Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps?

 

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Poll: 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 jumps?
Yes 31 / 18%
No 143 / 82%
174 total votes
 
Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Jan 25, 2012, 9:38 AM
Post #1 of 32 (2614 views)
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1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? Can't Post

Please vote and comment on the jumper who:
- has 230 total jumps in 3 years
- made last 150 jumps in last 12 months, on a 190 square ft 9-cell canopy
- has an exit weight of 242 lbs (110 kg)
- attended a basic canopy course
- wants to buy Sabre2 150 or Safire2 149 (wing loading of 1.61)

Please vote and comment on this idea.


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Jan 25, 2012, 12:20 PM)


piisfish

Jan 25, 2012, 10:46 AM
Post #2 of 32 (2527 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

It CAN work, but definitely not a good idea. If he remains unhurt, he will think he is skilled. Which is possible. But he might also be just lucky


jrjny  (A License)

Jan 25, 2012, 11:14 AM
Post #3 of 32 (2501 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Would he be ok landing on the runway? That's my judgement tool.


faulk04  (D 32457)

Jan 25, 2012, 11:19 AM
Post #4 of 32 (2488 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

doesn't seem smart...how has his landings been in all conditions? Why not just go to a 170?


wildcard451  (D License)

Jan 25, 2012, 12:07 PM
Post #5 of 32 (2433 views)
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Re: [faulk04] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bad idea, but SoPFiDaRF needs more videos, so I say go for it. Hell, buy him a 135.


DaVinciflies

Jan 25, 2012, 1:36 PM
Post #6 of 32 (2326 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Might be OK, but it depends on several things, including luck. Is the question "will they survive?" or "would you recommend it?".

Do you know how this person would explain why they want to skip a canopy size and go so far outside the recommendations?

I'd be interested to hear the reason given by the jumper (not other people's guesses as to why, especially if they contain the words "mad" and "skills" spelled with a "z") Mad.

Re: landing on a runway as a reference point as to whether they are ready; that might be a good measure if it was width-ways, and downwind.


Divinfool  (C 40922)

Jan 25, 2012, 1:38 PM
Post #7 of 32 (2324 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still a noob, but going from a 190 to a 150 with a wing loading of 1.61 seems like setting yourself up for an accident (from what I have learned).... wouldn't a 170 be the next step? If you recently did a canopy course....what was the instructor's recommendation on downsizing?
I guess I still don't understand why skydivers have the need to constantly downsize. Unimpressed


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 25, 2012, 1:45 PM
Post #8 of 32 (2311 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

My experience downsizing from a Sabre2 170 to a Sabre2 150 (and previously from a Hornet 210 to a Hornet 190) was that there was a HUGE difference between the 170 and the 150. I noticed small changes going from 210 to 190 and 190 to 170. The switch from 170 to 150 was entirely different.

The 150 did not behave the same at all. It was very sensitive to input compared to the 170.

PD lists the max exit weight for the Sabre2 150 as 240 pounds and the max exit weight for an expert canopy pilot as 195.

I think it's a terrible idea for someone with 230ish jumps regardless of skill level.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Jan 25, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #9 of 32 (2300 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh come on, this is the new age, do they still even make +200 sqft canopies? (Note: sarcasm)

Honestly, I think this is a question for his instructors that see how competent he is. A good portion of his jumps were in the last year (this is good), Has his canopy progression been done at faster pace? Has he taken a canopy course? Is he capable of landing this canopy safely? To be honest, while it is definately agressive, if he has the adequate aptitude, I don't think it's "obscene". He's definitely increasing the likelihood of having an accident or killing himself, but if I was asked to say how likely that is, I'd lean towards the fact that he will not have any major issues, so long as he isn't just trying to go as small as possible, and has no skill to back that, AND isn't pushing he limits (ie: aggressively trying to swoop)


I'm gonna get roasted for this, but I was on a Katana 97 with less than 300 jumps, and I am loading it at 1.5 roughly. Granted it was the high 200's versus the low 200's, not that it really matters from a safety standpoint. Looking back, I can't say I'm proud of this, but that's how my progression played out. I'm a big boy, and don't regret the decisions I made. I will also say that out of my first 200 jumps, I would guess that HALF of them were high altitude H+P's to play with the canopy. Not many people do that nowadays...I personally think it's a blast. Just this past summer, I got a group together to do a high altitude H+P, and 2 guys asked me where we wanted to open and suggested 6000ft. I laughed and asked if they wanted to static line me out the door at 12.5? When I say high altitude H+P...I mean it. Such a great way to play with your canopy and truly LEARN what happens in different scenarios. I'm not trying to justify my choices, but I think the person under the wing has a HUGE influence on the results of a downsize such as the person in question.


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Jan 25, 2012, 2:02 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Jan 25, 2012, 1:57 PM
Post #10 of 32 (2291 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Reducing one's canopy size by ~24% (particularly with low jump numbers) seems silly to me...but what do I know...


DaVinciflies

Jan 25, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #11 of 32 (2253 views)
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Re: [labrys] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My experience downsizing from a Sabre2 170 to a Sabre2 150 (and previously from a Hornet 210 to a Hornet 190) was that there was a HUGE difference between the 170 and the 150. I noticed small changes going from 210 to 190 and 190 to 170. The switch from 170 to 150 was entirely different.

The 150 did not behave the same at all. It was very sensitive to input compared to the 170.

I had exactly the same experience.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jan 25, 2012, 2:58 PM
Post #12 of 32 (2244 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

SIM says 150 sq ft is a high performance canopy. 230 jumps is not high performance canopy experience.


Its more than just the fabric. Lines get shorter, performance goes up. Bad idea.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 25, 2012, 3:16 PM
Post #13 of 32 (2232 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Germain recommends an absolute minimum for his experience of 189 sq ft - larger if he is jumping at a non sea level DZ.

Given that, I think 170 sq ft is already beyond the envelope.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Jan 25, 2012, 3:21 PM
Post #14 of 32 (2224 views)
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Re: [billvon] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed Bill V. Sad thing is he's going to want advice on a camera helmut and accys next.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 25, 2012, 3:41 PM
Post #15 of 32 (2198 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I had exactly the same experience.

I neglected to include that my WL on the 150 was about 1.3 at 500 jumps. I'm conservative in general but that canopy never felt like I could put it down in a tight spot unless I put lots and lots of jumps on it. I wasn't comfortable putting lots and lots of jumps on it because I couldn't put it down in a tight spot. I got rid of it and went back to my 170.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 25, 2012, 4:03 PM
Post #16 of 32 (2177 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please vote and comment on the jumper who:
- has 230 total jumps in 3 years
- made last 150 jumps in last 12 months, on a 190 square ft 9-cell canopy
- has an exit weight of 242 lbs (110 kg)
- attended a basic canopy course
- wants to buy Sabre2 150 or Safire2 149 (wing loading of 1.61)

Please vote and comment on this idea.

I'd bet on the jumper in question making a visit to the orthopedic surgeon and hope that a neurosurgeon isn't required too.

They'll probably be lucky enough not to kill themselves although that's a possibility.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 25, 2012, 4:30 PM
Post #17 of 32 (2158 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh come on, this is the new age, do they still even make +200 sqft canopies? (Note: sarcasm)

Honestly, I think this is a question for his instructors that see how competent he is.

I don't.

An instructor rating doesn't imply much. I knew four instructors who lacked the judgement necessary to avoid killing themselves under canopy. Fortunately only one killed some one else on his final jump. I know one nice grandma type with thousands of skydives and AFF rating that didn't realize how much she didn't know until after her ambulance ride.

Assuming we're talking about Brian Germain, Scott Miller, or one of a few other people (xx,xxx skydives, makes a living teaching canopy flight, etc.) he'd need to see the jumper in question handling malfunctions successfully, landing out, making turns from 50' up, landing cross-wind and down-wind, doing post-planeout carving turns around obstacles, etc. That's unlikely.

If that were the case it might be enough to approve a single down-size but not skipping one because perceptually the differences between sizes are personal and non-linear.

Instructor's opinions are only relevant when they're telling some one to be more conservative than accepted practices because the target of their advice has physical (can't run, lacks depth perception) or skill issues (has a penchant for landing on the hanger roof).

In reply to:
He's definitely increasing the likelihood of having an accident or killing himself,

plus becoming an unguided meat-missile who runs into someone else in the landing area because he has accuracy issues and is too scared to turn after starting to flare.

In reply to:
I'm gonna get roasted for this, but I was on a Katana 97 with less than 300 jumps, and I am loading it at 1.5 roughly. Granted it was the high 200's versus the low 200's, not that it really matters from a safety standpoint. Looking back, I can't say I'm proud of this, but that's how my progression played out.

I'm glad you were lucky unless you've yet to learn judgement and end up doing so under a smaller canopy where the lesson is more severe than it would have been earlier in your progression.

That said even if you're willing to cover another jumper's medical expenses and lost wages you're not going to be the one suffering and your one sample point is insufficient basis to suggest other jumpers be less conservative.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jan 25, 2012, 5:57 PM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jan 25, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #18 of 32 (2114 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have him ask Sangi.

Sangi was under a 129, but only loading it at 1.3. That didn't work out so well.


holie  (A License)

Jan 26, 2012, 6:37 AM
Post #19 of 32 (1957 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends!
Don't ask us - ask a local canopy coach how knows his work and more important who knows him well.

I did it ;-) with a well care taking canopy coach ;-)


Miljumper140

Jan 27, 2012, 7:05 PM
Post #20 of 32 (1660 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

You have to do with what you feel and ask someone that knows what they are doing if you can make the jump. I was jumping my sabre 150 WL @ 1.3 at jump 26. I was doing front riser, rear riser, flat turns, crosswind all to a spot...I believe being a pilot gave me positive correlation to canopy flight.


DaVinciflies

Jan 27, 2012, 10:26 PM
Post #21 of 32 (1604 views)
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Re: [Miljumper140] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have to do with what you feel and ask someone that knows what they are doing if you can make the jump. I was jumping my sabre 150 WL @ 1.3 at jump 26. I was doing front riser, rear riser, flat turns, crosswind all to a spot...I believe being a pilot gave me positive correlation to canopy flight.

Standby.

Incoming.


piisfish

Jan 28, 2012, 2:32 AM
Post #22 of 32 (1557 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please vote and comment on the jumper who:
- has 230 total jumps in 3 years
- made last 150 jumps in last 12 months, on a 190 square ft 9-cell canopy
- has an exit weight of 242 lbs (110 kg)
- attended a basic canopy course
- wants to buy Sabre2 150 or Safire2 149 (wing loading of 1.61)

Please vote and comment on this idea.
still "less bad" than hitting 270's on a 1.4 loaded Xaos at 61 jumps Unsure


Decodiver  (D License)

Jan 28, 2012, 4:33 AM
Post #23 of 32 (1528 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please vote and comment on the jumper who:
- has 230 total jumps in 3 years
- made last 150 jumps in last 12 months, on a 190 square ft 9-cell canopy
- has an exit weight of 242 lbs (110 kg)
- attended a basic canopy course
- wants to buy Sabre2 150 or Safire2 149 (wing loading of 1.61)

Please vote and comment on this idea.

It's a dumb idea for all the reasons listed above.

This guy is a potentially lethal meat-bomb that may just be fortunate to take only himself out, or maybe take some others with him too. It's a shit idea!


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 28, 2012, 7:03 AM
Post #24 of 32 (1486 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Their 1st post on the day they register a new uid is one regarding aggressive downsizing and all the sweet, sweet skills they have accumulated in 26 jumps. Oh ... and they fly a camera.

Troll.


(This post was edited by craigbey on Jan 28, 2012, 7:04 AM)


BlueSkiesJT

Jan 28, 2012, 11:45 AM
Post #25 of 32 (1428 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] 1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like my roommate. His total jump numbers and time in sport are inflated and he never took a canopy course. No worries though...he has mad skillz. Crazy


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