Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
cutting corners

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

janz

Jan 22, 2012, 3:58 PM
Post #1 of 48 (3538 views)
Shortcut
cutting corners Can't Post

What do you do when you go to a dropzone and feel too many corners are being cut? Sure I have looked away a few times and jumped anyway but if 3 or 4 things stick out and don't seem right do you say later dudes? Or do you say oh well I'll take the chance and jump anyway because it's all a risk. Thoughts anyone?


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:01 PM
Post #2 of 48 (3480 views)
Shortcut
Re: [janz] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Example.


oldwomanc6

Jan 22, 2012, 4:07 PM
Post #3 of 48 (3474 views)
Shortcut
Re: [janz] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, that's a loaded question.

What's your experience level? What corners do perceive being cut? Have you talked to anyone to resolve a concern?

These are only a few questions. Others will add more.

Ultimately, if you don't feel things are being run on the up and up, don't put yourself (and others) in danger--don't jump.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:26 PM
Post #4 of 48 (3444 views)
Shortcut
Re: [janz] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

"What do you do when you go to a dropzone and feel too many corners are being cut?"

Leave...


IrishDave  (C 713)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:40 PM
Post #5 of 48 (3355 views)
Shortcut
Re: [janz] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

I was recently at a boogie in South America.

Cutting corners was a mild way to put what I saw.
I left after my 4th jump. (10 day boogie).

I mentioned what I had issues with to the boogie organizer who dismissed my concerns. "In {country name} we don't care about trivial things like that" was the response.

I'm only new to the sport (240 jumps) and they were sure to let me know that. I don't believe that a safety concern is less valid if it comes from someone with 10 jumps or 10,000 jumps.

Also, I have no problem with anyone smoking weed but seeing the packers openly smoking weed between loads bothered me.


(This post was edited by IrishDave on Jan 22, 2012, 5:42 PM)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jan 22, 2012, 7:09 PM
Post #6 of 48 (3292 views)
Shortcut
Re: [janz] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you do when you go to a dropzone and feel too many corners are being cut? Sure I have looked away a few times and jumped anyway but if 3 or 4 things stick out and don't seem right do you say later dudes? Or do you say oh well I'll take the chance and jump anyway because it's all a risk. Thoughts anyone?

It all depends on what you mean by "corners."

For the most part, I'd say walk.

It is all a risk. Because of the risks that are already there, I prefer not to add to them, especially with stupid and unnecessary "corner cutting."

Others may have different opinions, and as they say YMMV.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:04 AM
Post #7 of 48 (3087 views)
Shortcut
Re: [IrishDave] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm only new to the sport (240 jumps) and they were sure to let me know that. I don't believe that a safety concern is less valid if it comes from someone with 10 jumps or 10,000 jumps.

Absolutely!
It doesn't matter how many jumps you have or how much time-in-sport, if you see something you think is out of whack, speak up!

A decent person would address the issue or explain to you how or why you were off base.

It sounds like the organizer in your example provided an explanation as to why they were doing what they were doing.

And yes, other countries have different rules. So, by their rules, he may have been entirely correct.

BUT! Regardless of the rules, if you are not comfortable with what you see, speak up! You always have the choice of continued participation or stepping down.

You made the best decision for yourself and that's a good...no GREAT thing. FWIW, my hat is off to you, sir.


Now...go get your bottlers to produce more Irish Whiskey.
Smile


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:44 AM
Post #8 of 48 (3067 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'm only new to the sport (240 jumps) and they were sure to let me know that. I don't believe that a safety concern is less valid if it comes from someone with 10 jumps or 10,000 jumps.

Absolutely!
It doesn't matter how many jumps you have or how much time-in-sport, if you see something you think is out of whack, speak up!

A decent person would address the issue or explain to you how or why you were off base.

It sounds like the organizer in your example provided an explanation as to why they were doing what they were doing.

And yes, other countries have different rules. So, by their rules, he may have been entirely correct.

BUT! Regardless of the rules, if you are not comfortable with what you see, speak up! You always have the choice of continued participation or stepping down.

You made the best decision for yourself and that's a good...no GREAT thing. FWIW, my hat is off to you, sir.


Now...go get your bottlers to produce more Irish Whiskey.
Smile

+1


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 23, 2012, 5:24 AM
Post #9 of 48 (3047 views)
Shortcut
Re: [janz] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What do you do when you go to a dropzone and feel too many corners are being cut?

Good question, but the answer is not -

Quote:
I have looked away a few times and jumped anyway

The one thing you should have before making any jump is a complete understanding and agreement with the operating procedures for the DZ and aircraft you are jumping. Knowing how everything is 'supposed' to work can go a long way toward knowing what to do when things do go the way they're 'supposed' to.

Every time a load flies, every jumper and the pilot are all working as a 'team' to get everyone safely on the ground. If every member of the 'team' doesn't know or understand their role, you increase the chances for running into a problem.

What to do? Speak up. Before jumping, if there's something you don't understand or agree with, speak up. There's a chance that what you think you see isn't what's really happening, or that you simply don't understand how things work at that DZ.

For example, at DZs in the UK, they have mandatory flight line gear checks. What that means is that before boarding the plane, every jumper gets a gear check from another jumper. Now if a jumper who had only jumped in the UK went to a DZ in country without mandatory flight line checks, they might see it as that DZ cutting corners on gear checks by ignoring the regulation, but the truth of the matter is that the flight line checks simply aren't required. The DZ in question might be a safe operation, and might cloesly follow the regulations in their country, it's just that those regs are different than in the UK.

So speak up. The end result will always be positive, as one of two things will happen. Either the 'problem area' will be explained to your satisfaction, and you'll learn something new, or they won't have any excuse for the 'problem area', and you'll learn not to jump there.


5.samadhi

Jan 23, 2012, 3:27 PM
Post #10 of 48 (2865 views)
Shortcut
Re: [IrishDave] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was recently at a boogie in South America.

Cutting corners was a mild way to put what I saw.
I left after my 4th jump. (10 day boogie).

I mentioned what I had issues with to the boogie organizer who dismissed my concerns. "In {country name} we don't care about trivial things like that" was the response.

I'm only new to the sport (240 jumps) and they were sure to let me know that. I don't believe that a safety concern is less valid if it comes from someone with 10 jumps or 10,000 jumps.

Also, I have no problem with anyone smoking weed but seeing the packers openly smoking weed between loads bothered me.
Do you ask packers what their experience level is before you use them? If not, I think your priorities are a little skewed. I think that it would be worse to use an inexperienced packer than a stoned experienced packer. I dont think that marijuana will cause anybody to pack you a total Crazy

but I like the 'do what you're comfortable with' idea. What you and I are comfortable with may differ but we can agree if we're uncomfortable its going to make jumping an unpleasant experience.


(This post was edited by 5.samadhi on Jan 23, 2012, 3:28 PM)


JohnRich  (D License)

Jan 23, 2012, 6:07 PM
Post #11 of 48 (2790 views)
Shortcut
Re: [IrishDave] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, I have no problem with anyone smoking weed but seeing the packers openly smoking weed between loads bothered me.

For experienced jumpers, they can simply choose not to let the stoned packers pack their rig, and do their own packing instead.

Were they packing tandem rigs in this condition?


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 23, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #12 of 48 (2757 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnRich] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

South of the border homes... they can do what they want. Seat belts, wouldn't expect to see them. I would be only concerned with Juan fueling the birds from a horse trough with a old 5 gl bucket of some kind and a funnel. Or parts falling off the 11,000 hrs past TBO engines and those types of corner cutting things, the packers smoking a fatty would be pretty far down the list in a South border/ American and possible third world country.... Getting hurt and needing medical & drinking the non bottled water would be at the top of the list of concerns. Some things you just gotta expect in other parts of the world, our standards here are pretty high.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 23, 2012, 7:30 PM)


bluetwo  (C License)

Jan 23, 2012, 11:43 PM
Post #13 of 48 (2688 views)
Shortcut
Re: [stratostar] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

There were definitely no seat belts in the Pilatus Porter I jumped from in Greece.

To be honest though I don't think I missed 'em... except for that whole part about taking off. I'd be lying if I said I didn't breath easy every time we got up over a thousand feet. At least then you can choose to land under a reserve instead of a crash landing.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 24, 2012, 5:09 AM
Post #14 of 48 (2638 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bluetwo] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There were definitely no seat belts in the Pilatus Porter I jumped from in Greece.

To be honest though I don't think I missed 'em... except for that whole part about taking off. I'd be lying if I said I didn't breath easy every time we got up over a thousand feet. At least then you can choose to land under a reserve instead of a crash landing.

Really? You might want to adjust your 'rest easy' altitude up a few hundred feet. How long do you think it will take to get the door open and for you to actaully leave the plane? If the engine quits, you're going to start losing altitude NOW, so every second that goes by, your 1000ft gets lower and lower.

On top of that, Porters are somtimes loaded 'tight', which makes it that much harder for everyone to get out, especialy from a seated position. If one person in between you and the door has trouble getting up, or getting out, you're going to be well below 1000ft before you get anywhere near the door.


bluetwo  (C License)

Jan 24, 2012, 6:20 AM
Post #15 of 48 (2595 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
There were definitely no seat belts in the Pilatus Porter I jumped from in Greece.

To be honest though I don't think I missed 'em... except for that whole part about taking off. I'd be lying if I said I didn't breath easy every time we got up over a thousand feet. At least then you can choose to land under a reserve instead of a crash landing.

Really? You might want to adjust your 'rest easy' altitude up a few hundred feet. How long do you think it will take to get the door open and for you to actaully leave the plane? If the engine quits, you're going to start losing altitude NOW, so every second that goes by, your 1000ft gets lower and lower.

On top of that, Porters are somtimes loaded 'tight', which makes it that much harder for everyone to get out, especialy from a seated position. If one person in between you and the door has trouble getting up, or getting out, you're going to be well below 1000ft before you get anywhere near the door.

That's true, you're right and when you're right, you're right. These are all very good points and it reminds me that you can't just think about yourself. I was always sitting right by the door since I was just doing hop n' pops for the canopy work but that's no reason to think everyone else would be ok or that they wouldn't all try to spill out at once and get jammed up in the door possibly even getting someone hung up on the wheel or even worse a premature deployment and hung up on the rudder.


cocheese  (D 24000)

Jan 24, 2012, 6:38 AM
Post #16 of 48 (2584 views)
Shortcut
Re: [janz] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Getting hurt in another country is what scares me.

Weed to a packer is like a cigarette to an office worker.

People hung over from alcohol are useless.


(This post was edited by cocheese on Jan 24, 2012, 6:39 AM)


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 24, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #17 of 48 (2548 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You might want to adjust your 'rest easy' altitude up a few hundred feet. How long do you think it will take to get the door open and for you to actaully leave the plane? If the engine quits, you're going to start losing altitude NOW, so every second that goes by, your 1000ft gets lower and lower.

That reminds me of something DiverDriver used to do when he was jumping. When the plane would pass through 1000' and all the lemmings would start taking off helmets and goggles, he would often ask low-timers why they were "de-gearing" at a point when an emergency exit would provide so little time.


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jan 24, 2012, 11:03 AM
Post #18 of 48 (2481 views)
Shortcut
Re: [craigbey] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When the plane would pass through 1000' and all the lemmings would start taking off helmets and goggles, he would often ask low-timers why they were "de-gearing" at a point when an emergency exit would provide so little time.

Well, it's coz their audible beeped and all the c00l guys take off their helmets then!!!!!eleven
That's another "classic" one I dislike. I am very conservative and keep my hat on, and won't unbuckle my belt before 500m (~1500 ft)

A stoned packer or a drunk packer:
- wouldn't have anything packed by him
- would raise concerns about safety in general, especially if the DZO or the security guy wouldn't mind him doing so.


DaVinciflies

Jan 24, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #19 of 48 (2401 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Abedy] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am very conservative and keep my hat on, and won't unbuckle my belt before 500m (~1500 ft)

What if there is an emergency at say 1200ft and you're the one holding everyone up from exiting?

In reply to:
A stoned packer or a drunk packer:
- wouldn't have anything packed by him
- would raise concerns about safety in general, especially if the DZO or the security guy wouldn't mind him doing so.

I agree. There should be zero tolerance for drug or alcohol use during the jumping day.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 24, 2012, 1:25 PM
Post #20 of 48 (2378 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DaVinciflies] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

>What if there is an emergency at say 1200ft and you're the one holding everyone up from exiting?

Then take your seatbelt off.

You are far more likely to be landing with the plane if you have a serious problem at 1200 feet than you are likely to be getting out.


DaVinciflies

Jan 24, 2012, 1:35 PM
Post #21 of 48 (2371 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>What if there is an emergency at say 1200ft and you're the one holding everyone up from exiting?

Then take your seatbelt off.

You are far more likely to be landing with the plane if you have a serious problem at 1200 feet than you are likely to be getting out.

Good luck with that with the pilot shouting "Get out" and 15 other people climbing over you.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 24, 2012, 1:52 PM
Post #22 of 48 (2357 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DaVinciflies] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

>Good luck with that with the pilot shouting "Get out" and 15 other people climbing over you.

Hmm. I've jumped airplanes from C182's to stretch C130's. Had 2 bailouts. No one ever "climbed over me." It never took me more than about half a second to get my seatbelt off. If it takes you longer than that, something's wrong.

Also, no one will be climbing over you. People have this idea that emergencies work like this:

1) Pilot loses power. At the first sign of prop RPM decrease he yells "EMERGENCY! BAIL OUT! BAIL OUT!"

2) All jumpers en masse stand and move quickly and smartly towards the door, which has been opened before the pilot finished talking.

3) Each jumper exits with their hand on their reserve and deploys as soon as they are clear of the airplane.

4) Three seconds later the aircraft is empty and the pilot begins trying to save the imperiled aircraft.

Here's how it really happens:

1) Pilot loses power.

2) Pilot follows his training - trims for glide or best climb, chooses alternates if he has to, runs through the rest of engine out procedures.

3) First jumper says "Hey, what's going on?"

4) Pilot says "Leave me alone!" (or more likely just ignores him.)

5) Second jumper looks up towards the cockpit. Sees the pilot working like crazy. Says "hey, what's going on?"

6) Rest of the load notices what's happening and starts yelling.

7) Pilot finishes the engine-out checklist, realizes he's not going to get a restart, decides that his alternate is not going to result in a great landing and yells "bail out!"

8) First jumper starts yelling "bail out!" Half the people hear him, the other half are still yelling "what's going on?"

9) First jumper gets up and starts to try to push his way to the door.

10) Guy in the back finally realizes what's going on and opens the door.

Now the real confusion starts. Jumpers finally realize they have to leave but are confused - should they exit on main or reserve? What about their camera helmet? I can put that on in just a second here, so I'll - oh wait, what about goggles? Can't exit without goggles! (most people never have) Gotta take the helmet off . . .

Finally the first person exits. Then the second person exits. Then there's a big gap while the third person dithers over the altitude. She has to get out at 1200 feet and she's never gotten out below 5000 feet before! What to do? She finally gets out.

The rest of the load follows. 25 seconds has elapsed since the first problem to the time the last person gets out - and that 1500 foot bailout altitude is now 900.

So don't worry. You'll have time to take your seatbelt off.


skyjames  (D 22308)

Jan 24, 2012, 4:34 PM
Post #23 of 48 (2296 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So don't worry. You'll have time to take your seatbelt off.

That is just damn funny :-)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jan 24, 2012, 7:21 PM
Post #24 of 48 (2238 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi bill,

Might I be allowed to adjust your post based upon personal experience?

"1) Pilot loses power. At the first sign of prop RPM decrease every seasoned jumper on board is instantly aware something is wrong. Then he yells "EMERGENCY! BAIL OUT! BAIL OUT!"

JerryBaumchen


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 24, 2012, 8:09 PM
Post #25 of 48 (2223 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DaVinciflies] cutting corners [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am very conservative and keep my hat on, and won't unbuckle my belt before 500m (~1500 ft)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What if there is an emergency at say 1200ft and you're the one holding everyone up from exiting?

Some DZ actually have an SOP to keep seatbelts on higher than 1k ft agl. Some even go so far as to keep them on up to 2k ft agl.

As Bill mentioned, it's not going to be so quick that you don't have time to take your belt off. There will be a delay between something going wrong, and the pilot calling for an emergency bailout. If you're at all paying attention to the aircraft, the sound and pitch will both indicate that there is a problem, and if you're above your min bailout altitude, you might want to pull your belt off.

In the event that the pilot does not call for a bailout and chooses keep the jumpers on baord for landing, you have plenty of time to belt up before landing. By the time you get too low to jump, it's still anywhere from 30 to 45 seconds until the wheels are back on the ground.

Get the idea of climbing over people out of your head. Replace it with the idea of being attentive to the aircraft, and in the case of a 'possible' emergency, turn your attention to your fellow jumpers and encourage everyone to remain seated, but to prepare for an emergency exit on the command of the pilot. That's means belts off, and jumpers should be ready to jump if the comand is given. This way if the pilot does call for a bailout, there's no need for a climing over people or the like, everyone is aware and ready to jump.


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : General Skydiving Discussions

 


Search for (options)