Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Does anyone like the new rules?

 

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morris

Jan 19, 2012, 7:50 AM
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Does anyone like the new rules? Can't Post

Is there anything good about em at all?
Did I get it right?
The idea is to a) reduce the performance and b) increase safety.
(I guess a) is to make it more boring for spectators?).
To compensate for a) its going to be way more dangerous as a lot of guys will likely skip off the water while they are trying to drag it at maximum speed. So we can expect to see wild crashes on a regular basis. Hopefully theyll all end up in the pond and not on solid ground after bounching off the surface...
Question is, what is more dangerous, a controlled landing after a pop-up or a crash in the water with a chance of ending up on solid ground...
Now I got it, my fault, should have noticed it right away, the idea is to reduce performance and DEcrease safety, spectators will love the wild crashes...


frost  (D 25011)

Jan 19, 2012, 12:05 PM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

I like them. I think it takes the sport of Canopy Piloting back to its roots - swooping, dragging water and having fun. What CP is now has become dry and boring to me.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jan 19, 2012, 12:16 PM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

Re: crashes --> We're getting closer to a primetime spot on ESPN!!

As an organizer of the CA league I can tell you the new rules will have a lot of impact in several areas.

From a logistics standpoint, there is very little course changes that need to occur. This will speed things up. However, timing the speed course gets tricky (no camera focal point) and we don't have the super cool timing system FLCPA has. Camera will be required on several 5ft gates to confirm the competitor stays below in the distance event. We can probably get by with 1 additional camera on the 50m gate.

I think the new rules significantly reduce safety margins for the power events, speed and distance. My guess is you will see more crashes. This will also require all events on the pond. Last year CA ran the distance course off of the pond because of space concerns at the end of the pond. We can likely now run the event on the pond, but the pond is only about 60 ft wide. It will be easy to skip off the pond onto dry land.

I know the feedback I have received out here in CA is mostly negative. They don't like the changes. I kinda liked the carve in the speed event - as it tested another aspect of canopy flight.

Overall - I think we'll have to run a few meets to make a decision good or bad. I just hope we don't get anyone hurt in the process.

Marcel


frost  (D 25011)

Jan 19, 2012, 1:07 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Marcel

Let me ask you a question that perhaps is so obvious that nobody cares to ask...

Why do we have to have regional canopy competitions adhere to the IPC rules? What stops you as an organizer from running modified rules or even creating your own?

Possible answer: i want to train for the Nationals. Yes, agreed, valid point! But is everyone who competes at the Regional meets going to the Nationals? Are these official CP events really fun for them or is it the only type of canopy piloting comp you/they know?

Have you ever seen the Ranch Pond Swoop Nationals videos, Swoop and Swoop 2? That's where it started for me, that's what swooping was to me - dragging water, touching targets, splashing and having fun. A few years ago I swayed away from that and started competing in CP, doing multiple comps a year. Now i find myself thinking "Is a badly bruised back side and a canopy full of sand really where the fun is?" Last year i didnt do a single one.

Someday, I'd like to ask all the old timers that inspired me and who no longer compete - Would you rather participate in a Ranch style Pond Swoop or would you rather do Canopy Piloting and see what the answers would be...


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jan 19, 2012, 1:22 PM
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Re: [frost] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alot of the competitors in CA use the meets as training for Nationals. I believe Florida is the same way. All of the Florida and California meets were scheduled such that the season would be over prior to Nationals in June. I would say a majority of the folks in CA did attend Nationals last year. Our first place winner in the Pro and Amateur group have Nationals paid for this year, so the league is basically built to lead up to Nationals.

I believe the other CA organizers in SoCal (-ISM) have run modified events, that didn't follow the IPC rules.

I haven't been doing this long enough to know if I like or don't like the new rules. I know there have been some changes over the past decade, and this potentially is another one.


Guinness_fr  (D 109579)

Jan 20, 2012, 2:49 AM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the 50 feet (from memory) requirement between the beginning of the pond and the entry gates does not seem enough if we are to drag the entry gate for power events (speed & distance), especially in downwind conditions, as it would make some competitors attack the ground aggressively.
In downwind conditions I think we'd need something more in the 100 feet range, can all existing ponds accomodate this and then allow for dragging the entire speed course ?

PS: I like the idea of going back to fun swoop courses as in the early 2000s Tongue


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 22, 2012, 7:04 AM
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Re: [frost] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like them. I think it takes the sport of Canopy Piloting back to its roots - swooping, dragging water and having fun. What CP is now has become dry and boring to me.

I totally agree


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 22, 2012, 7:12 AM
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Re: [frost] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someday, I'd like to ask all the old timers that inspired me and who no longer compete - Would you rather participate in a Ranch style Pond Swoop or would you rather do Canopy Piloting and see what the answers would be...

I'll bite; I haven't competed at Nationals or at a PST event since 2005. I would MUCH rather compete in Ranch PSN-type meets. You can keep the ultra-loaded, pop-up, ass-smashing distance runs that have been vogue these past years.

Chuck
an old guy in the vintage Ranch PSN videos


morris

Jan 22, 2012, 8:52 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

But shouldnt any competition (at least if its a "serious" one at a high level and not "just" some kind of fun event) be focused on achieving the highest/best performance(s)? (besides safety)
Its like someone would say "VFS is too technical (or difficult or whatever), I prefer the classic kind of Freefly". That person should feel free to enjoy whatever he (she) likes. But those who want to push the limits should have their opportunities to do so as well, at least in my opinion....


polarbear  (D 25673)

Jan 22, 2012, 9:36 AM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually haven't seen the new rules. Can someone post a link to tham?


DaVinciflies

Jan 22, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to me that the rule changes make sense and are akin to the changes that are regularly made in F1 to keep things safe and competitive.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:19 PM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its like someone would say "VFS is too technical (or difficult or whatever), I prefer the classic kind of Freefly". That person should feel free to enjoy whatever he (she) likes. But those who want to push the limits should have their opportunities to do so as well, at least in my opinion....
No it's not. You can go do the artistic events. I'm not saying our point is invalid, just that your analogy is.


Jiggs  (F 745)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:20 PM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Not a fan of the changes, I understand the thinking on what was trying to be achieved by the changes but think that they mostly makes things more dangerous for competitors.

By requiring people to drag on the power events I think there will be many more smash ins on the water; the whole idea of 5ft gates was to have some kind of safety margin on the power events but now we are reducing that margin to nothing. So my belief is that more people will get hurt/killed trying to bring all the power to the deck. I think it was noticeable at Dubai as a water touch was allowed (and not the score on distance runs) - seemed like a whole bunch more people than normal chowed in hard on distance (not something that you normally see).

So for Distance:

Benefit - cuts the distance so more locations comply with the course requirements (e.g. size of run-off)
Benefit - will possibly reduce the number of people having arse shattering landings having milked their canopies to max performance (maybe)
Con - More people smashing in the entry
Con - more hassle with course as needing to check for Vertical Extension

I think this change is not great but okay. An alternative might be the maximum distance dragged from the entry (including land). That way you get the long water drag and still get the distance (without the smash in landing at the end). Only problem is the
The other option I see would be forget the drag at entry and just have a VE rule across the first 50 metres or something

For Speed:

Benefit: Looks better to the public
Benefit: Easier course to setup
Con: Straight line sucks balls (carving is fun!) - in effect we are losing a component of flight here
Con: More people will smash in
Con: Will suck in strong headwinds e.g. drag 50+ metres into 5-7 metre headwinds and see how you go (most people, myself included would struggle over the current ZA of 36m). Who wins when everyone gets a zero?

I am told that at the CP meeting at Klatovy competitors voted against the speed changes and for some version of changes to the distance rules.

Overall it is probably better for the general public as there will be more carnage and more dragging of water but shittier for the competitor. I don't feel the need to entertain punters by increasing risk for me.

If I had a vote I would keep speed the same and can live with the distance change but would prefer it to not require a water contact for the safety aspect. I think the VE rule could restrict the distances and might help with safety.


(This post was edited by Jiggs on Jan 22, 2012, 4:21 PM)


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 22, 2012, 10:46 PM
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Re: [Jiggs] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

well comp one is over using new rules and not one injury during event day. Total of 47 competitors and I think 10 were at their first comp. Is it safer? I dont know never competed before this one.


frost  (D 25011)

Jan 25, 2012, 5:53 AM
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, here is the first hand account about the new rules and safety. Anyone who knows anything knows that Al knows everything there is to know about shrimpin bidnez running a comp.
http://swoopleague.com/


(This post was edited by frost on Jan 25, 2012, 7:34 AM)


frost  (D 25011)

Jan 25, 2012, 6:00 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

Chuck. I was thinking of you as i was writing that :)

Morris, of course. We do what we like to do and if we dont like it - hopefully we dont have to do it ;)

My points were two fold:
1 - unfortunately some of the modern day pilots have no idea what it's like to be in a fun competition like the old RPSN. CPC/PST style events is all they know...
2 - there should be a choice and if someone (especially an organizer) is not liking the current rules - nothing is stopping them from changing them and running a comp how they see fit.


(This post was edited by frost on Jan 25, 2012, 6:01 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 25, 2012, 6:27 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Someday, I'd like to ask all the old timers that inspired me and who no longer compete - Would you rather participate in a Ranch style Pond Swoop or would you rather do Canopy Piloting and see what the answers would be...

I'll bite; I haven't competed at Nationals or at a PST event since 2005. I would MUCH rather compete in Ranch PSN-type meets. You can keep the ultra-loaded, pop-up, ass-smashing distance runs that have been vogue these past years.

Chuck
an old guy in the vintage Ranch PSN videos

+1


morris

Jan 25, 2012, 7:39 AM
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Re: [frost] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, there are two key sentences in Als report:
"With the new rules, finesse would be the way to a good score..."
and
"Before starting distance we briefed everyone that the angles and approaches should look like accuracy approaches, not the old distance approaches."

I would like to argue that instead of one finesse and two power events, like in the past, those rules would kind of change the discipline into three finesse events.
Maybe its just me, but to me it is all about power, generating as much as possible, using it for distance or speed, in the very first place!
With ZA being the event where you have to show, how good you can controlle that power. But besides that, for me its "full steam ahead, please!"

Frost, thoughts regarding "We do what we like to do and if we dont like it - hopefully we dont have to do it ;)":
Fortunately no one has to do it.
If someone doesnt like the fact that the carving part drops out of the picture and its all only straight on stuff, he (she) can stop competing.
Same goes for the fact that, with those rules being effective, with water being "involved" in all events, a pond is needed more than ever before - for training! And we are far from having them everywhere...
And if someone thinks about touching the water at max speed being too dangerous, he can stop competing as well.
How about the very same person wishing to keep on competing? Take the risk or stop competing?

Should the "neverending hunt" for better and better performances really be over once and forever, only because Nick and Jonathan had some very nice runs?
And because due to those runs someone at the IPC - I know him but I wont name him - is worried about the event not fitting anymore in enough places/DZs??
That "problem" can be solved way easier. Example: The minimum length for distance before the PD Big Box Pants Event was ~230m (Nicks by the time valid worldrecord of about ~180m + 50m).
If a DZs has more room, fine, if not, 230m will always ever be still enough.
Worst case szenario: A DZ with only 230m of openspace is running an event and is located at highelevation and has some of the very best pilots attending and a strong downwind is blowing down the course. Rules just need to allow the chief judge to stop the event if there isnt enough room and the downwind dangerously strong and we are "safe" again...

The "hunt" for better and better performances is key to any sport I can think about (and mankind in general), cessation is regression...

But maybe Im just too much into downwind distance... :-)


morris

Jan 25, 2012, 7:52 AM
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Re: [frost] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like them. I think it takes the sport of Canopy Piloting back to its roots - swooping, dragging water and having fun. What CP is now has become dry and boring to me.

Lucky you! You can go and enjoy Freestyle all the time!
But should we really give up this kind of stuff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCgGSdnoU0
Only because a handful of trees might be standing inbetween yourself flying down the course and a new worldrecord?
Love it! Will keep on going!


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Jan 25, 2012, 3:43 PM
Post #20 of 56 (2456 views)
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Re: [morris] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I like them. I think it takes the sport of Canopy Piloting back to its roots - swooping, dragging water and having fun. What CP is now has become dry and boring to me.

Lucky you! You can go and enjoy Freestyle all the time!
But should we really give up this kind of stuff?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCgGSdnoU0
Only because a handful of trees might be standing inbetween yourself flying down the course and a new worldrecord?
Love it! Will keep on going!

HaHa Pirate


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 25, 2012, 3:51 PM
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Re: [frost] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Chuck. I was thinking of you as i was writing that :)

Morris, of course. We do what we like to do and if we dont like it - hopefully we dont have to do it ;)

My points were two fold:
1 - unfortunately some of the modern day pilots have no idea what it's like to be in a fun competition like the old RPSN. CPC/PST style events is all they know...
2 - there should be a choice and if someone (especially an organizer) is not liking the current rules - nothing is stopping them from changing them and running a comp how they see fit.

Sure, but the few years I was running a swoop league I was trying to prepare local jumpers to compete safely at nationals. That was while trying to spur interest in a fun and safe swoop comp. We were there to cheer for each other, heckle each other and help each other learn.

With that said, I think a different style of swoop comp that afforded "safe" chows would be wildly popular with spectators. Now days if you chowder in, it is HARD and FAST. The last time I bounced the pond I hit so hard that I had to have my rig repaired and it smooth rung my bell. That was the year I pulled out of doing the PST and gave you my slot.

To this day I still watch my Swoop 2 DVD. I smile and wish I could go back to then. In the last 10 years we've seen the waning of the golden age of competitive swooping. It has been replaced with science, the competitive edge, training and technique. The competitors ability has increased significantly, but so have the speeds and potential for injury from the modern techniques (popups for example).

I'm not sure we can return to the past now...


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 25, 2012, 7:31 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s91IY7z9xs
We really need to get Swoop and Swoop 2 online somewhere, who owns the rights?


DaVinciflies

Jan 25, 2012, 8:46 PM
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Re: [danielcroft] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

Great video.

Who is the ginger British Doris who makes a few comments?


frost  (D 25011)

Jan 26, 2012, 6:30 AM
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Re: [danielcroft] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s91IY7z9xs
We really need to get Swoop and Swoop 2 online somewhere, who owns the rights?

Marcus Antebi, the legendary media janitor. He is on Facebook and the Swoop videos are on youtube, protected though. Shoot him a message.


frost  (D 25011)

Jan 26, 2012, 6:43 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Does anyone like the new rules? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm not sure we can return to the past now...

I think we can and will, Dave. Everything goes in cycles, you've been at it long enough to have seen it. Ultra small canopies got bigger, then smaller again, back to bigger... RW, Freefly, vRW...

JT was saying on the IPC facebook group about something along the lines of "those who've been swooping since the beginning" - dude, he is like 3rd or 4th generation and we are 5th or 6th. Swooping was swooping when there were no x-braced canopies and way before most current "old school" competitors made their first skydive. I bet people like Chuck can tell us all about it.

Soon enough, i think, people will get tired of CPC and RPSN/freestyle type events will make a come back. I may be wrong, but i sure do hope it happens.


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