewhat close
-Be able to flash signals
-Be altitude aware.

Not so tough to do.


I would not be opposed to increasing the jump number requirements for Coach and AFFI ratings.


sacex250

Feb 5, 2012, 9:11 AM
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I have no idea what you are asking because it does not appear that jumper was wearing a camera or was in any way aiming towards a coach course.

Long-standing issue.
He was one jump from being eligible for the Coach Course and working with students, but 101 jumps away from being able to jump a camera.

Big difference between being eligible to take the course (by having 100 jumps) and being able to pass the course and get the rating.

Not really!


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 5, 2012, 2:15 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Have I long thought the requirement to be a coach should be higher? Yes.

Have I thought Coach Course Directors on the whole are too lax? Yes.

While I think the requirements should be higher, the check here is the fact they have to operate under the supervision of an instructor, and DZ's that care about the quality of student they produce into skydivers won't allow knucklehead coaches.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Feb 5, 2012, 5:48 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have no idea what you are asking because it does not appear that jumper was wearing a camera or was in any way aiming towards a coach course.

Long-standing issue.
He was one jump from being eligible for the Coach Course and working with students, but 101 jumps away from being able to jump a camera.

Right, well, again from what we know about this incident it appears this guy was not prepared for either one.


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Feb 5, 2012, 6:07 PM
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Re: [Southern_Man] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

yea but we would have had great video Frown


Squeak  (E 1313)

Feb 5, 2012, 6:44 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

These are the minimum requirements for jumping camera in OZ (C License is 100 jumps)


Quote:
DIVISION 5 CAMERA DESCENTS

11.5.1 Approval by DZSO All Camera Descents must be made only with the approval of a DZSO.

11.5.2 Minimum Experience A Parachutist must not carry a camera during a descent unless:

a) The Parachutist holds at least a Certificate C; and

b) The DZSO has given approval for the Parachutist to carry the camera concerned.

11.5.3 AFF Camera

A Parachutist must not carry a camera on an AFF descent unless the Parachutist holds at least a Certificate D.

11.5.4 Audible Altimeter

a) A Parachutist on any type of Freefly descent must wear a functioning audible altimeter. b) The altimeter must be:

(i) Approved by the ASO or Chief Instructor,
(ii) Mounted so that it is clearly audible throughout the descent; and
(iii) Set to indicate the height above the DZ.


Ron

Feb 6, 2012, 2:06 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK. So raise your hand if you think the minimum for a Coach Course to work with students should be 100 jumps, BUT the minimum requirement for jumping a camera should be 200....

I see no issue with 100 jumps to be a coach or requiring 200 to jump a camera.

This accident had nothing to do with either.

A coach will (should) be working under an instructor. You can't say the same for some guy that buys a gopro.

A coach will be working inside a structured program... You can't say the same for the guy with a gopro.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 6, 2012, 2:19 PM
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Re: [Ron] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
OK. So raise your hand if you think the minimum for a Coach Course to work with students should be 100 jumps, BUT the minimum requirement for jumping a camera should be 200....

I see no issue with 100 jumps to be a coach or requiring 200 to jump a camera.

This accident had nothing to do with either.

A coach will (should) be working under an instructor. You can't say the same for some guy that buys a gopro.

A coach will be working inside a structured program... You can't say the same for the guy with a gopro.

Never said the accident had anything to do with the other. The point is... 100 more jumps experience is required to jump with a GoPro; than the 100 jumps required to entrust the safety of another human on student status... So, if we look at the incident report... this person, on this jump, with a hook turn on a 1:1 canopy spits a 180 at 150', and gets all busted up AND was one jump shy of being able to attend the Coach Course, but 101 jumps from being allowed to jump a camera.

The requirements are just plain fucking silly. UnimpressedCrazy


Ron

Feb 6, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

You just ignored 90% of my post


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 6, 2012, 4:01 PM
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Re: [Ron] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You just ignored 90% of my post

I can assure you that is not the case.
Anything over 50% warrants no response.
I "disagreed" with 90% of your post.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Feb 6, 2012, 5:55 PM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reality a Coach as the program is set today is not entrusted with any aspect of safety except not colliding with the student. A Coach is not to pull for a student and is only to stick with a student until the break off hard deck and not anything more. The coach only has limited hand signals and is not to take harness grips or attempt any recovery activities. The coach is not much more than a reference point in the air for the student to fly around. All the coaches work comes in the prep for the jump and in the debriefing.


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Feb 6, 2012, 10:42 PM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 6, 2012, 7:21 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just find that everything you say is so sad, Brother.
Such a wonderful opportunity for so much more.


Ron

Feb 7, 2012, 5:42 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Uh, you ignored how a coach is under supervision of an Instructor, how he is in a structured training program and how he has limits on what he can and cannot do. The same cannot be said of a guy with a gopro

It is OK that you disagree, but you could at least discuss the topic YOU started or have the decency to not reply if you are going to ignore the majority of the response given.


(This post was edited by Ron on Feb 7, 2012, 5:57 AM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Feb 7, 2012, 5:56 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I just find that everything you say is so sad, Brother.
Such a wonderful opportunity for so much more.

I'm not sure what you find "sad" about it.

A coach is a "junior instructor." With the emphasis on junior. They aren't responsible for the safety of the student. The student is already cleared for self-supervision and is resposnsible for their own safety. Coaches aren't allowed to do spin-stops, roll-overs or to pull for the student as a AFFI is. There's been some debate as to what an AFFI acting as a coach should do on a jump that goes bad (as in should an AFFI acting as a coach pull for the student if necessary).

A coach's main job is to provide a stable reference for the student and to provide solid feed back on the performance during the debrief.
Beginning freefliers are often told not to do solo jumps because they can't tell if they are sliding all over the place without a reference point.

And solo jumpers, especially students, are unable to make much accurate judgement about important things like leg position, amount of arch and other things that only an outside observer (coach) can see.

Coaches are fairly limited in what they can do, specifically because they don't have the instructor skills to do more. The coach rating is supposed to be a license to learn how to be an instructor.
Which involves a lot, lot more than flying skills.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 7, 2012, 6:46 AM
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Re: [Ron] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Uh, you ignored how a coach is under supervision of an Instructor, how he is in a structured training program and how he has limits on what he can and cannot do. The same cannot be said of a guy with a gopro

It is OK that you disagree, but you could at least discuss the topic YOU started or have the decency to not reply if you are going to ignore the majority of the response given.


OK. Point taken. mea culpa... apologies extended. This has been a sticking point for me for a long time. The issue at Emerald City only brings to light the need for an either equal to or greater than requirement to become a "Coach." At issue is that jumper had one jump shy of being able to enroll in the Coach Course, whereas, the USPA recommends that one have 200 jumps to even exit the A/C with a GoPro on your head.

So, what we have is a somebody can have the skills and proficiency to work with real live human beings at 100 jumps, but can't strap on an inanimate object until 200. Let me postulate the following issues:

1. Does this make any sense?

2. I very much understand the Coach Course and responsibilities having done several myself and the tenets being met are the minimum requirements for entry and not the maximum requirements for entry. We've all seen it. I've had Coach students who couldn't even properly cock their own P/C; but passed on all the core competencies for the course.

3. How many of us have seen the number of DZs that utilize the Coach rating as a revenue generation tool, rather than an educational tool for the student. I think wolfriverjoe's comment of, "The coach rating is supposed to be a license to learn how to be an instructor" sums it up. Even at those DZ's that don't use it as a revenue device for themselves, then it's still a financial device for a Coach to learn how to become an Instructor. Personally, I think the Coach course should be done away with and one should become an Instructor - Period. IMO - there should be a week long Instructor Training Course for AFF/I, one for TI (unless the AFF/I is held) and one for S/L and IAD. A true Instructor's Training Course - not an evaluation course. And, before we go down that road... most of use hit at LEAST one boogie per annum. If you truly want to become an Instructor, then our sport demands the best Instructor Training Course that one can get - so skip a boogie and become an Instructor.

4. If the goal is to stay at the minimums, then let's ask ourselves this... wouldn't it be much better and if we truly want Coach Designation to be one of a "path to AFF/I," then shouldn't we expect the requirements to be at least half that of an AFF/I. Let's consider flipping the requirements for camera and Coach. Make the Camera requirement 100 jumps and the Coach Course at least 200 or 250 jumps and/or 3 hours of freefall time. After all, if one of the three primary responsibilities of the Coach is to debrief and they are just a "reference point in the sky..." Then, how about that "Coach" be able to show the student some video during the debrief?

Just one man's opinion for a higher standard for the Coach rating (with the example of Emerald City) or the implementation of an Instructor's Training Course.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Feb 7, 2012, 6:48 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Feb 7, 2012, 7:06 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
han the 100 jumps required to entrust the safety of another human on student status...

I believe you fail to understand the roles and responsibilities of a coach. They have no responsibility towards the safety of the student other than to keep from colliding with them, as the student has been cleared to "self supervise" before being allowed to jump with anyone other than an "I".

We might have made a mistake adding a freefall portion to the BIC. It was done to generate interest in the PATH to becoming an instructor, but now it seems to have created an idea that being a coach is what you do in freefall.

Being a coach is about what is done on the ground. The only reason for the freefall portion is to observe and evaluate on what was done on the ground, bot for the benefit of the student, and the coach (read:prospective instructor).

A Coach should be spending their time as a coach developing their abilities to teach, to observe, and to learn. Any monkey can figure out the flying part. A couple years back 200+ instructors were behind the idea that a coach needed time to marinate, to become more talented in teaching and observational skills before being able to qualify for that instructor title. The USPA shanked it and gave us a half measure, but the point is being a coach is a guided growing process.

Camera flying is not.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 7, 2012, 7:36 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It was done to generate interest in the PATH to becoming an instructor, but now it seems to have created an idea that being a coach is what you do in freefall.

Being a coach is about what is done on the ground

Here's a fun thought, what if you chaged the structure of the program, so at 100 jumps you could take only the ground school portion of the coach course, and in turn, only exercise the ground-based privledges of a coach? Then, once you had 200 jumps, you could add-on the air skills portion, and begin to jump with students. Jumper content to wait until 200 jumps could simply take the complete course all at once.

How many 100 jump candidates do you think you'll lose? Whatever the number is, those are the ones who don't give two shits about coaching, and are 100% interested in getting paid to jump, or jumping for free, or having the 'prestige' of walking the plane as an 'instructor' with their very own 'student'.

As much talk as there is about what the program is supposed to be, we all know what it's turned into. It's simply become the entry-way to working in the air. It's the first paid in-air job you can get at the DZ, and between the money, the free jumps, and the status of being an in-air staff member, the 'ideals' of the program get lost. That's why you'll see a sharp decline in sub 200 jump candidates if the progarm were changed in the way I outlined above. If you made it just 'teaching', you see that most jumpers don't give a crap about teaching.

Case in point - who teaches the FJC on a busy weekend day at your DZ? A mutli rated instructor? A dedicated, hard core jumper? They want to spend 6 or 8 hours in the classroom listening the plane take off and land all day? Not hardly. All things being equal, jumpers want to jump, and that's what they would choose to do with their day if given the choice.

To add to that, all the talk about 'supervision' is also mostly non-sense. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of coaches are unsupervised, and are simply handed a student and told them which level they are on. Think about it, if an I was available, the I would be doing the work, not a coach. So when the I's are all busy with AFFs or tandems, the coaches pcik up all the coach jumps, and they're unsupervised because the I's are all busy.

Nothing about the program makes sense the way it's structured. There's every opportunity for the coaches to make some easy money with only 100 jumps, for the DZOs to increase the cost of the A license program, and for the students to suffer based on hgiher costs and potentially waiting for coaches to jump with, and all for what? So someone can watch them demonstrate useless freefall skills? Level control and center point turns? Who the fuck needs that? How about cut those two jumps out of the program, and take the $150 the student saves and put them through a canopy ocontrol course. $150 could get them 6 hop n pops and have $30+ to pay the guy giving the course.

Like I said, if they really wanted the coach program to 'honor' the stated purposes, they could have structured it differently and included some 'checks and balances' to keep it honest. They didn't.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Feb 7, 2012, 7:36 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Feb 7, 2012, 8:06 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a nice post, Dave.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 7, 2012, 8:17 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That's a nice post, Dave

Thanks. However I do want to make a clarification.

I'm not suggesting that nobody like to teach. Working a student through a problem, and seeing the results in freefall can be very rewarding. Educating an eager and dedicated student isn't the worst thing out there, but again, the payoff is seeing the results of your efforts in freefall.

In terms of the coach program, and coach level jumps, it's not the same. By the time a student is to that level, they should have most of their 'problems' worked out. They are, after all, cleared to self-supervise, and should be all set to jump on their own with no problem. What the coach does is less 'teach' and more 'observe'.

Coaches 'train' students for the jump they are about to do, and then obsereve. Beyond the debrief, that's generally the end of the process. It's rare to 'fail' a coach jump, and if that dioes occur, it's also rare that the same coach hwo was on that jump will be adminstering the corrective training and doing the rejump. If a coach level student fails a jump, often times an I will be brought in to handle the scenario.

The point is that the teaching involved at the instructor level, and the teaching involved at the coach level are two different things. Even then, there are a ton of I's out there who don't give two shits about teaching, and just want to make the jumps and earn the cash. There's no way to eliminate that, it's human nature, but at least with an I there are some realistic prerequisites to becoming an I. You might be shallow and a dick, but at least you're qualifed to make the jumps.

When the coach program relies on the good naute of people, and them wanting to learn to teach, and be part of the program for a 'higher purpose' as a replacement for experience and qualifications, you open yourself up to trouble.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Feb 7, 2012, 9:03 AM
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Re: [diablopilot] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

JP,

I understand the roles and responsibilities of a Coach so well that this is why I am so adamant and passionate and loud about the subject.

The camera requirement comment was a a device to set one requirement side by side with another and an attempt to show the silliness of being RESPONSIBLE for your own life and an inanimate object trumps being responsible for a student, a human life. That strapping on a camera for the FIRST time has a stricter requirement of 100 more jumps than that of being a Coach.

I understand the roles and responsibilities of a Coach as well as you do and would point you back to your post #7.
We're saying the same thing.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Feb 7, 2012, 9:09 AM)


Ron

Feb 7, 2012, 9:46 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] Coach Course/Camera Requirements Re-visited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK. Point taken. mea culpa... apologies extended

No issue, I'd love to actually have this discussion.

Quote:
The issue at Emerald City only brings to light the need for an either equal to or greater than requirement to become a "Coach."

OK, then maybe we should leave the camera issue as a separate topic?

Quote:
So, what we have is a somebody can have the skills and proficiency to work with real live human beings at 100 jumps, but can't strap on an inanimate object until 200. Let me postulate the following issues:

1. Does this make any sense?

IMO, sort of..... Let me explain. I used to think that the idea of a person with 100 jumps having a coach rating was silly. Of course, I got my SL JM rating at 100 jumps and thought that was fine and I'd bet that someone else thought it was silly.

What changed was that I had a very experienced Instructor that I still use as a sounding board explain to me that the coach rating is a START, not an end. And that these new coaches are supposed to be supervised and given only students the supervising instructor thinks they can handle.

You don't have your ratings listed, but I'll just assume you have an AFFI and TI. So you, me and a guy that JUST got his AFF rating are standing on the DZ and this super tiny L4 student walks in. You weigh 220#'s (A guess), I weigh 160#'s and the new guy weighs 120# with a packet of ticktacs in his pocket. Well, the new guy JUST got his rating, has never done a real L4 and this student has a KNOWN spinning problem. Who should take the student? Only a fool would give the spinney L4 to the new guy.

The same thing should happen with the coach rating. If you just landed with a perfect L7 student and you and I are both needed on a L3... Why can't a heads up coach take the coach student up?

Yes, I know that this does not always happen... I know and have seen coach jumps that went to crap that I knew were going to go to crap even before the pair got on the plane.

BUT, this is a case of the leaders at the DZ letting a program run like crap... Not the program being crap.

Quote:
I've had Coach students who couldn't even properly cock their own P/C; but passed on all the core competencies for the course.

That is an issue with the coach program.... But would it be any better to have a guy with a camera that can't cock their own PC?

Quote:
3. How many of us have seen the number of DZs that utilize the Coach rating as a revenue generation tool, rather than an educational tool for the student.

Yes, but again that is an issue with the DZ, not the program.

Quote:
IMO - there should be a week long Instructor Training Course for AFF/I, one for TI (unless the AFF/I is held) and one for S/L and IAD

A great idea.

Quote:
Let's consider flipping the requirements for camera and Coach.

And then you will have people trying to video that have never passed ANY qualification program and might not know how to cock a PC..... Bad idea.

But what we have now is:

1. A coach program where the person has met a minimum set of defined skills, has made 100 jumps, and is under supervision in a defined training program which decides what jumps they are allowed to perform.

vs.

2. A guy with 200 jumps that has taken no instruction, has no proven skill sets, that can video pretty much whatever he wants without supervision.

I'll take #1 any and every day.

Now understand, if you wanted to create a "video course" where you teach young jumpers how to rig a helmet and then test them on the technical aspects of flying a camera... AND you were going to monitor them and decide which jumps they could and could not film... I'd have no problem with a guy with 100 jumps that has taken the class and is under supervision flying a camera.

Quote:
Then, how about that "Coach" be able to show the student some video during the debrief?

At 200+ jumps, they can do exactly that. The fact is that given the two situations given above, one has a program with proven skill sets that is under the supervision of an Instructor within a training program... the other is a guy strapping on a camera with no instruction, no one watching him, and no limits to what he can film.

Personally, I think the coach requirements are too low. But I also think that jumping a camera should require a class.

I don't think a single person would agree that a guy with 105 jumps and a still ink wet coach rating can teach as well as a guy with thousands of jumps and a worn out rating card.

But the coach rating is a START.


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