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problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings?

 


5.samadhi

Jan 28, 2012, 5:46 PM
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problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? Can't Post

I have just got back into skydiving recently. I would love to become a coach once I get current again since I really have enjoyed talking to the beginning jumpers since I've been back (and used to like jumping with beginners also).

Well I noticed that a lot of my jumps are unsigned in my logbook and I remember not even writing some jumps in. I think it might have been cool? Crazy haha

Would there be any problem getting a coach rating with 200 jumps if about 40-60 of the logged jumps are unsigned??? What about more advanced ratings such as tandem or AFF??? Just curious as there really is nothing I can do at this point.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 28, 2012, 6:10 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would there be any problem getting a coach rating with 200 jumps if about 40-60 of the logged jumps are unsigned??? What about more advanced ratings such as tandem or AFF??? Just curious as there really is nothing I can do at this point.

It depends on the course director, but most I've spoken with want signed jumps. There are those who forge signatures and pad log books, I've seen them pop up at courses before. It is also painfully obvious that they weren't ready and lied about their experience. The last one I saw was at a tandem course and it looked like the guy actually had about 150 jumps. It was sad and scary, thankfully the course director sent the candidate packing and told the DZO that sponsored him to pound sand .


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jan 28, 2012, 7:26 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

For a coach rating you only need 100 jumps, so it sounds like you have at least that many signed jumps.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Jan 28, 2012, 7:32 PM
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Depending where and when you did them you may be able to get a printout of your jumps at that DZ and attach it to the logbook.
Of course if it was a small dz that had no computer system, disregard.


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Jan 29, 2012, 5:52 AM
Post #5 of 17 (2198 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

I showed up at one of my rating courses with a few unsigned jumps. It wasn't a problem. The unsigned jumps were spread out in my logbook, not all jambed in at the end, so it looked like a "normal" logbook.

I have also seen examiners take coach/instructor candidates through the course who did not have the required number of jumps... yet. If they were good enough to pass each part of the course, it got signed off. Once they had the required number of jumps, the paperwork was complete, and sent in. I think in each case, the examiner had a good knowledge of the candidate before letting them into the course.

Reading other posts, it seems that even a jumper who has properly faked a logbook and has a DZO endorsement can be sent packing if his skills are not good enough.

You can always hang out at the DZ with a 12-pack and offer free refreshments in exchange for 5 signatures. Seriously, though, you can ask other local jumpers to help fill in your blanks.

Have jun and do good things with that coach rating.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 29, 2012, 7:12 AM
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have just got back into skydiving recently. I would love to become a coach once I get current again since I really have enjoyed talking to the beginning jumpers since I've been back (and used to like jumping with beginners also).

Well I noticed that a lot of my jumps are unsigned in my logbook and I remember not even writing some jumps in. I think it might have been cool? Crazy haha

Would there be any problem getting a coach rating with 200 jumps if about 40-60 of the logged jumps are unsigned??? What about more advanced ratings such as tandem or AFF??? Just curious as there really is nothing I can do at this point.
Where did you used to jump and how long ago? If you talk to an S&TA or Instructor where you used to jump and explain the situation, they should be able to verify your jumps.
What kind of jumps did you do? If 90% of your jumps were freefly, you may not have the belly flying skills necessary.
How much jumping have you done since you got back? Again, flying skills.
Al that being said, I find teaching skills and judgement are a much bigger factor for me in evaluating whether I am comfortable signing off on a coach rating. Obviously, you need some belly flying skills, but a coach isn't expected to be able to do AFF. You need to be able to fall stable (that means straight down, no slip) and have a decent range of fall rates and decent mobility (notice I said decent, not great) without having to think about what YOU are doing so you can pay attention to what you student is doing. That's about it.
On the other side (and much more important to me, at least) you need to demonstrate that you can teach effectively (use good teaching technique, proper repetitions, positive reinforcement), that you will teach proper technique (meaning how things are presented in the ISP, not a bunch of old school crap), have the ability to remember enough (not everything) after the jump to do a positive and effective debrief and the judgement to fairly evaluate student performance.
Good luck. The best coaches and instructors are the ones that do it for enjoyment, not for the $$$$.


david3  (D 21297)

Jan 29, 2012, 7:43 AM
Post #7 of 17 (2155 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep jumping. Get all future jumps signed. Eventually you will have the required number of signed jumps and the additional unsigned ones are icing on the cake. No problem.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 29, 2012, 11:31 AM
Post #8 of 17 (2124 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never had my logbooks inspected during a ratings course. This is likely caused by the fact that I've been around in skydiving for many years, and often have known the course directors for many years before I took the course.

_Am


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 29, 2012, 12:05 PM
Post #9 of 17 (2115 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have just got back into skydiving recently. I would love to become a coach once I get current again since I really have enjoyed talking to the beginning jumpers since I've been back (and used to like jumping with beginners also).

Well I noticed that a lot of my jumps are unsigned in my logbook and I remember not even writing some jumps in. I think it might have been cool? Crazy haha

Would there be any problem getting a coach rating with 200 jumps if about 40-60 of the logged jumps are unsigned??? What about more advanced ratings such as tandem or AFF??? Just curious as there really is nothing I can do at this point.

Signatures are not required for jumps not being applied to specified needs.

If you are doing an accuracy jump for a license (or RW etc), you need a signature to verify. But if you're jumping in a 4 way and it is a zoo, the jump counts for the number and needs no signature.

Matt


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 29, 2012, 12:40 PM
Post #10 of 17 (2107 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you are doing an accuracy jump for a license (or RW etc), you need a signature to verify. But if you're jumping in a 4 way and it is a zoo, the jump counts for the number and needs no signature.

I ran into a problem with that trying to get awards/wings...must be signed to count for anything for the USPA.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 30, 2012, 7:38 AM
Post #11 of 17 (2008 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

# 1000 (etc) for those wings sure. But the Local S&TA should be able to acknowledge your accomplishments and sign where appropriate, it is part of their duties and they agreed to it.

Matt


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 30, 2012, 2:56 PM
Post #12 of 17 (1962 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
# 1000 (etc) for those wings sure. But the Local S&TA should be able to acknowledge your accomplishments and sign where appropriate, it is part of their duties and they agreed to it.

Matt

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the requirements vary greatly from dropzone to dropzone. For instance, for me to get the first two wings, I had to get dispatch to print out a jump log showing I had made over 2,000 jumps at that DZ alone. The S&TA would take no less since I had been very lax about getting jumps signed.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 30, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #13 of 17 (1924 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm, I understand upholding a "standard", but at least uphold an "actual" standard.

Matt


5.samadhi

Jan 30, 2012, 7:36 PM
Post #14 of 17 (1868 views)
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Re: [ufk22] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks a lot for the responses. This will be a moot point I think for my coach rating since as somebody pointed out it is 100 jumps (I thought it was more than that?). I dont think I will be ready to take a coach course til 200 jumps anyways...that will give me some time to do some more jumps and also time to save up for money for some tunnel time which I am guessing will really accelerate my learning (never been in one!).
Quote:
What kind of jumps did you do? If 90% of your jumps were freefly, you may not have the belly flying skills necessary.
How much jumping have you done since you got back? Again, flying skills.
mostly freeflying and hop and pops! My belly skills are alright though I guess for a beginner...I've never turned points really I think the most points I've got in a 2 way is maybe 4 or 5 docks/side-docks. I actually am going to focus on flying on my belly in 2 ways now.

Well I have a lot of fun flying with beginners, as well I am basically back to a beginner myself with my layoff. So I am flying with other beginners and if I can have some wisdom from my knowledge from my previous 150 jumps years ago...well then that will help me and my buddy stay safe. I wouldnt consider myself anywhere near instructor status though...I do feel confident I can plan out a dive and stick with the plan and stay safe myself and remember a few things to help my friend (thats what skydiving is all about right!). I have a few years teaching college students so that doesnt hurt the one-to-one teaching conversation skills.

The coach rating is basically just to extend the circle of friends I can jump with...and because I really catch a great buzz jumping with people starting out. Its a rush to be there with them on their early jumps.

I don't intend on making any money on jumping with people that are beginning. Good friendship is what I seek :)

Thanks again for the experienced advice.


jonathan.newman  (D 30644)

Feb 3, 2012, 7:11 AM
Post #15 of 17 (1742 views)
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Re: [5.samadhi] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Samadhi,
I became a coach for reasons similar to yours. I liked jumping with (and teaching) low timers, and being a coach would expand the people I could jump with.

Take a look at the coach proficiency card and you'll see that the coach course is more about being able to teach the exits and skills that you will teach in Category F, G, H jumps. (It goes without saying that you should be able to perform those skills, yourself. Chances are you learned these as a student.)

The in-air flying skills that you need are awareness (so you can provide good feedback), fall rate, stability, backward movement, and turn-and-track.

Don't sell yourself short. Make a practice jump with a coach or instructor, or even another jumper. If you can perform a Cat H skydive with good control, then you probably have the flying skills you need.

Again, good luck getting your rating.


DontPanic  (D 30449)

Feb 6, 2012, 2:04 PM
Post #16 of 17 (1675 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Signatures are not required for jumps not being applied to specified needs.

If you are doing an accuracy jump for a license (or RW etc), you need a signature to verify. But if you're jumping in a 4 way and it is a zoo, the jump counts for the number and needs no signature.
Last time I tried to figure out the requirements, I understood the SIM to basically require signatures on all jumps until you get your D-license (since the number of jumps is one of the license requirements).

After that, the SIM only requires signatures on jumps towards ratings.

Have I understood the SIM wrong?

I have seen the actual practice of signing logbooks vary widely.

For reference:
http://www.uspa.org/...165/Default.aspx#31c


FlyingRadio  (D License)

Mar 22, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #17 of 17 (1465 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] problem with unsigned jumps in logbook when going for ratings? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I ran into a problem with that trying to get awards/wings...must be signed to count for anything for the USPA.

SIM section 8-2 C. 2. b. 7 lists signatures on the log entries as "encouraged but not required" and leaves verification up to the RD or ND.



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