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USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal

 

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Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 26, 2012, 8:36 AM
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USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal Can't Post

Which one of you guys is behind the wingsuit coach rating proposal to be presented at the USPA Board of Directors' meeting on February 17 - 19?

See here: http://www.uspa.org/...genda_ST_2012_02.pdf

Care to share the proposal with the rest of us?

Edited because I didn't use an apostrophe correctly.


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jan 26, 2012, 8:37 AM)


Butters  (C 37840)

Jan 26, 2012, 8:54 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Which one of you guys is behind the wingsuit coach rating proposal to be presented at the USPA Board of Directors' meeting on February 17 - 19?

I want to know who is behind:

Quote:
3. SIM Section 2-1 G. Minimum Deployment Altitudes: A request has been made to raise
the C and D license minimum deployment altitude from 2,000 feet AGL to 2,500 feet
AGL.

I've got a couple guess who is behind:

Quote:
7. Wingsuit Coach Rating: A proposal for USPA to add a wingsuit coach rating will be
presented.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:13 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not playing dumb, I legit don't know.

A couple of years ago, I was part of a working group of experienced wingsuiters (I didn't - still don't - consider myself "experienced", but I was the group's "scribe"). That group proposed a wingsuit rating, and the proposal was severely crapped on by the community. The mistake we made was that we didn't really present the proposal to the community as a whole for input and consideration. As a result, the working group was viewed as a sort of "secret cabal" of folks trying to get a leg up on others, which really wasn't the intent. Nevertheless, we tried to push something through, figuring "well, the BoD wants something like this, we talked them into it", never considering that the people who are going to be affected by it are the wingsuiters.

So, my recommendation to whoever is behind this is don't repeat the mistakes our group made in the past - be open and communicate the proposal to the wingsuit community (and yeah, sadly, this forum is probably the best means available). Get feedback and input and listen to it. Don't create a "submarine" proposal that catches those of us who don't read the USPA's agenda with breathless anticipation each month - I found out about it only because a friend posted about a proposed change relating to cameras.

Whoever you are, don't be arrogant - there are a lot of people out there training folks, and they might not all march to the same drum, but many of them are very good (even if some aren't). Don't appoint a "committee of wizards" who are going to lead us out of our ignorance without talking to us about it. The result shouldn't be we end up with a few Kings and Queens of wingsuiting - unless that's what we, the wingsuit community, really think is best for us. Let's all get stuff out in the open.

I applaud the idea of better, safer training; I absolutely loathe the methodology of having the USPA tell us how things are going to be without actually talking to the wingsuit community as a whole.


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jan 26, 2012, 9:18 AM)


Migs  (D 31835)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:28 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it would be a step in the right direction in unifying the wingsuit community. We don't get enough credit for the amount of talent in the community and as a new USPA Couch myself (Looking to become a Wingsuit Instructor) It would certainly help the Wingsuit community be recognized as a formal disipline here in the US and not just a bunch of skydivers in skirts. I am all for it!Wink


skydiverkeith

Jan 26, 2012, 9:32 AM
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Re: [Migs] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

Who the hell doesn't recognize wingsuiting as a formal discipline? Where the !@#$ are you jumping?!


(This post was edited by skydiverkeith on Jan 26, 2012, 9:32 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:32 AM
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Re: [Migs] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be a comfort to see a real rating instead of those prancing around pretending to be a "WSI" with ZERO requirements.

Some folks would have had these ratings yanked had they existed in the past. Angelic


Migs  (D 31835)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:37 AM
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Re: [skydiverkeith] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Who the hell doesn't recognize wingsuiting as a formal discipline? Where the !@#$ are you jumping?!

That's the overall view of the Europeans of us here in the US. We don't have our s#!t together as a wingsuit community. I just happen to think they finally got something right! LOL


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:38 AM
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Re: [Migs] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am all for it!

But what is the "it" that you are for?

Saying "there ought to be a coach rating!" is all fine and dandy, but what are the specifics of the proposal? Does one have to be a coach to give first flight courses? What about providing help to people who have already got their first flight done? Who decides who gets a rating? What are the qualifications? Too many questions, none of which have been answered. Are you the guy who proposed it, Migs? Do you know who is?

Even the best plan sucks if it's clouded in bullshit secrecy. Period.



Edited to strike "what about people who already got their rating" to replace it with "what about people who already got their first flight done".


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jan 26, 2012, 9:50 AM)


skydave114  (D License)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:49 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

The DZ used to be the one place I could escape the "nanney state, big brother, we know what's best for you" attitude that has crept its way into every aspect of life.

The times, they are a-changin'
Unsure


Migs  (D 31835)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:51 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I am all for it!

But what is the "it" that you are for?

Saying "there ought to be a coach rating!" is all fine and dandy, but what are the specifics of the proposal? Does one have to be a coach to give first flight courses? What about providing help to people who have already got their rating? Who decides who gets a rating? What are the qualifications? Too many questions, none of which have been answered. Are you the guy who proposed it, Migs? Do you know who is?

Even the best plan sucks if it's clouded in bullshit secrecy. Period.

No, it was certainly not me. I don't have enough wingsuit jumps or the experience to be part of such a decision making body. I am all for making a formal Rating aimed specifically towards Wingsuiters. Haven't done a belly jump myself in well over 2 years, and just recently having to take the coach rating was certainly a challenging experience for me. I think it would be much easier to teach and learn a Wingsuit Coach rating rather than the USPA Coach Rating.

There are plenty of questions to be asked and it would be nice to find out who the originator of that motion would be to pick their brain and possibly have a consensus as to what the Rating should include for the sake of the wingsuit community as a whole. We dont have the best reputation as it is, it would be nice to have something formal in the books with the input of the community as a whole.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 26, 2012, 9:55 AM
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Re: [skydave114] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm actually OK with Big Brother, if we all decide that we want a Big Brother. I'm not OK with moving forward without open dialogue - I learned from my mistakes.

But unless we find out more about the proposal, I'd have to say to the S&T committee that the proposal has NOT been presented to the wingsuit community, that we (as a group) can't form an opinion on what we haven't seen, and therefore it should be tabled until we find out what the Hell it is. I'd encourage them to talk to wingsuiters at the dropzones that they represent and get feedback before taking action on any proposal.


Migs  (D 31835)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:05 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

My suggestion would be to call the Regional Directory where the meeting is taking place and find out who is behind it if possible. Or call one of the National Directors?

Scott Smith
USPA Member # 12677, D-6627
Western (WE) Regional Director
scott@adrenalinenation.com


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Re: [Migs] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not particularly concerned with who is behind it (other than, I could then ask him or her to present it to DZ.com for input). For me, it's about transparency, not the person.

I'm writing an open letter to the S&T committee on the subject, basically stating that until we have more dialogue about it, it should be tabled.


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jan 26, 2012, 10:14 AM)


voilsb  (D 30581)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:13 AM
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Re: USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

Important question for those pushing for a USPA Wingsuit Coach rating: Why does WS need a special rating but freefly, swooping, CRW, camera, freestyle, and classic accuracy do not?


skydave114  (D License)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm actually OK with Big Brother, if we all decide that we want a Big Brother.


I'd rather make my own choices.

I'm also in favor of reasonable regulations.
We already have that.

Seems like someone trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. (see prior post)


Migs  (D 31835)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not particularly concerned with who is behind it (other than, I could then ask him or her to present it to DZ.com for input). For me, it's about transparency, not the person.

I'm writing an open letter to the S&T committee on the subject, basically stating that until we have more dialogue about it, it should be tabled.

I wouldn't care who the person is either... I just care that its for the benefit of the wingsuiters and that is done with safety in mind.


Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:23 AM
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Re: [skydave114] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I'm actually OK with Big Brother, if we all decide that we want a Big Brother.


I'd rather make my own choices.

I'm also in favor of reasonable regulations.
We already have that.

Seems like someone trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. (see prior post)

And that's precisely the dialogue we should be having. We can agree, we can disagree, whatever... But we can't do either if things aren't transparent.


lurch  (D 27583)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:25 AM
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Re: [Skwrl] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't need to guess, and I don't need to ask. Given whos been working on what in our community I think I know.

I've examined the work behind this in person if its the same effort I saw, going public. It is far, far more thorough and professional than anything else I've seen including my own wingsuit instruction work... by a long shot. I'll have to seriously improve my own game to meet this standard.

And I agree, this needs to be very thoroughly discussed, in the open, by the community. I think it will be.
-B


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Re: [voilsb] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

How about so no more students die at the hands of an "instructor" with ZERO ratings of any sort???

Don't forget the added emphasis on canopy skills.
Any and every thing we do as a community to make this sport safer IS a good thing.

Whether one likes it or not.

<flame on>Wink


Migs  (D 31835)

Jan 26, 2012, 10:52 AM
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Re: [normiss] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about so no more students die at the hands of an "instructor" with ZERO ratings of any sort???

Don't forget the added emphasis on canopy skills.
Any and every thing we do as a community to make this sport safer IS a good thing.

Whether one likes it or not.

<flame on>Wink

Agreed


The111  (D 29246)

Jan 26, 2012, 11:02 AM
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Re: [voilsb] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Important question for those pushing for a USPA Wingsuit Coach rating: Why does WS need a special rating but freefly, swooping, CRW, camera, freestyle, and classic accuracy do not?

With the exception of camera flying (to an extent), none of those other examples require gear which is so specialized and non-trivial that it can kill you if used (or even just rigged) incorrectly. True story: I once caught a very well-known jumper on an airplane with his wing cable routed through his reserve D handle.

I think a similar case could be made for camera flying, though maybe not quite as strong.


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Jan 26, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Re: [lurch] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't need to guess, and I don't need to ask. Given whos been working on what in our community I think I know.

-B

It would be nice to KNOW. The other document about Competition did a great job of listing not only who but what they were presenting. Would be nice if the Safety Agenda was similar.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 26, 2012, 11:34 AM
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Re: [lurch] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't need to guess, and I don't need to ask. Given whos been working on what in our community I think I know.

I've examined the work behind this in person if its the same effort I saw, going public. It is far, far more thorough and professional than anything else I've seen including my own wingsuit instruction work... by a long shot. I'll have to seriously improve my own game to meet this standard.

And I agree, this needs to be very thoroughly discussed, in the open, by the community. I think it will be.
-B

Thanks for the good words, Brian. Any instructional program should be challenging, rating or not. It should never be about ego, but rather teaching and flying skills, and understanding what people need to know in order to provide training in the most safe and informative manner possible, with as many resources as possible.

T'is I and a couple of others working towards achieving a Wingsuit Coach/Instructor's rating. It's a long, long shot, and likely impossible (this is the third year it will have been presented).

It is a means of consolidating the training methods found in the SIM (which had a group of 14 contributing authors). It's also a means of encouraging those who teach wingsuiting to take responsibility for their training information and methods.

Nothing has changed in the proposal from the first one three years ago, except this time we won't have reps from multiple wingsuit manufacturers begging USPA for a rating program. A number of DZO's have been polled, and that's about the only additional information that is being offered.
I don't expect this one to be any more successful than the previous attempts, yet it does have a great deal more support than ever before. That's very encouraging.


voilsb  (D 30581)

Jan 26, 2012, 4:09 PM
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Re: [The111] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With the exception of camera flying (to an extent), none of those other examples require gear which is so specialized and non-trivial that it can kill you if used (or even just rigged) incorrectly. True story: I once caught a very well-known jumper on an airplane with his wing cable routed through his reserve D handle.

I think a similar case could be made for camera flying, though maybe not quite as strong.
I would think freefly tubes, space balls, premature deployments, cross-braced canopies, the ease of CRW wraps, and all the custom rigging done to accuracy canopies easily puts those all in the same category. Plus, more people die or injure themselves during speed-induced canopy turns than wingsuit freefalls. And there's already a 200-jump requirement for wingsuiting, but not for any of those other similarly dangerous activities. Even cameras only (currently) have a 200 jump recommendation.

I don't disagree that a centralized coaching requirement could reduce the number of wingsuit incidents, but I do think the board should focus on more pressing issues first, like possibly creating a canopy coach rating (to better teach the new mandatory canopy course, and for continuing education of more experienced jumpers) and a camera BSR before worrying about this. And I'm not sure I would personally want them to do that, but as a community it's a higher priority.


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Jan 26, 2012, 5:41 PM
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Re: [voilsb] USPA Wingsuit Coach Rating Proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

I would prefer not comparing it to anything canopy related. You are required to show basic canopy skills before earning a license. All canopies are controlled via the same types of inputs. Toggles, Risers, Harness. When you go from a student canopy to a sport rig, toggles are not in a different place all of a sudden. In regard to wingsuit instruction, you learn the basics of wingsuit gear, the effect the gear has on jump preparation and execution, and techniques used in flight for navigation, control, etc. This does not say once you have received the training, you need to go back and get more when you decide to get a larger suit, or start learning acrobatics and backflying. Nor would it require you to pursue more instruction if you wanted to do some "XRW".

In any case, ultimately it comes down where you decide to jump and what they decide to enforce. Hell bent on jumping a wingsuit with no "in person" instruction and just some stuff you read on line, I am sure there are DZ's out there that would have the policy of don't ask don't tell.


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