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Can "experience" be a bad thing?

 

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JohnRich  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 11:43 AM
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

It beats the heck out of ignorance.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 21, 2010, 11:49 AM
Post #27 of 63 (1791 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It beats the heck out of ignorance.

I've seen cases where it hurt more than helped


JohnRich  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 2:20 PM
Post #28 of 63 (1760 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It beats the heck out of ignorance.

I've seen cases where it hurt more than helped

There are always exceptions. But 9 times out of 10, I'll take experience over ignorance. Even 99 times out of 100.


RIGGER160  (D 12345)

Jun 21, 2010, 4:23 PM
Post #29 of 63 (1740 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
It beats the heck out of ignorance.

I've seen cases where it hurt more than helped

There are always exceptions. But 9 times out of 10, I'll take experience over ignorance. Even 99 times out of 100.

But sometimes old experiance can mean new ignorance


Chrisky

Jun 21, 2010, 4:32 PM
Post #30 of 63 (1740 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

More speed helps maintain pressurization inside the canopy since the air pressure on the leading edge increases along with the canopies foward speed. The question is how much of that added pressurization is lost by distorting the canopies airfoil profile by using front risers (or breaks for that matter).

I don't see how using breaks would stabilize the canopy more than full flight since it takes away speed (other than the reference of older 7cell canopies noses opening...).

It's a misconception that when using front riser the air hits the canopy "on top", as the caopy is inside the airflow and not fixed to the ground. It is loosing altitude faster because of the change in trim/glide angle and significantly changed lift vector, but that is independent of wind speed.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jun 21, 2010, 5:00 PM
Post #31 of 63 (1739 views)
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Re: [Chrisky] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

>I don't see how using breaks would stabilize the canopy more than
>full flight since it takes away speed . . .

In general, the pressurization effect is the most minor influence on canopy stability of all factors contributing to it. To test this, inflate an air mattress and try to hold it rigid from one end while blocking a 20mph wind (about a canopy's airspeed.) It won't even come close to resisting it. Now consider that your canopy has 1/10 the pressure that that air mattress has.

The resistance provided by the lines is 90% of the reason your canopy does not collapse. (That's why trim is so important.)


JohnRich  (D License)

Jun 21, 2010, 7:08 PM
Post #32 of 63 (1719 views)
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Re: [RIGGER160] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"I've seen cases..."
"But sometimes..."

Some of you guys want to focus on the rare exceptions and make it sound like experience is generally a bad thing. But the bottom line remains: experience is a very GOOD thing in the vast majority of situations.

Unless you want to start telling me that whuffos and A-license newbies know more about skydiving than people with thousands of jumps and decades of experience.

The answer to the question in the title is, of course, "yes". But that's when equipment or techniques change to render the old experience no longer valid. Nevertheless, for the vast majority of situations, experience is still a plus to have. Even experience which is rendered no longer valid, is still better than no experience at all.

Who could fly a ram-air parachute better? A first-jump student with nothing but classroom training, or an old fart from the 60's with a couple of hundred jumps on a round Paracommander? My bet would be on the guy with the round canopy experience.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Jun 21, 2010, 7:15 PM)


RIGGER160  (D 12345)

Jun 21, 2010, 7:26 PM
Post #33 of 63 (1712 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Who could fly a ram-air parachute better? A first-jump student with nothing but classroom training, or an old fart from the 60's with a couple of hundred jumps on a round Paracommander? My bet would be on the guy with the round canopy experience.
The phrase "You cant teach an old dog new tricks" comes to mind. Its not always the case but yeah sometimes or a lot of times people are stuck in their ways.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 21, 2010, 7:42 PM
Post #34 of 63 (1710 views)
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Re: [RIGGER160] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Who could fly a ram-air parachute better? A first-jump student with nothing but classroom training, or an old fart from the 60's with a couple of hundred jumps on a round Paracommander? My bet would be on the guy with the round canopy experience.

The phrase "You cant teach an old dog new tricks" comes to mind. Its not always the case but yeah sometimes or a lot of times people are stuck in their ways.
sure - and there's a post elsewhere where a very "experiences" jumper says he won't jump an 'airfoil' in winds over 20..... only his PC...


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 21, 2010, 7:48 PM
Post #35 of 63 (1709 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some of you guys want to focus on the rare exceptions and make it sound like experience is generally a bad thing. But the bottom line remains: experience is a very GOOD thing in the vast majority of situations..

"making it sound like experience is generally a bad thing" Unsure wow, you just completely swung a strike now didn't you?

you dork - the whole thread is about putting out those rare exceptions and laughing at ourselves and our stubborn types that won't learn new tricks = sometimes as a real detriment to teaching the pups

experience says we can 'learn' from this discussion but if your pride is hurt, I'll buy you a beer

so far - a bunch of people with at least 2000 jumps putting out decent examples, one newbie asking a question and getting decent answers, and you with a sore butt from the topic.......who do you think missed the intent of the thread????


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jun 21, 2010, 7:51 PM)


tetra316  (D 26945)

Jun 21, 2010, 7:50 PM
Post #36 of 63 (1705 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually he said 15.Tongue


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jun 21, 2010, 7:55 PM
Post #37 of 63 (1701 views)
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Re: [tetra316] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's another - "front risering while flying upwind is more dangerous than while flying downwind - because the headwind will roll the nose under...."


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jun 22, 2010, 7:16 AM
Post #38 of 63 (1659 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Some of you guys want to focus on the rare exceptions and make it sound like experience is generally a bad thing. But the bottom line remains: experience is a very GOOD thing in the vast majority of situations..

"making it sound like experience is generally a bad thing" Unsure wow, you just completely swung a strike now didn't you?

you dork - the whole thread is about putting out those rare exceptions and laughing at ourselves and our stubborn types that won't learn new tricks = sometimes as a real detriment to teaching the pups

experience says we can 'learn' from this discussion but if your pride is hurt, I'll buy you a beer

so far - a bunch of people with at least 2000 jumps putting out decent examples, one newbie asking a question and getting decent answers, and you with a sore butt from the topic.......who do you think missed the intent of the thread????
This pup appreciates this thread bc I learned something from it. I just hope I will continue to learn and not get stuck in my ways. I'd like to think that's what I will do but it is easy to fall in to that trap the more experience one gains. Still..... experience is priceless!


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jun 22, 2010, 7:18 AM
Post #39 of 63 (1659 views)
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Re: [RIGGER160] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

True statement, but too many also believe you can have competence with out experience.

Competence is relative too, or equal too, ones level of maturity, training, practice and performance, also known as experience.

IMO you can not have one with out the other. Just ones "Experience" may be less as they have been around less, but for the experience they have they are very "competent" at that level.

Matt


JohanW  (D 86318)

Jun 22, 2010, 8:16 AM
Post #40 of 63 (1640 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
- You should always go to quarter or half brakes in turbulence.
For some reason I remember Brian Germain teaching that..... or am I just wrong? Maybe he taught not to do that? I give a little front risers in turbulence. Is that okay?
speed is your friend for many of the newer canopies

partial brakes was a correct response on older 7 cells to help open the nose for more inflation - newer canopies appreciate more speed over inlet angle - someone help me with this one - I don't think I'm explaining as clearly as it's needed

Wendy - the brakes thing I still see taught (incorrectly for most canopies) today.
So inducing more speed via front risers is correct? I get what you are saying and actually I think that is exactly what Brian says about modern canopies.
Actually, what Brian teaches is inducing speed by gentle harness turns. No riser input, but induced speed does help. More speed means speed changes induced by turbulence are smaller, relatively speaking.

Or maybe this is last week's teaching already also .. Tongue


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jun 25, 2010, 10:18 PM
Post #41 of 63 (1580 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
45 degree rule for separation - need I say more? and this is a dangerous one. It's an old time rule that needs to be crushed.

Old time rule my ass. I've been jumping for 25 years and never heard about this f*cked up technique until a couple years ago. It may be "old time" to newer jumpers, but I can assure you something as ill-conceived as the "45 rule" didn't come from the true "old timers".

Math didn't slip past us old guys. Time from exit to exit is the only sure-fire way to achieve proper separation, and that will never change. Physics has served us well...so far, at least.


Chris_K  (C 3228)

Jul 13, 2010, 6:16 AM
Post #42 of 63 (1460 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
priming the pump:

1 - slow fall (beach ball is still recommended by old timers). IMHO with booties, long and flat is where it's at

2 - 45 degree rule for separation - need I say more? and this is a dangerous one. It's an old time rule that needs to be crushed.

3 - vertical separation matters for exit order (absolutely not a primary concern over winddrift)

4 - I see a lot of oldtimers that just don't ever finish their flares on HP canopies. But they do seem to still be able to run pretty good. Tongue

any more?


Nice list, but no.1 is not that bad to teach. Getting big should be the first thing but the "ride the beachball" technique is a good way of getting students to de-arch. This used in conjunction with the "get big" is the most effective slow falling technique.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 13, 2010, 1:00 PM
Post #43 of 63 (1411 views)
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Re: [Chris_K] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
priming the pump:

1 - slow fall (beach ball is still recommended by old timers). IMHO with booties, long and flat is where it's at

2 - 45 degree rule for separation - need I say more? and this is a dangerous one. It's an old time rule that needs to be crushed.

3 - vertical separation matters for exit order (absolutely not a primary concern over winddrift)

4 - I see a lot of oldtimers that just don't ever finish their flares on HP canopies. But they do seem to still be able to run pretty good. Tongue

any more?


Nice list, but no.1 is not that bad to teach. Getting big should be the first thing but the "ride the beachball" technique is a good way of getting students to de-arch. This used in conjunction with the "get big" is the most effective slow falling technique.

You probably have more experience than I do but I totally disagree with yuor statement. The "Beach ball ride" is a horrible way to teach dearching. jmho

Usiny ones hips, head, and rest of the body properly is the way to teach descent rate changes.


(This post was edited by Rstanley0312 on Jul 13, 2010, 1:01 PM)


camamel  (D 333)

Jul 20, 2010, 7:30 PM
Post #44 of 63 (1300 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Skydiving is like any other sport. Experience worth gold, if...and only if the skydiver is still current.

Richard


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 21, 2010, 6:32 AM
Post #45 of 63 (1255 views)
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Re: [camamel] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skydiving is like any other sport. Experience worth gold, if...and only if the skydiver is still current.

that's the real point I'm getting at


Chris_K  (C 3228)

Feb 2, 2012, 6:31 AM
Post #46 of 63 (1069 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

I stopped using the "hug the beach ball" approach as I've seen more novices simply stick there ass up in the air while still arching there chest and having there knees bent.

Instead I will walk them throught the full movement:

Steps:
1. Flex abs (flatens torso)
2. Roll shoulder (full roll, not just pushing the shoulder forward)
3. Put positive pressure through your finger tips, pointing at a 45 degree angle downward and away.

Method:
1. Have the stand up, nice and relaxed, feet shoulder width apart, arms by there side.
2. Have them arch (so they lean back as far as possible, getting tension on there abs and thigh muscles)
3. While they are leaning back ask them to flex there abs. Doing so will pull them forward, starting to flatten them out.
4. Have them stand up tall again.
5. Get them to place there right hand on there left pectoral (so they will feel the difference from the next move)
6. Have them first push there shoulder forward (they will feeel a little "cupping" as the pec gets pulled back)
7. have them stand up tall again.
8. Place hand on pec.
9. Have them roll the shoulder UP (first, very important step) and then forward. This will produce a significantly larger "cupping" then just sliding the shoulder forward.
10. Pull it all together. Have them arch, then flex abs (pulls the forward), then roll shoulders up and forward (while still flexing abs, then have them point there fingers at a 45 degree angle.

If the abs, chest and shoulders are all flexed it will create a very solid "cup".

Last step would be to teach them to put there chin to chest (at the instructors disgression, pending the comfort of the student) for a full upper torso de-arch.

This will get the to the end state of "hugging the beachball" but gets them there by doing the proper chaining of movements so they know what that positiion should feel like (muscle memory).

For the competitors I actively encourage them to do this same process at home while standing at a right angle to a full legth mirror. That way they can arch to the extreme and "cup" to the extreme to develop the muscle memory through repetition, the mirror is important so they see that they are adapting the right body position in to develop the proper muscle memory.

I did not mention legs. this I add in after a successful slow fall skydive (or tunnel) with the torso, afterall the torso if the largest percentage of your exposed surface area in belly flying, use it.


This is the same torso exercise for the track, just the arms are swept down and slightly forward instead of above the head.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 2, 2012, 7:06 AM
Post #47 of 63 (1052 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It beats the heck out of ignorance.

I've seen cases where it hurt more than helped

Sometimes it happens that it's better to be lucky than good.
Unsure


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 2, 2012, 7:23 AM
Post #48 of 63 (1044 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
From ChrisK:
Nice list, but no.1 is not that bad to teach. Getting big should be the first thing but the "ride the beachball" technique is a good way of getting students to de-arch. This used in conjunction with the "get big" is the most effective slow falling technique.
.
.
In reply to:
Rstanley0312
You probably have more experience than I do but I totally disagree with yuor statement. The "Beach ball ride" is a horrible way to teach dearching. jmho. Usiny ones hips, head, and rest of the body properly is the way to teach descent rate changes.

Not saying either one of you is wrong....just kind of summarizing for everyone.

Consider this, guys.
To whom are you teaching slow-fall?
Students.

Why would you teach the "beach ball"?
For students, it works and it's the most stable technique.

Is it the most efficient?
No. There are more efficient ways to slow fall rate. The catch is that those more-efficient techniques are less stable.

When would you teach those more-efficient techniques?
IMO, when the student demonstrates very good stability skills.

This approach is no different than the general approach to teaching student is all about. Give them the basics and when they can demonstrate those skills, teach them more advanced techniques.



Now back to the OP:

I am surprised the nobody has yet mentioned "complacency" as related to experience being a bad thing. We all know how that works, eh?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 2, 2012, 7:34 AM
Post #49 of 63 (1038 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you ignore advancements in technology and/or techniques, yes.

Sometimes even going with advancements in technology and/or techniques can be a bad thing.

-depending on GPS for exit point.
(spotting has become a lost art)

-at one time reversed risers were considered a good idea.

-ropes and rings fortunately didn't last long


Chris_K  (C 3228)

Feb 2, 2012, 8:21 AM
Post #50 of 63 (1013 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Can "experience" be a bad thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Consider this, guys.
To whom are you teaching slow-fall?
Students.

Why would you teach the "beach ball"?
For students, it works and it's the most stable technique.

Fair enough. I am simply stating the method to get your student to the "beach ball" position. Too often student are just told "ride the beachball" without even being walked through the step by step of how to make that happen. If you only tell them somethign they will never learn it properly in a physical sport.

Too often I simply see students in the air with there ass pushed out and dropping there knees to "ride the beachball" as they were never taught how to do it properly.

Unfortunately I still see this on bigways with fair experiecned jumpers that they panic, push the ass out and drop there knees, trying to get into the "beachball" position and they simply fall away faster.


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