Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
When rigging, please do / do not...

 

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piisfish

Jan 22, 2012, 1:41 PM
Post #1 of 92 (3895 views)
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When rigging, please do / do not... Can't Post

do use the same materials as originally (or better)
do write down the repairs you have done

do NOT use glue where it is not done by the manufacturer
do NOT leave hook velcro unprotected (specially when it goes against a reserve riser)
do NOT paint your thread because you don't have the correct colour

MadMadMad

yes it was all on the same rig


(This post was edited by piisfish on Jan 22, 2012, 2:40 PM)


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 22, 2012, 2:12 PM
Post #2 of 92 (3803 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

DO NOT question the work or the judgement on somebody with higher rating than yours ONLINE .
If you have any questions and concerns, give them a call. That's the right way to do it. They might know something you are not aware of !!! Not talking about this particular case. I'm talking in general.

Pointing out someone's mistake doesn't make you look more knowledgeable.

If you think that ( when rigging )you have never made or you will never make a mistake, you are bullshitting yourself.

DO the right thing especially when nobody is watching


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 22, 2012, 2:43 PM
Post #3 of 92 (3775 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
do write down the repairs you have done

Just an observation:

In places like the US & Canada we have nothing like a Harness/Container logbook, so any mods or repairs to the rig are undocumented. That's not ideal.


piisfish

Jan 22, 2012, 2:46 PM
Post #4 of 92 (3773 views)
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Re: [Deyan] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

And what happens if they don't care about the remarks I may address to them ?

Like leaving an rsl Velcro unprotected for 10 years? The glue and plastic thing I don't even know who that was as the work has not been written on the gear's documents Unsure

It is just a reminder for things not to do. Could be useful. We are only humans after all


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #5 of 92 (3705 views)
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Re: [pchapman] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
do write down the repairs you have done

Just an observation:

In places like the US & Canada we have nothing like a Harness/Container logbook, so any mods or repairs to the rig are undocumented. That's not ideal.
we dont have a HnC log here wither, but any repairs or mods are noted on the Packing card.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 22, 2012, 5:11 PM
Post #6 of 92 (3681 views)
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Re: [Deyan] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

>DO NOT question the work or the judgement on somebody with higher rating than
>yours ONLINE .

Actually that's a "do." By questioning those things, the rigger might:

1) uncover a systemic problem in someone else's work or
2) might learn something about his own standards that are incorrect.

The worst thing you can do is just ignore the problem and figure "well, other riggers are always right." They're not.

>DO the right thing especially when nobody is watching

Agreed. And that includes figuring out why a gear problem happened in the first place. And often that involves talking to the person using the rig, the person paying for the inspection/repack, the person who last packed it, the manufacturer and other riggers.


Electronaut  (C 38872)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:57 PM
Post #7 of 92 (3643 views)
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Re: [Squeak] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
do write down the repairs you have done

Just an observation:

In places like the US & Canada we have nothing like a Harness/Container logbook, so any mods or repairs to the rig are undocumented. That's not ideal.
we dont have a HnC log here wither, but any repairs or mods are noted on the Packing card.

The problem with that at least in the US is that the packing card goes with the reserve ultimately, which leaves you with the conundrum of what do you if the reserve is detached from the harness/container?


JohnRich  (D License)

Jan 22, 2012, 7:28 PM
Post #8 of 92 (3603 views)
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Re: [billvon] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>DO NOT question the work or the judgement on somebody with higher rating than
>yours ONLINE .

Actually that's a "do." By questioning those things, the rigger might...

I think you missed his point. The part you missed is the "ONLINE" - he even capitalized to try and ensure that noone would misconstrue his message, but you missed it anyway. He's not saying you should ignore it, he's just saying that you shouldn't publicly embarass them by posting it online. It should be done in a private conversation, man to man.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 22, 2012, 10:32 PM
Post #9 of 92 (3536 views)
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Re: When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, piisfish didn't identify the gear, didn't identify the gear's owner, didn't identify the riggers.

It's all depersonalized. So I see no problem with him questioning a situation, whether his opinion is right or wrong. No different than so many other threads on dz discussing some event, issue, or situation.


Kevin116  (D License)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:16 AM
Post #10 of 92 (3471 views)
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Re: [Electronaut] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like there's a hole in the regs, imagine that.

You've posted the packing & data card would go with the "parachute" if removed from the assy. The reg's seem to refer to actions taken on the "parachute", pack, repair, assemble, etc.

The verbiage on a packing card I have says "This log should be kept with the parachute assembly . . . ". I haven't seen where this is in the reg's but it makes more sense than sending it with a canopy removed from a rig.

Part 1 describes "parachute" as a device. Big help!

In aircraft, there is an airframe log (rig) & engine log (canopy). Engine log goes with removed engine.

How would say, the addition of an AAD modification to a rig be documented if the data card went away with a reserve canopy? The riggers log entry would not be traceable without the data card.

What am I missing?


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:47 AM
Post #11 of 92 (3452 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think you missed his point. The part you missed is the "ONLINE" - he even capitalized to try and ensure that noone would misconstrue his message, but you missed it anyway. He's not saying you should ignore it, he's just saying that you shouldn't publicly embarass them by posting it online. It should be done in a private conversation, man to man.

Thanks Wink Exactly what I meant !


piisfish

Jan 23, 2012, 5:47 AM
Post #12 of 92 (3421 views)
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Re: [Deyan] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry if I bunched a couple of panties, but I am missing the part where I embarrassed anyone ? Or maybe did it embarrass all the rigging community by not stating who they were ?

just needed to rant about that as the deconstruction of this glued part did wast A LOT of my time. Plus I don't understand why one would would want to sew through glue. 3 times...Crazy

And also the respective federations are being written to, without pointing at anyone specifically, so they will have documentation for their future rigging courses.


(This post was edited by piisfish on Jan 23, 2012, 5:49 AM)


piisfish

Jan 23, 2012, 5:56 AM
Post #13 of 92 (3415 views)
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Re: [Electronaut] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
do write down the repairs you have done

Just an observation:

In places like the US & Canada we have nothing like a Harness/Container logbook, so any mods or repairs to the rig are undocumented. That's not ideal.
we dont have a HnC log here wither, but any repairs or mods are noted on the Packing card.

The problem with that at least in the US is that the packing card goes with the reserve ultimately, which leaves you with the conundrum of what do you if the reserve is detached from the harness/container?
you can always use a repack line to write down the repairs (IIRC from my FAA Rigger exam, all work performed should be written in the rigger logbook and on the data card)(but I could be wrong).

when you split gear, you can always make a copy to keep with the rig, so that the rig also continues with its history (for example SB's performed etc)

For that kind of stuff, the french system is pretty much complete. Each component has its own logbook. H/C, Reserve parachute, Main parachute, AAD. When you sell/buy separate parts of gear, logbook comes with the gear. A but long for rigger paperwork, not very convenient (you can't keep them in the rig like you would with the "US" data card) but definitely a plus for the history of the gear.


virgin-burner

Jan 23, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #14 of 92 (3336 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
do write down the repairs you have done

Just an observation:

In places like the US & Canada we have nothing like a Harness/Container logbook, so any mods or repairs to the rig are undocumented. That's not ideal.
we dont have a HnC log here wither, but any repairs or mods are noted on the Packing card.

The problem with that at least in the US is that the packing card goes with the reserve ultimately, which leaves you with the conundrum of what do you if the reserve is detached from the harness/container?
you can always use a repack line to write down the repairs (IIRC from my FAA Rigger exam, all work performed should be written in the rigger logbook and on the data card)(but I could be wrong).

when you split gear, you can always make a copy to keep with the rig, so that the rig also continues with its history (for example SB's performed etc)

For that kind of stuff, the french system is pretty much complete. Each component has its own logbook. H/C, Reserve parachute, Main parachute, AAD. When you sell/buy separate parts of gear, logbook comes with the gear. A but long for rigger paperwork, not very convenient (you can't keep them in the rig like you would with the "US" data card) but definitely a plus for the history of the gear.

dont the germans also have such a system in place!?

i just bought a rig and it came with papers, which kinda made me wonder since it's not your typical "dual-parachute system"..


piisfish

Jan 23, 2012, 9:30 AM
Post #15 of 92 (3329 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

don't know, never had any gear from Germany.

But AFAIK even the "oh there is only one canopy in that rig" gear has some kind of homologation in Germany


virgin-burner

Jan 23, 2012, 9:42 AM
Post #16 of 92 (3319 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

now, wouldnt that be cool if every country had such a system in place so you're not forced to bug your rigger if you wanna visit a boogie in another country like the one in czech or others..


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 23, 2012, 10:26 AM
Post #17 of 92 (3281 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

>he's just saying that you shouldn't publicly embarass them by posting it online.

Who is "them?" No one was identified.

>It should be done in a private conversation, man to man.

And in public so others can learn from mistakes.

One of the most valuable seminars at PIA is the "rigging tales of terror" talk, where particularly bad rigging work is demonstrated. I've talked to at least two riggers who said "wow, I'm glad I went to that, I saw X a while back and didn't think it was all that bad!"


Deyan  (D 322)

Jan 23, 2012, 2:29 PM
Post #18 of 92 (3196 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
sorry if I bunched a couple of panties, but I am missing the part where I embarrassed anyone ?

By saying "master riggers" in quotation marks, you were questioning their knowledge.

In reply to:
just needed to rant about that as the deconstruction of this glued part did wast A LOT of my time. Plus I don't understand why one would would want to sew through glue. 3 times...Crazy

That's your problem.

Beside, you didn't mention where the glue was used.
I don't have problems sewing trough a glue. As well as all major harness manufacturers. If they use glue to cut the production time, why I shouldn't do it when doing repairs?

In reply to:
And also the respective federations are being written to, without pointing at anyone specifically, so they will have documentation for their future rigging courses.

That's the way to do it. Plus....If you ever inspect a gear, find some mistake and see my name as the last person who handled that gear, I will appreciate to hear from you.

About the "not protecting the hard velcro case" I'll tell you a story from about 5 years ago.
I did a repack on Javelin with RSL. The owner asked if I can remove the RSL. I protected the hard velcro with a piece of soft velcro. 6 months later the rig came back WITHOUT the soft velcro piece. I asked the jumper where is the velcro and he said that he removed it because he was afraid that the "extra" piece will make the riser covers pop open in freefall.
Now, the question is :"What was going to happen if the guy brought his rig to you for the next repack instead of coming back to me?"
This is a real example. That's why I sad "they might know something you don't".....

No hard feelings.....I thing that we are on the same side and we want the same things. Which are safe gear, less mistakes, piece ,love and a wining lottery ticket Wink


(This post was edited by Deyan on Jan 23, 2012, 2:36 PM)


piisfish

Jan 23, 2012, 3:15 PM
Post #19 of 92 (3164 views)
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Re: [Deyan] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is why I removed that remark from my original thread. Unfortunately at least 2 of them do have a reputation of poor workmanship which is sad.

Plus the glue there makes no sense, and the manufacturer does not glue there. Will post pictures later this week.

Peace, love, safe rigging and lottery tickets


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:58 PM
Post #20 of 92 (3124 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And what happens if they don't care about the remarks I may address to them ?

Like leaving an rsl Velcro unprotected for 10 years? The glue and plastic thing I don't even know who that was as the work has not been written on the gear's documents Unsure

It is just a reminder for things not to do. Could be useful. We are only humans after all

Not a rigger but I'd like to add my $0.02 as from a user's POV.

I totally agree with you that any rigger finding a problem created by a previous rigger should notify him about the problem and discuss it....face-to-face, phone call or ONLINE matters not to me.


What does matter to me is that you let ME, the user/owner know about it.
-If you let me know what the other guy did, I can make the decision to use him again or not.

-If you hide it from me and I found out about it later...guess what...neither one of you would ever touch my rig again.



So, in that light:
DO let the owner know what you found and how you handled it.


deadwood  (D 9930)

Jan 23, 2012, 5:21 PM
Post #21 of 92 (3110 views)
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Re: [pchapman] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the US, maintenance and alterations do have a place they are required to be documented (your rigger logbook) .

However, that doesn't do the next rigger much good.



In reply to:
In reply to:
do write down the repairs you have done

Just an observation:

In places like the US & Canada we have nothing like a Harness/Container logbook, so any mods or repairs to the rig are undocumented. That's not ideal.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jan 23, 2012, 8:09 PM
Post #22 of 92 (3055 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing prevents a rigger from filling two or three lines - on a packing data card - if he has done extensive work on a parachute.
For example, I have written: "Date, owner's name, model, serial number, date of manufacture, where repacked, FXC re-certified by factory March 2007 and re-installed. Harness/container washed. MLWs replaced, Assemble, inspect and repack, etc. signed FAA Master Rigger 1234567"


(This post was edited by riggerrob on Jan 23, 2012, 8:11 PM)


Kevin116  (D License)

Jan 23, 2012, 10:10 PM
Post #23 of 92 (3020 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

Then the packing data card goes away with the canopy and the work to the rig is undocumented. It should be in your log book but there's no traceability from the gear and no record for the inquiry.

I'm not crazy about regulations but this not good.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 24, 2012, 4:26 AM
Post #24 of 92 (2958 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nothing prevents a rigger from filling two or three lines - on a packing data card - if he has done extensive work on a parachute.
For example, I have written: "Date, owner's name, model, serial number, date of manufacture, where repacked, FXC re-certified by factory March 2007 and re-installed. Harness/container washed. MLWs replaced, Assemble, inspect and repack, etc. signed FAA Master Rigger 1234567"

I'm getting the impression from some of the posts in this thread that some of them maybe should be in the "cutting corners" thread. Apparently, some riggers don't record pertinent information as well as they could.

Thanks for your integrity, riggerrob.
Smile

Now, it seems simple to me that IF the pack data card goes with the reserve canopy, a rigger could copy all that rig-related record onto the new pack data card that is being put into that rig.

The old pack data card, having gone with the old reserve, could get a comment written in to indicate the reserve was installed into a different rig from that point forward.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 24, 2012, 4:30 AM)


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Jan 24, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #25 of 92 (2914 views)
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Re: [piisfish] When rigging, please do / do not... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you can always use a repack line to write down the repairs (IIRC from my FAA Rigger exam, all work performed should be written in the rigger logbook and on the data card)(but I could be wrong).

There are some riggers that will argue the point but Part 65 does not require documenting repairs or work done to the rig on the packing record card.

Sparky


65.131 Records.

(c) Each certificated parachute rigger who packs a parachute shall write, on the parachute packing record attached to the parachute, the date and place of the packing and a notation of any defects he finds on inspection. He shall sign that record with his name and the number of his certificate.



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