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MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers

 

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popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2012, 2:23 PM
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MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers Can't Post

..and it wouldn't hurt a whole helluva lot of experienced jumpers to read it too.

This was posted by Airtwardo in the General Skydive forum and it's talking about knowing your emergency procedures. A fatality of a young jumper not responding properly generated Airtwardo's post.

ALL YOU YOUNG JUMPERS...
Please read
And please, please, PLEASE, heed the message. It's for YOUR benefit.

-------------------------
By Airtwardo:

I don't want to drift the thread too much, but I think since you made that statement, it's important to expand on it just a little.

Always keep in mind that avoiding death or injury in Skydiving is not just about 'reacting'.

It centers around reacting correctly, with-in a certain set of time/altitude parameters, to a dynamically changing set of circumstances.

That's a WHOLE bunch of variables that one needs to be cognisant of and able to sort out 'on the fly' so to speak.

Recognizing correctly what exactly is going on, why and what you need to do now ...is what increases your odds of not being injured. It's something that can be explained & studied, however since those skills are to ultimately be used in a stressful environment...practical application is imperative.

The reason students are trained the way they are, is it exposes them to the basic 'environment' with as few variables to deal with as is practical with a greater margin of time/altitude that an experienced jumper will ordinarily have.

As a newer jumper 'building air time' ya gotta understand that every little extra 'variable' you throw into the jump equation, will have an effect on the what, when & how you need to react.

More people on the dive for example...now you have to track away from them. may HAVE to go lower than usual cutting time/altitude...now THAT changes how you will deal with say line-twist.

A real basic example just to illustrate that second by second changes during the skydive can effect the proper and safe reaction.

The drill is to fully understand all the possibilities and the correct reaction to them.

It's what the commonly heard 'you don't even know, what all you don't know' comment is all about...the more you jump the more you 'understand' the changing dynamics going on and the multitude of variables that come into play.

A lot of us get to the 1000 jump range before finally seeing...'I don't know SQUAT!' Wink

You have to actively work on continually expanding your base of knowledge...it's the foundation and has to be strong.

Understand that adding the weight of more complexity means you also add to the foundation in order to support that weight.

It's having that solid foundation of understanding exactly what, when & how to do what needs to be done that solidifies the confidence with-in yourself that you will survive because the tools are there ...and you unquestionably know how to use them.

The most common reason you wouldn't react is because your are faced with something you're not confident you can deal with because you don't understand it.

Basically... when under stress, when we don't know what to do ~ we do nothing.

Don't EVER let yourself get in that situation.

My speculation on this fatality is that the jumper didn't grasp what was happening, even early on higher up. As the situation deteriorated he understood less & less what was happening, why and what to do.

Losing altitude & options with every second only snowballs the 'do nothing' reaction. You see it in any sport, the mind says ~ 'what is happening, why is this happening, I don't know what I'm supposed do' and the body just freezes up.



So don't say 'it could certainly happen to me' regarding 'not' reacting.

Train your mind and your body that you WILL react, you will assess, understand and perform. You HAVE no other option.

IF you allow yourself to believe that non-reaction is a possibility...you are 100% placing your life in the hands of a back-up device, and as shown in the incident being discussed, the reliability of those devices is also directly effected by a WHOLE lotta variables.

----------------------------------

Bottom line:
Know your EPs. Drill 'em until you can do them in your sleep.


ferrarimv

Jan 31, 2012, 1:12 AM
Post #2 of 26 (3110 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

thank you SOOOooo much for this post...

I got it written in my mind 100%.....REACT...and always always...DO SOMETHING...

Thank you!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 31, 2012, 2:58 AM
Post #3 of 26 (3076 views)
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Re: [ferrarimv] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
thank you SOOOooo much for this post...

I got it written in my mind 100%.....REACT...and always always...DO SOMETHING...

Thank you!

Thanks to 'Twardo, eh?

Oh...and train yourself so that the "something" you do is the proper something to do.
My hat is off to you.


spage  (C License)

Jan 31, 2012, 7:03 AM
Post #4 of 26 (2966 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for Airtwardo for the writeup, and thanks to popsjumper for this thread! I am sure this is something that cannot be overemphasized.

As a new jumper, I have been reviewing EPs in my mind all winter and hope to demonstrate proficiency at the upcoming safety day. Hopefully I never have to demonstrate EPs in the air, but I know it will probably happen some day - better to prepare for it now.


During the FJC we would hang in the suspended harness and practice EPs while our instructor held photos of various malfunctions over our heads. We had to demonstrate the proper reaction before we went in the air. Is anyone aware of a malfunction "flashcard" program or web page that would facilitate this at home?

How do other jumpers practice their EPs at home?


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Jan 31, 2012, 9:24 AM
Post #5 of 26 (2900 views)
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Re: [spage] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

That would be a cool idea. Who out there is an iOS programmer? Being able to put malfunction photos on an iPad for showing would be very cool. And have some sort of feedback mechanism maybe.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 31, 2012, 10:34 AM
Post #6 of 26 (2859 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Who out there is an iOS programmer? Being able to put malfunction photos on an iPad for showing would be very cool.

No need for programming skills to put malfunction photos on an ipad. Tongue


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jan 31, 2012, 10:51 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
..and it wouldn't hurt a whole helluva lot of experienced jumpers to read it too.

This was posted by Airtwardo in the General Skydive forum and it's talking about knowing your emergency procedures. A fatality of a young jumper not responding properly generated Airtwardo's post.

ALL YOU YOUNG JUMPERS...
Please read
And please, please, PLEASE, heed the message. It's for YOUR benefit.

-------------------------
By Airtwardo:

I don't want to drift the thread too much, but I think since you made that statement, it's important to expand on it just a little.

Always keep in mind that avoiding death or injury in Skydiving is not just about 'reacting'.

It centers around reacting correctly, with-in a certain set of time/altitude parameters, to a dynamically changing set of circumstances.

That's a WHOLE bunch of variables that one needs to be cognisant of and able to sort out 'on the fly' so to speak.

Recognizing correctly what exactly is going on, why and what you need to do now ...is what increases your odds of not being injured. It's something that can be explained & studied, however since those skills are to ultimately be used in a stressful environment...practical application is imperative.

The reason students are trained the way they are, is it exposes them to the basic 'environment' with as few variables to deal with as is practical with a greater margin of time/altitude that an experienced jumper will ordinarily have.

As a newer jumper 'building air time' ya gotta understand that every little extra 'variable' you throw into the jump equation, will have an effect on the what, when & how you need to react.

More people on the dive for example...now you have to track away from them. may HAVE to go lower than usual cutting time/altitude...now THAT changes how you will deal with say line-twist.

A real basic example just to illustrate that second by second changes during the skydive can effect the proper and safe reaction.

The drill is to fully understand all the possibilities and the correct reaction to them.

It's what the commonly heard 'you don't even know, what all you don't know' comment is all about...the more you jump the more you 'understand' the changing dynamics going on and the multitude of variables that come into play.

A lot of us get to the 1000 jump range before finally seeing...'I don't know SQUAT!' Wink

You have to actively work on continually expanding your base of knowledge...it's the foundation and has to be strong.

Understand that adding the weight of more complexity means you also add to the foundation in order to support that weight.

It's having that solid foundation of understanding exactly what, when & how to do what needs to be done that solidifies the confidence with-in yourself that you will survive because the tools are there ...and you unquestionably know how to use them.

The most common reason you wouldn't react is because your are faced with something you're not confident you can deal with because you don't understand it.

Basically... when under stress, when we don't know what to do ~ we do nothing.

Don't EVER let yourself get in that situation.

My speculation on this fatality is that the jumper didn't grasp what was happening, even early on higher up. As the situation deteriorated he understood less & less what was happening, why and what to do.

Losing altitude & options with every second only snowballs the 'do nothing' reaction. You see it in any sport, the mind says ~ 'what is happening, why is this happening, I don't know what I'm supposed do' and the body just freezes up.



So don't say 'it could certainly happen to me' regarding 'not' reacting.

Train your mind and your body that you WILL react, you will assess, understand and perform. You HAVE no other option.

IF you allow yourself to believe that non-reaction is a possibility...you are 100% placing your life in the hands of a back-up device, and as shown in the incident being discussed, the reliability of those devices is also directly effected by a WHOLE lotta variables.

----------------------------------

Bottom line:
Know your EPs. Drill 'em until you can do them in your sleep.

Great stuff.... it is great for my low timer mind to read. I think this is a post I will revisit over and over for many years to come. Twardo..... you da man!


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 31, 2012, 12:39 PM
Post #8 of 26 (2782 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Great stuff.... it is great for my low timer mind to read. I think this is a post I will revisit over and over for many years to come. Twardo..... you da man!

In reply to:

Thanks Wink

In the original thread this was posted, someone commented on an extremely low-pull fatality in which it appears the jumper did nothing until seconds prior to impact. And when he did do something it was the WRONG thing.

The comment was something on the order of ~

'it could certainly happen to me'

~ referencing I believe the speculation that the deceased 'froze up' possibly due to being overwhelmed.

That raised an eyebrow because IF my understanding of the statement 'could happen to me' is correct, then that person is not as confident in their abilities as they need to be, and even worse ...they Know it.

I wanted to address that because if you actually 'know' that you're not 100% up to speed and competent ~ ya better stay on the ground until your 'know' you are!

Bettin' the ranch by depending on things you really have no positive control over, like Prayer, Luck & Battery Boxes ~ is the best way I know of to insure a really brief and probably painful skydiving career.







~In skydiving we often talk about the 'Chain Of Disaster' ...most incidents can be traced back to the failure of the jumper to recognize and understand various factors (or links) that in some way could/will have a drastic negative effect on the outcome of the jump.

We can usually deal with ONE link...a standard malfunction for example.

Adding another link tremendously decreases the odds of survival ...not being current, or being tired and hungover very well could negatively effect your ability to handle the 'standard malfunction' of link one.

The 3rd link is what gets ya in the meat-wagon ...adding one MORE thing occurring that's out of your usual comfort zone tends to overwhelm most peoples abilities to function as needed.

Having a standard malfunction, while tired & hung-over ...jumping a borrowed rig you've never had on before is no question a bad idea, but for some people with lots of luck in their bucket, it's probably do-able.

Dumb & dangerous ~but certainly it's quite possible to handle 'that' 3 link situation. Obviously you're really stacking the odds against yourself, foolishly adding real risk where it isn't necessary.

Now consider THIS for a moment, ~ the 3 links described above are reasonably obvious ones ...WHAT about the links you're not aware of that could factor into the jump anytime after boarding?

Imaging having to deal with a 'standard malfunction' while tired & hung-over, on a borrowed rig you've never jumped before~ ...and then right about the altitude after take off you're callin' your main canopy hard deck ~ the spinner quits! ShockedSly



Yeah, Yeah, I know...but ya get my point! Wink





It's really important to recognize any and all of the possible links in YOUR chain well before boarding the aircraft.

Most of the links you can remove, but you have to know they're there before you can take steps to do that.

They come in all shapes & sizes, but the color is usually a shade of camouflage. Ya really gotta pay attention and look hard for 'em.

The more you KNOW & understand about the sport, the better you are at picking out and nullifying links in the chain.

That's why we old fossils try to impress upon the newer jumpers the importance of maybe 'slowing it down' a notch or two before doing some of the things you maybe don't fully understand.

Knowing fully what it is, how to do it, what all 'could' go wrong & how to deal with that if it does~

~ May 'sound' like simple, easy, common sense steps (and sometimes maybe they are) ...but notice there are 4 steps there, more & more often these days its seems people either consciously or not, skip over one or two of 'em.

Tough to 'react as needed' if you don't know what to react to ~ or how ...MAJOR links in the Chain of Disaster.

What it comes down to is your ~ Situational Awareness.

Obviously the better aware you are of ALL the factors you will be dealing with, the higher your odds are of being successful.

Information alone won't save your life in this sport ...but it's the first step in creating the tools you can & will need to successfully participate.


The lack of situational awareness is the catalyst for complacency.

COMPLACENCY: Contentment Accompanied by Unawareness of Danger.


Talk about a major chain link, there a a whole lot more threads in the incident forum in which complacency played a significant role, than there are in which it wasn't a factor.

Complacency kills! ...be Prepared, take the time to Understand & Practice, only then Perform! Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 31, 2012, 3:58 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 31, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #9 of 26 (2744 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
~In skydiving we often talk about the 'Chain Of Disaster' ...most incidents can be traced back to the failure of the jumper to recognize and understand various factors (or links) that in some way could/will have a drastic negative effect on the outcome of the jump.

Twardo, the information you have shared here is absolutely priceless. I recently put myself into a 3 link chain of mistakes and ended up going from waving off high to releasing my reserve brakes at 400 feet. It's scary, scary fast how quickly the mistakes can add up and I feel that I did a pretty competent job handling the ones I could fix. I don't have much experience, but those with less may not have made it out of the fire I started for myself.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 31, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #10 of 26 (2669 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That would be a cool idea. Who out there is an iOS programmer? Being able to put malfunction photos on an iPad for showing would be very cool. And have some sort of feedback mechanism maybe.

I have some few small-format/sized pics. I don't recall where I got them so I can't credit the photographer or owner but I'll take a chance on getting bitch-slapped and post them....

Hope it helps some.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 31, 2012, 5:35 PM)
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BMichaeli  (C License)

Feb 1, 2012, 6:21 PM
Post #11 of 26 (2507 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks! thats a great post.

A few weekends ago during the Mountain State Boogie at Skyventure Colorado Greg Rau from UPT gave a great seminar on the importance of fighting to save your own life till you're ether passed out or dead. One of the things he mentioned was never become complacent within this sport and it's your life to save, take control. If you ever get the opportunity to hear him talk about it i highly recommend it.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 3, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Re: [BMichaeli] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

...the importance of fighting to save your own life till you're ether passed out or dead.


~WAY back in the 70's I belonged to a small club when I started out, that would fill time during weather holds or beer-light bonfires with the 'What-If' game.

An entertaining and enlightening way of discussing a wide variety of possible scenarios and addressing the solutions to surviving them.

'You're Dead' was directed at the person who's turn it was to be on the hot-seat and answer questions.

Initially starting out with covering the basic & simple...invariably the person answering would then be given what-if's regarding how they would react to uncommon or seldom occurring variables 'on top' of the first problem encountered.

It served to spot light things one doesn't ordinarily think of.

It keeps the possibilities fresh in everyone's mind, as well as what to do about them.

The what-if's wouldn't end satisfactorily with a single answer like they tend to do during initial jump training...like 'Cut Away'.

Compound theoretical problems would serve to sharpen your thought process and add to everyone's overall understanding.

The drill is to answer fast, correctly and at times rather creatively when pressed. . .a great exercise.

Answering fast & accurate was the only way to get things moving onto the next 'Dead' jumper in waiting.

It was priceless feedback from seasoned jumpers on not only the things being discussed...but also the need to HAVE those plays in your book ~and be able to reference them quickly.




~We all know (or should) that visualization of success adds a tremendous positive edge regarding performance.

Running through what could go wrong (or right for that matter) in your minds eye, reduces some of the stress, shortens the reaction time and builds your confidence during the performance of what you visualized ...because you to some extent, on an 'internal level' have already B.T.D.T.

The next time you're ground bound & bored, day-dreaming about being in the sky...maybe throw a couple a few ~'What-Ifs' ~ into that technicolor mind-movie.

If you can't come up with a satisfactory solution, talk to a mentor and figure one out...there really are no stupid questions ya know! Wink




~One thing I clearly recall most during a ~ What-IF ~ game early on in my Skydiving, was the frustrated answer a fellow n00b gave after 5 or 6 'other' things were thrown into the mix regarding his answer...

"Well I sure as Hell will be doing SOMETHING until my goggles fill with blood ...nobody will ever say that I GAVE UP!"


Until then I didn't really give a lotta though as to how undeniably crucial that mind-set actually IS for survival. . .and I've never forgotten it. Cool


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Feb 3, 2012, 1:21 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 4, 2012, 12:00 PM
Post #13 of 26 (2205 views)
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The Chain of Disaster~ [In reply to] Can't Post

* Just a little more 'basic' stuff that as Popsjumper said, younger jumpers may want to consider...food for thought if you will.
AngelicWink



Yesterday I received an interesting question from a Skydiver fairly new to the sport, who more or less was asking for a list of possible 'links' to look out for in the chain of disaster that was discussed up-thread.

First, stating the obvious ~ 'Risk Assessment' is a fundamental part of the sport.

I guess depending on how you want to define links in the chain, it could be said just leaving the airplane can put you on the road to 'disaster'.

But that's one of the risks we do an internal 'cost / benefit' analysis on and justify it.

...and in truth, there are likely all kinds of things that could be considered contributing factors in the retrospect of an accident investigation.

Again as stated earlier, some we know about & some we don't, some we can eliminate and some we can minimise.

The idea I'd like to stress is it's up to each of us to make ourselves as aware as possible of links we need to address by some knowledgeable analyzing, so we can make a safe, good sense risk assessment.

That's another of the reasons having the strong foundation of understanding comes into play...you really can't accurately assess the inherent risk of something you aren't completely knowledgeable of.

It's a constantly evolving thing and I doubt anyone has a handle on 100% of it.

You always continue to learn, and while you improve your skills you will lower some risk factors...but then again, adding complexity tends to increase 'other' types of risks.
And the cycle goes on through out your participation in the sport...or it SHOULD at least! Sly

Listen, observe, study, ask questions...do everything you can to allow yourself to be able to make logical risk assessments that will keep the odds in your favor.

Also keep in mind that having an honest, truthful & real grasp as to the extent of your skill & ability is critical in making a 'logical' assessment.
Shelf the ego and don't push things beyond 'your' current safe limits...it's just not worth it.

Links in the chain ~ remove all the ones you can, understand and lessen the likelihood of problems with the ones you can't.



So ANYWAY ~

I'll toss out a few basic 'links' that come to mind and maybe spark some 'chain' input others might wanna add & discuss. Most are just common sense. Cool

-the current camera controversy, knowing what has & can go wrong does it make sense to add that risk before really ready?

-currency, don't try to resume skill/risk wise, where you left off 6 months ago.

-being tired, dehydrated or unfocused.

-gear maintenance, things like pushing a frayed closing loop, dirty cables...

-flying a canopy way above your skill set & ability.

-high wind

-jello shots









Anybody else? ...Bueller...Bueller...Sly


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 4, 2012, 2:24 PM
Post #14 of 26 (2168 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] The Chain of Disaster~ [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So ANYWAY ~

I'll toss out a few basic 'links' that come to mind and maybe spark some 'chain' input others might wanna add & discuss. Most are just common sense. Cool

-the current camera controversy, knowing what has & can go wrong does it make sense to add that risk before really ready?

-currency, don't try to resume skill/risk wise, where you left off 6 months ago.

-being tired, dehydrated or unfocused.

-gear maintenance, things like pushing a frayed closing loop, dirty cables...

-flying a canopy way above your skill set & ability.

-high wind

-jello shots

Anybody else? ...Bueller...Bueller...Sly

My biggee:

-know your EPs like the back of your hand.
This is crunch time. You'll need to know what to do and how to do it. The Chain of Disaster often starts here. Know what you are doing and you can prevent it from getting out of hand.


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Feb 4, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #15 of 26 (2151 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
That would be a cool idea. Who out there is an iOS programmer? Being able to put malfunction photos on an iPad for showing would be very cool. And have some sort of feedback mechanism maybe.

I have some few small-format/sized pics. I don't recall where I got them so I can't credit the photographer or owner but I'll take a chance on getting bitch-slapped and post them....

Hope it helps some.

Is there a website/videos/descriptions of what to do exactly in each type of these malfunctions (especially the ones having both the main/reserve out).

I "kind of" understand what to do, but I don't know if I truly understand what do until I see it real life.

Cheers & thanks.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Feb 4, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #16 of 26 (2131 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] The Chain of Disaster~ [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll add:

-getting lazy/complacent about the basics, especially gear checks, every single jump without exception

-thinking you're too cool to keep up with the basics

-rushing/breaking routine when gearing up. I like to do things in a certain order, and I hate to rush. In situations where I'm forced to rush (like team training days where the packer closes me up last), the absolute mission critical stuff still gets done with 100% focus before I get on the plane - I will not get on without my rig on, properly secured and tightened, handles/pins/3 rings checked. I can do gloves and alti on the plane because I can exit without those in an emergency, but the important stuff WILL be done and done right, or I won't get on.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Feb 4, 2012, 5:55 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 4, 2012, 4:58 PM
Post #17 of 26 (2115 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] The Chain of Disaster~ [In reply to] Can't Post

 
-rushing/breaking routine



In reply to:

There's one that bears repeating, formulate a routine and ALWAYS stick to it.


dthames  (B 37674)

Feb 4, 2012, 4:59 PM
Post #18 of 26 (2113 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

The Skydiver Information Manual is a good source for many student questions (like two out, page 32). It is available online in PDF format.

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Dan


(This post was edited by dthames on Feb 4, 2012, 5:02 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 4, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #19 of 26 (2109 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there a website/videos/descriptions of what to do exactly in each type of these malfunctions (especially the ones having both the main/reserve out).

I "kind of" understand what to do, but I don't know if I truly understand what do until I see it real life.

Cheers & thanks.
You bet there is...Wink
http://www.uspa.org/...ads/Man_SIM_2012.pdf


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 4, 2012, 5:18 PM
Post #20 of 26 (2103 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is there a website/videos/descriptions of what to do exactly in each type of these malfunctions (especially the ones having both the main/reserve out).

I "kind of" understand what to do, but I don't know if I truly understand what do until I see it real life.

Cheers & thanks.

Let's hope you never DO see it in real life!

OK..you got a couple of references to the SIM.
It's a U.S. document and I'm sure Canada has something similar. Regardless, it has beaucoup info that you can use to keep your self safe. It's recommended even for our friends up North.
Wink

A word of caution about the SIM and you being in Canada.
Three things:

1. Sometimes, local training schools do not follow SIM recommendations as closely as others.
2. There is more than one way to skin a cat and even in the SIM you will see optional ways of handling some things.
3. Students and experience jumpers sometimes handle some things differently (remember the skinned cat?). Your instructors will let you know how they want you, as a student, to handle problems.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Feb 4, 2012, 5:23 PM)


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Feb 4, 2012, 11:17 PM
Post #21 of 26 (2058 views)
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Re: [dthames] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks ! Smile


dthames  (B 37674)

Feb 5, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #22 of 26 (2017 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a great deal of respect for the SIM. Someone said, “Pay attention to the SIM, as it was written with blood”. I have carefully studied section 4 and I think all of the suggested references in the section.

Recently while going over a category quiz with an instructor, the instructor pointed out that, “The SIM says this, but what I would do is this, and I will tell you why.” The instructor proceeded to explain his reasoning. I agreed 100% with what he said.

This thread is related to being properly informed and acting correctly at the proper time.

Being “informed” by both the SIM and the instructor, I have made my determination on what is the right action for that specific situation.

In a crisis I would have to do what I understood was the right thing. If you say, “Don’t do what you think is right, do what the SIM says”, I would have a problem with that (please read below carefully before you jump my case). In a crisis, I just can’t see doing something against my better (educated) judgment. Doing something as I am told because I am ignorant, YES, I can do that without any problem.

Any constructive thoughts in this area?


(This post was edited by dthames on Feb 5, 2012, 7:03 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 5, 2012, 9:20 AM
Post #23 of 26 (1966 views)
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Re: [dthames] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In a crisis I would have to do what I understood was the right thing. If you say, “Don’t do what you think is right, do what the SIM says”, I would have a problem with that (please read below carefully before you jump my case). In a crisis, I just can’t see doing something against my better (educated) judgment. Doing something as I am told because I am ignorant, YES, I can do that without any problem.

Any constructive thoughts in this area?

In reply to:

You bring up an excellent point.

First let me say that if your profile info is correct, good on you for making the effort and using the information available to you. BOTH in the SIM, as well as listening to your instructor! Cool


You said~

"Being “informed” by both the SIM and the instructor, I have made my determination on what is the right action for that specific situation."

~I'd like to make a suggestion however.

I don't know what it is exactly you're talking about, but in general terms what you describe is a difference of opnion.
You have two seperate opnions you are looking at and have come to the conclusion you agree more with one than the other.

What I personally would do is seek more input. ~

If you have a medical problem and get the advise of 2 doctors... if/when 'their' opinions directly conflict, that's a clue to seek MORE input, get OTHER people looking into it too!

You're 'now' taking a 50/50 chance of being right, your Instructors explanation is not without standing, but so neither is the SIM.

Discussion with a 3rd, 4th or even 55th source may bring to light things you, the SIM or your Instructor hadn't considered.

You have a situation where after giving it some thought you've decided that there are maybe 'two ways' of doing something, 'right now' one seems better...but that should spark the need to further explore WHY there's a difference and get other ideas as to which you will choose.

Ultimately I think you are correct in your belief that you need to make an informed decision. I would just get MORE information in a case like this before calling the decision you make truly 'informed'.

That said...this is the place to discuss things like that, what is it your Instructor disagrees with and why. He very well could be right and throwing some light on the topic may help all of us. Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 5, 2012, 7:43 PM
Post #24 of 26 (1880 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In a crisis I would have to do what I understood was the right thing. If you say, “Don’t do what you think is right, do what the SIM says”, I would have a problem with that (please read below carefully before you jump my case). In a crisis, I just can’t see doing something against my better (educated) judgment. Doing something as I am told because I am ignorant, YES, I can do that without any problem.

Any constructive thoughts in this area?

In reply to:

You bring up an excellent point.

First let me say that if your profile info is correct, good on you for making the effort and using the information available to you. BOTH in the SIM, as well as listening to your instructor! Cool


You said~

"Being “informed” by both the SIM and the instructor, I have made my determination on what is the right action for that specific situation."

~I'd like to make a suggestion however.

I don't know what it is exactly you're talking about, but in general terms what you describe is a difference of opinion.
You have two separate opinions you are looking at and have come to the conclusion you agree more with one than the other.

What I personally would do is seek more input. ~

If you have a medical problem and get the advise of 2 doctors... if/when 'their' opinions directly conflict, that's a clue to seek MORE input, get OTHER people looking into it too!

You're 'now' taking a 50/50 chance of being right, your Instructors explanation is not without standing, but so neither is the SIM.

Discussion with a 3rd, 4th or even 55th source may bring to light things you, the SIM or your Instructor hadn't considered.

You have a situation where after giving it some thought you've decided that there are maybe 'two ways' of doing something, 'right now' one seems better...but that should spark the need to further explore WHY there's a difference and get other ideas as to which you will choose.

Ultimately I think you are correct in your belief that you need to make an informed decision. I would just get MORE information in a case like this before calling the decision you make truly 'informed'.

That said...this is the place to discuss things like that, what is it your Instructor disagrees with and why. He very well could be right and throwing some light on the topic may help all of us. Wink








~ 'dthames' took the suggestion and started a thread to 'seek additional input'

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4269279#4269279

FWIW~ He clearly explains his reasoning for deferring to his Instructors recommendation, which differs from what the SIM outlines.

I see his point.


OglalaDiver  (C 40138)

Feb 8, 2012, 5:46 PM
Post #25 of 26 (1714 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] MUST READ! For new and low-time jumpers [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you all been sitting in when I'm training new police officers?? I've been preaching a lot of this same exact stuff to new officers and veteran officers who have become complacent for years. And as a new again (took a 20 year break) jumper, this is stuff that I think about and mentally Go over frequently. But not just with skydiving, but diving, racing, etc. We do all of this stuff (jumping, diving, etc) for fun, but you have GOT to think about all of this thoroughly. It's fun, yes. But you can, and people have, died from it. Just when you think it can't or won't happen, it will. When the merdes hits the oscillator, be ready to act NOW and Correctly.


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