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Should a new jumper carry a hook knife?

 

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Kipu  (B License)

Feb 2, 2012, 9:32 PM
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Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? Can't Post

The subject line kinda says it all. Should we new jumpers carry hook knives, and if so, can you recommend one, and also, where does one carry it?

As always thanks. You guys are the best,

Josh


JohnRich  (D License)

Feb 2, 2012, 9:37 PM
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you know what to do with it: what it can be used for, and how to use it?

If the answers are "yes", then you should carry one.
If the answers are "no", then you should learn so that you can answer "yes".

However, a new jumper shouldn't go over-thinking malfunctions in order to try and find some way out of it with a hook knife. Stick to the basic emergency procedures. A hook knife is really only employed in very rare and highly unusual situations.

But it doesn't hurt to have one and not use it.

Mostly I just spend a lot of money on them, only to lose them.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Feb 2, 2012, 9:40 PM)


wildcard451  (D License)

Feb 2, 2012, 9:45 PM
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The subject line kinda says it all. Should we new jumpers carry hook knives, and if so, can you recommend one, and also, where does one carry it?

As always thanks. You guys are the best,

Josh

Sure, looking for it will give you something to occupy the last few seconds of your life.


Kipu  (B License)

Feb 2, 2012, 9:57 PM
Post #4 of 40 (2392 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Sure, looking for it will give you something to occupy the last few seconds of your life."

Never mind then. I had already allocated that time for high speed BM. Last thing I need is a frantic search interfering with my grand finale.


skinnay

Feb 2, 2012, 10:40 PM
Post #5 of 40 (2363 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The subject line kinda says it all. Should we new jumpers carry hook knives, and if so, can you recommend one, and also, where does one carry it?

As always thanks. You guys are the best,

Josh

Sure, looking for it will give you something to occupy the last few seconds of your life.

Can you elaborate on this logic? What if he has a premature reserve deployment in the door and is stuck on the tail?

IMO.. YES, you should have a hook knife. But you should learn what situations you would need it before your next jump.


Kipu  (B License)

Feb 2, 2012, 11:09 PM
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Re: [skinnay] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks folks. Skinn, I saw the recent post of the gal who was pushed out after an accidental activation of reserve at the door, and subsequent posts of a horrible accident due to a similar mal.

Some occasions that would benefit from the use of a knife seem self evident, but I wouldn't dare expect my current "common sense" to serve as a deciding factor. So, I guess the obvious question would be... where do I learn about causes for use, and the proper execution of knife use in the event of said causes? And again, where would one carry a hook knife? (I'm looking for functional, but style points are also important. There are ladies at my DZ). Tongue

Thanks again,
Josh


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 3, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #7 of 40 (2252 views)
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

No real downside to having one, and it might come in handy as this thread outlines. Laugh

The only downside to having it is if you start deciding that because you have it, it'll be cool to do in-air rigging on a malfunctioning main rather than executing your emergency procedures. There are some not-so-common scenarios where a hook knife can help you get out of trouble, but I'd go so far as to say the overwhelming majority of malfunctions are best solved by proper execution of emergency procedures, not MacGyvering a solution as you are moving at high speed towards a planet.


rwieder  (C 32349)

Feb 3, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #8 of 40 (2213 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

+1!


bluetwo  (C License)

Feb 3, 2012, 7:51 AM
Post #9 of 40 (2203 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No real downside to having one, and it might come in handy as this thread outlines. Laugh

The only downside to having it is if you start deciding that because you have it, it'll be cool to do in-air rigging on a malfunctioning main rather than executing your emergency procedures. There are some not-so-common scenarios where a hook knife can help you get out of trouble, but I'd go so far as to say the overwhelming majority of malfunctions are best solved by proper execution of emergency procedures, not MacGyvering a solution as you are moving at high speed towards a planet.

Thank you!! Seriously, big props for actually providing a place to learn about potential life saving procedures instead of just saying you need to go learn them.

I was seriously about to blast some people out for that, not that I wanted to. It's just not right in my opinion, actually in the real world that we occupy it's not right. Some people like to act like they are above helping I guess.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Feb 3, 2012, 8:03 AM
Post #10 of 40 (2194 views)
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you don't have a hook knife when you need one, you will probably never need one again.Wink


pompita  (A 62097)

Feb 3, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #11 of 40 (2167 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, I started thinking about this after my last jump.

On my last dive, I was on my first jump with a non-coach on a simple two way (jump #33), but I was a bit nervous since this was a significant jump for me. I tracked away at the end of the jump and did not reduce my speed enough prior to deploying (e.g., did not sufficiently return to neutral position before tossing the PC).

The result of this was that the bag smacked me on the top of my right foot as the PC pulled it from the container. I can't explain how or why that was but it happened (I'm guessing because of my speed). Luckily I had an uneventful deployment and remainder of the skydive, but I feel like I was close to a horseshoe malfunction.

Clearly, I will now focus on returning to not just a proper body position after a track, but also an appropriate reduction in speed before deploying. However, I wonder if one of the mals that a hook knife MIGHT be helpful with is a horseshoe. I agree that there are EPs that need to be adhered to, even for a horseshoe mal. But there are unquestionably certain very specific situations that may not be remediable with standard EPs.

I am a new jumper and had the hook knife question so I'm glad I ran across this thread. All this being said, I can only speculate on the use of a hook knife in a horseshoe situation, where really it's to cut away a line or two, altitude permitting, if reasonable. Is this accurate?

Thoughts?


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 3, 2012, 8:48 AM
Post #12 of 40 (2162 views)
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Re: [pompita] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

Horseshoes are best dealt with through prevention. They're one of those "no really good options" malfunctions, where your speed could vary from terminal or near-terminal to fairly slow. In the "fairly slow" situation you might have time to do some cutting, but in the terminal- or near-terminal situation, dicking around with your hook knife is not likely to improve the situation much, either, since you're looking at but a few seconds to impact, and your better (not great, but better) option is probably to attempt to get more fabric (e.g., reserve) over your head if you can't otherwise clear the horseshoe fairly quickly.

My personal feeling on a hook knife is that I hope to never need to use it on a skydive, but I don't want to be thinking "gee, a hook knife might have helped" and not have one.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 3, 2012, 8:53 AM
Post #13 of 40 (2156 views)
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And again, where would one carry a hook knife? (I'm looking for functional, but style points are also important. There are ladies at my DZ). Tongue

Thanks again,
Josh

I usually carry two (I'm an old CRW Pup), one on my chest strap and one in my leg pocket. In my 35 years, in the sport I've only used it once... because I couldn't get a tent stake out of the ground. Wink However, I feel confident knowing their both there. Cool

Also, I've see many people carry them in a pouch on the harness below the three rings. I believe Mirage has a pouch built into the harness... see attached.
Attachments: HookKnifeModel.jpg (11.0 KB)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 3, 2012, 8:58 AM
Post #14 of 40 (2151 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't the CRW dogs say to carry at least two because you'll drop at least one in the adrenaline rush? LaughLaugh


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 3, 2012, 9:01 AM
Post #15 of 40 (2149 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't the CRW dogs say to carry at least two because you'll drop at least one in the adrenaline rush? LaughLaugh

Oh, that's why I carry the third one under my helmet... Tongue


Zymurdoo  (D 16833)

Feb 3, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #16 of 40 (2132 views)
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

No one has pointed out which hook knife to use if you so choose.

Skip any hook knife made with a plastic handle, which can break when you use them. Also avoid any that have two separate knife blades, which can bind and trap the material needing to be cut.

Benchmade Hook/Safety cutters are the best on the market. Expensive but worth the money. They are machined from one piece of tempered steel. Some even have the requisite bottle opener for participating in post jump activities.

http://www.benchmade.com/...cue-Hook-Family2.pdf

http://www.benchmade.com/...st.aspx?keyword=hook


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 3, 2012, 9:30 AM
Post #17 of 40 (2121 views)
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Re: [pompita] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

A hookknife in a highspeed horseshoe mal, no. Don't try and use it for "run-of-the-mil" malfunctions.

It can't hurt to have one or 2 on you, just don't waste any valueable time with one during a mal. Basically, perform your EPs as trained and if that doesn't have the desired effect, or EPs aren't applicably, then a hookknife can be a life-saver.

If for instance your glove or swoopcord gets stuck on your (camera) helmet, a staticliner gets "hung-up" on the airplane, you want to try and fix a line-over on your reserve, or get rid of a buddy's canopy in a CRW wrap, then yes go for a hookknife.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 3, 2012, 10:35 AM
Post #18 of 40 (2083 views)
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Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I've used my knife a couple of times 'So Far' in my Skydiving career.

The 1st time to cut the static-line of a student in tow, and the second on a reserve line-over.

I don't do CReW so (for me) those two instances are about the only times I can (off the top of my head) think of where a hook-knife is an actual necessity...maybe slicing a stuck seat-belt in the event of an airplane crash evacuation.

You really have to be aware of what needs to be done and do it right if you're attempting any in-air rigging.

On the reserve line-over I had, I cut two of the WRONG lines prior to taking a hard look and doing it right. Trust me any more cutting in the wrong place might have been a drastic mistake...so be DAMN careful what you're doing.

That being said, I ALWAYS carry two on sport jumps and usually 3 on demos.

I have a couple of Bench-made knives, and several aluminum handled single blade units the gear store sells at my home DZ.

A couple of things I'd like to mention~

The cheapo plastic handle junkers are only good for cutting pull-up cords when packing. They are next to useless.

As someone stated earlier, if you decide on a knife that's blade replaceable...get the single blade unit only. Double blade knives sound better in theory, but material can bind up the blades and render it useless.

When deciding where to put your knife, make sure you can get to it quickly & easily with either hand.

Your hook-knife is a last ditch 'tool' you carry to save your life if/when necessary...treat it as such.

Check it now & then...keep it clean, sharp & rust free...importantly ~ NEVER cut anything with it unless you're in an emergency situation.

Unnecessary use may ding or dull the blade making it less efficient when you actually need to save yer butt.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 3, 2012, 1:43 PM)


indyz  (D 28525)

Feb 3, 2012, 4:29 PM
Post #19 of 40 (1987 views)
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Re: [pompita] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, I started thinking about this after my last jump.

On my last dive, I was on my first jump with a non-coach on a simple two way (jump #33), but I was a bit nervous since this was a significant jump for me. I tracked away at the end of the jump and did not reduce my speed enough prior to deploying (e.g., did not sufficiently return to neutral position before tossing the PC).

The result of this was that the bag smacked me on the top of my right foot as the PC pulled it from the container. I can't explain how or why that was but it happened (I'm guessing because of my speed). Luckily I had an uneventful deployment and remainder of the skydive, but I feel like I was close to a horseshoe malfunction.

Clearly, I will now focus on returning to not just a proper body position after a track, but also an appropriate reduction in speed before deploying. However, I wonder if one of the mals that a hook knife MIGHT be helpful with is a horseshoe. I agree that there are EPs that need to be adhered to, even for a horseshoe mal. But there are unquestionably certain very specific situations that may not be remediable with standard EPs.

I am a new jumper and had the hook knife question so I'm glad I ran across this thread. All this being said, I can only speculate on the use of a hook knife in a horseshoe situation, where really it's to cut away a line or two, altitude permitting, if reasonable. Is this accurate?

Thoughts?

A friend of mine had a horseshoe and tried to cut the bridle with his hook knife. He died with the knife in his hand and nothing out. Nothing is certain, but if he had just dumped his reserve he would probably still be around to tell the story. In this sort of high-speed situation, it is critical to get a parachute open. Sort out the mess once everything is slowed down.

FWIW, the best trackers in the world can throw out in a full track and not have anything hit their feet. My guess is that you were either in a steep dive instead of a good flat track, or you put your feet way up on your butt as you came out of your track and threw, or some combination of both. Try to get a more experienced jumper to video your track.


SStewart  (D 10405)

Feb 3, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #20 of 40 (1982 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've used my knife a couple of times 'So Far' in my Skydiving career.

The 1st time to cut the static-line of a student in tow, and the second on a reserve line-over.

I don't do CReW so (for me) those two instances are about the only times I can (off the top of my head) think of where a hook-knife is an actual necessity...maybe slicing a stuck seat-belt in the event of an airplane crash evacuation.

You really have to be aware of what needs to be done and do it right if you're attempting any in-air rigging.

On the reserve line-over I had, I cut two of the WRONG lines prior to taking a hard look and doing it right. Trust me any more cutting in the wrong place might have been a drastic mistake...so be DAMN careful what you're doing.

That being said, I ALWAYS carry two on sport jumps and usually 3 on demos.

I have a couple of Bench-made knives, and several aluminum handled single blade units the gear store sells at my home DZ.

A couple of things I'd like to mention~

The cheapo plastic handle junkers are only good for cutting pull-up cords when packing. They are next to useless.

As someone stated earlier, if you decide on a knife that's blade replaceable...get the single blade unit only. Double blade knives sound better in theory, but material can bind up the blades and render it useless.

When deciding where to put your knife, make sure you can get to it quickly & easily with either hand.

Your hook-knife is a last ditch 'tool' you carry to save your life if/when necessary...treat it as such.

Check it now & then...keep it clean, sharp & rust free...importantly ~ NEVER cut anything with it unless you're in an emergency situation.

Unnecessary use may ding or dull the blade making it less efficient when you actually need to save yer butt.

+ 1

I started doing CRW and got my static line JM rating about the same time and that was when I started jumping with a knife. It became habit so now I just consider it part of the gear. Just one of the tools in the toy box.

Very unlikely I will ever need it now with the type of jumping I do but I still like knowing it is there.


SStewart  (D 10405)

Feb 3, 2012, 4:44 PM
Post #21 of 40 (1974 views)
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Re: [pompita] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, I started thinking about this after my last jump.

On my last dive, I was on my first jump with a non-coach on a simple two way (jump #33), but I was a bit nervous since this was a significant jump for me. I tracked away at the end of the jump and did not reduce my speed enough prior to deploying (e.g., did not sufficiently return to neutral position before tossing the PC).

The result of this was that the bag smacked me on the top of my right foot as the PC pulled it from the container. I can't explain how or why that was but it happened (I'm guessing because of my speed). Luckily I had an uneventful deployment and remainder of the skydive, but I feel like I was close to a horseshoe malfunction.

Clearly, I will now focus on returning to not just a proper body position after a track, but also an appropriate reduction in speed before deploying. However, I wonder if one of the mals that a hook knife MIGHT be helpful with is a horseshoe. I agree that there are EPs that need to be adhered to, even for a horseshoe mal. But there are unquestionably certain very specific situations that may not be remediable with standard EPs.

I am a new jumper and had the hook knife question so I'm glad I ran across this thread. All this being said, I can only speculate on the use of a hook knife in a horseshoe situation, where really it's to cut away a line or two, altitude permitting, if reasonable. Is this accurate?

Thoughts?

During your student training what were you instructed to do in the event of a horseshoe?

That is what you should stick with.

I can think of many situations where a hook knife will come in handy but a horseshoe is not one of them.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 3, 2012, 4:55 PM
Post #22 of 40 (1965 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
An old jumper I knew use to say the only thing it was good for is cutting your throat to prevent 'impact' as the cause of death! Sly


theonlyski  (D License)

Feb 3, 2012, 6:40 PM
Post #23 of 40 (1921 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
An old jumper I knew use to say the only thing it was good for is cutting your throat to prevent 'impact' as the cause of death! Sly

Musta been one of them pencil necks!


Reginald  (D 28162)

Feb 3, 2012, 10:41 PM
Post #24 of 40 (1876 views)
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The subject line kinda says it all. Should we new jumpers carry hook knives, and if so, can you recommend one, and also, where does one carry it?

There is a school of thought that even with training on how to use one students are more likely to misuse one than properly use one. I.e. die trying to do mid air rigging as opposed to just cutting away a simple main mal. I'm not saying I agree with it but few schools equip students with knifes.


Kipu  (B License)

Feb 4, 2012, 12:40 AM
Post #25 of 40 (1861 views)
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Re: [Kipu] Should a new jumper carry a hook knife? [In reply to] Can't Post

Allllllright then.... I'm new to the sport and newer to the forums.

So, is this kind of inconclusiveness something I should get used to? Please do not intemperate this question as any form of disrespect. I'm thrilled to get the responses, even if they leave me just as questionable as where I was when I started.

Here's one maybe all of you can agree on...

When I recover from my broken ankle, and begin jumping again in April I would like to make my first skydive back a special one. It will be my 17th jump, and since that is how old my wife was when we began dating, it only seems appropriate that I should spread her fathers ashes during my free fall. (Wow, that man did not like me!)

Anyway, because I'm a sentimental man and want the moment to last, I was thinking a wing-suit would be the only appropriate way. Now, documentation is immeasurably important and can only be done properly through video. I have no "GoPro" or any other newfangled equipment. However, I do have my uncles old VHS recorder and a football helmet from my sophomore year.

NOW I KNOW WHAT YOU"RE THINKING!!!!! What about the music? And this brings us to the reason for the post.

Granted, I will be listening to my Ipod while jumping a wing suit and filming the spreading of my father in laws ashes, but I will have a hook knife in case anything on this 3,500ft hop n pop goes wrong.

Finally, the question! Are you thinking a rock n roll thing or maybe R n B over the edited footage? My first thought was classical, but I don't wanna cramp in on the "Chariots of Fire" style. Any input is appreciated.

Mahalo,

Josh


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