again, the person with the most risk in that scenario is the pilot -
he'd have been better off voicing his concern to the pilot and letting the pilot decide about the entire load
after that, if the pilot thinks he can release under the rules (in his opinion, or under any waivers that the jumpers might not be aware of, or just because the pilot is a rule breaker, etc etc etc), each jumper should be able to choose for themselves - and each instructor for their students
A couple things....
First, the safety of everyone on the plane comes ahead of regulations in my world, and an unrestrained body is a very dangerous thing in a crash, or even in a "hard landing" for that matter. The last thing I want is the weight of a human body on top of me as we pull a few G's (which, by the way, is a good reason to not just put your belt on but also pull it tight).
Second, if the pilot isn't concerned about jumpers wearing their belts for takeoff, I'm concerned about the pilot and what else he/she doesn't care about.
BTW, I doubt you'll find any DZ operation with a waiver allowing jumpers to leave belts off during takeoff. If you're going to debate, be realistic.
i was at a boogie, there were some big white puffies but plenty of holes. one guy on the load said to the entire load, "if i can't see the ground, no one is getting out of this plane.
my favorite reply was, "if the pilot puts on the green light, you can get the fuck out of my way!"
that guy was a dick, you not so much
Now we've gone from talking about seat belts to cloud clearances. let's not mudy the water. Again, other than inconvenience/uncomfortable, what is a valid reason for not wanting to wear a seat belt during take off?
i was at a boogie, there were some big white puffies but plenty of holes. one guy on the load said to the entire load, "if i can't see the ground, no one is getting out of this plane.
my favorite reply was, "if the pilot puts on the green light, you can get the fuck out of my way!"
that guy was a dick, you not so much
Now we've gone from talking about seat belts to cloud clearances. let's not mudy the water. Again, other than inconvenience/uncomfortable, what is a valid reason for not wanting to wear a seat belt during take off?
Because no one that's cool wears a seatbelt????? If you've been around as long as your profile says, I'm sure you remember those days. I can still remember my 1st boogie, Skyvan with a ramp type tailgate, never closed the gate, sitting on the outside edge of the tailgate hanging on to a seat belt for dear life but not buckled because no one did that. It's not that many years ago that wearing a seatbelt went from uncool to cool.
The NTSB has taken a great interest in seatbelt use on skydiving airplanes. You can think of the NTSB and the FAA as being a sniper team, with the NTSB as spotter and the FAA as shooter. If I was the pilot, I wouldn't want to make myself into a target. Or let some stubborn skydiver who doesn't want to wear a seatbelt do it for me.
(This post was edited by Programmer on Jan 10, 2012, 3:14 PM)
It's not that many years ago that wearing a seatbelt went from uncool to cool.
I don't remember wearing seatbelts ever being a matter of cool or uncool. It was a matter of a combination of an evolution of understanding & attitudes, and an FAA crackdown.
After the Perris Otter crash, in which the plane fell from less than 100 feet yet killed everyone on board except the 4 people who were in the back of the plane and therefore on the top of the body pile, it became apparent to everyone that being restrained during a hard landing was an important element of survival.
So I guess you could say knowing how to live to see the beer light come on went from uncool to cool.
Not using a seat belt should not even be an option. Don't start rolling until everyone has their own belt and they are properly connected. Make that clear. Make that a part of Safety Day and post a sign in the plane as a reminder.
On a personal level ... most of the TI's I encounter are good people doing some heavy lifting. A lot of what they do makes it possible for the rest of us to go out and play. If they ask something of me, I try to help or at least comply with any directives. You have a fun jumper who needs an attitude adjustment,
again, the person with the most risk in that scenario is the pilot -
he'd have been better off voicing his concern to the pilot and letting the pilot decide about the entire load
after that, if the pilot thinks he can release under the rules (in his opinion, or under any waivers that the jumpers might not be aware of, or just because the pilot is a rule breaker, etc etc etc), each jumper should be able to choose for themselves - and each instructor for their students
A couple things....
First, the safety of everyone on the plane comes ahead of regulations in my world, and an unrestrained body is a very dangerous thing in a crash, or even in a "hard landing" for that matter. The last thing I want is the weight of a human body on top of me as we pull a few G's (which, by the way, is a good reason to not just put your belt on but also pull it tight).
Second, if the pilot isn't concerned about jumpers wearing their belts for takeoff, I'm concerned about the pilot and what else he/she doesn't care about.
BTW, I doubt you'll find any DZ operation with a waiver allowing jumpers to leave belts off during takeoff. If you're going to debate, be realistic.
Chuck - you're discussing the seat belt thing. My response on this one was about patchy cloud scenario. Ego and Pissing matches on jump run is not productive. Dealing with it with the DZO or S&TA on the ground afterwards is better. If you're going to go into your normal abuse mode, at least keep up with the thread.
If you want my thoughts on the seat belt thing, it's up thread - I think the OP did the right thing and consider that the pilot 'should' have taken care of it before the OP had to. then a small discussion about how we train and mentor our people.
(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jan 10, 2012, 4:43 PM)
I find that belt usage is applied well, but still plenty of helmets with substantial cameras held by hand during takeoff. It would be nice to see the same push to comply in this area.
(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jan 10, 2012, 6:19 PM)
I find that belt usage is applied well, but still plenty of helmets with substantial cameras held by hand during takeoff. It would be nice to see the same push to comply in this area.
The 2 DZ's I have regularly jumped at for the past decade - Skydive Houston and Skydive Spaceland - require ALL lose objects to be secured during takeoff.
I've seen it posted as a rule on a big sign in the plane, but still often enough not complied with. I've seen it at various DZs. As you suggest, definitely worth bringing up with the staff, as an item for safety day, etc.
(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jan 10, 2012, 7:23 PM)
I find that belt usage is applied well, but still plenty of helmets with substantial cameras held by hand during takeoff. It would be nice to see the same push to comply in this area
This is unacceptable, and easily fixed. There are two options, the first is to thread the chin-cup or back-strap ratchet strap through the swoop cord of the jumpers camera suit, and fasten the ratchet strap. The second, is to stich up a lanyard of appropriate strength material with loops at each end. One end is larks headed around the jumpers arm or through a chest strap, and the other end is passed through the above mentioned ratchet strap. Problem solved for free or very little money.
i was at a boogie, there were some big white puffies but plenty of holes. one guy on the load said to the entire load, "if i can't see the ground, no one is getting out of this plane.
my favorite reply was, "if the pilot puts on the green light, you can get the fuck out of my way!"
that guy was a dick, you not so much
Now we've gone from talking about seat belts to cloud clearances. let's not mudy the water. Again, other than inconvenience/uncomfortable, what is a valid reason for not wanting to wear a seat belt during take off?
Because no one that's cool wears a seatbelt????? If you've been around as long as your profile says, I'm sure you remember those days. I can still remember my 1st boogie, Skyvan with a ramp type tailgate, never closed the gate, sitting on the outside edge of the tailgate hanging on to a seat belt for dear life but not buckled because no one did that. It's not that many years ago that wearing a seatbelt went from uncool to cool.
Wow! I'm really hoping your answer to my question was a satirical response? I can remember a ton of shit we did back "in the day". Probelm is, we now know better. Well, at least we should.
I still have not seen a good reason not to wear a belt. And, my question remains.. Is there something I've missed?
again, the person with the most risk in that scenario is the pilot -
he'd have been better off voicing his concern to the pilot and letting the pilot decide about the entire load
after that, if the pilot thinks he can release under the rules (in his opinion, or under any waivers that the jumpers might not be aware of, or just because the pilot is a rule breaker, etc etc etc), each jumper should be able to choose for themselves - and each instructor for their students
A couple things....
First, the safety of everyone on the plane comes ahead of regulations in my world, and an unrestrained body is a very dangerous thing in a crash, or even in a "hard landing" for that matter. The last thing I want is the weight of a human body on top of me as we pull a few G's (which, by the way, is a good reason to not just put your belt on but also pull it tight).
Second, if the pilot isn't concerned about jumpers wearing their belts for takeoff, I'm concerned about the pilot and what else he/she doesn't care about.
BTW, I doubt you'll find any DZ operation with a waiver allowing jumpers to leave belts off during takeoff. If you're going to debate, be realistic.
I like to think of myself as being a pretty good pilot, and have emerged alive from circumstances that have killed many another pilot. Having said that, I avoid like plague the aforementioned circumstances, since the outcome was by no means assured.
One thing that scares the hell out of me is having an unsecured load of meat aft of me while low and slow - like while taking off. I do not care who you are, if everyone moves aft suddenly such that a stall is induced right after take off, you're screwed. Of course, you then have the unsecured meat, cameras and what have you serving as projectiles when sudden deceleration results.
If you are on my plane, you wear a seatbelt. That is not optional.
The only circumstances I can think of where I am not sure if seatbelts should be used (I know the FAA mandates it for take off/landing, just throwing out a hypothetical) is if you are sitting near an open door on take off.
On the one hand you want a belt to stop you falling out the door (never did like sitting by open doors on the cessna etc on take off without a belt on) - but there is a risk (granted, probably smaller than falling out) of a premature deployment through the open door. If that happens and you are wearing a belt there is a very high chance of you bringing the plane down. You are already low and slow, then add the drag from an opening canopy attached to a belt in the plane.
Of course, it is now pretty rare for people to be in planes without a door on take off as we have all decided we like to be warm - and we should all be checking gear and watching our handles. Just a thought
Krisanne, you are correct and thanks for the correction.
I always wear a seatbelt (even look for them occasionally on my motorcycle!) and realize that my comment came off a little sarcastic. My real fear in a minor airplane accident, if there is such a thing, is the person or camera that is not attached. The rest of us become the target.
You are correct and the report that you linked is a good one to re-read.
Not to mention keeping the CG where it's supposed to be should the pilot need to make an evasive maneuver during climb-out. Kinda tough to keep it going forward when all the meat is on the ceiling.
Not directed at you danornan... I don't understand the mentality of a skydiver that will shell out 1200.00 for an AAD that is classified as a back-up safety device, but not have the simple sense to utilize that primary safety devise required when flying in an aircraft?!
And as far as I'm concerned...helmets, cameras, hand grenades & ham sandwiches need to be secured during take-off as well.
The most critical time is that first few minutes...WHY can't ya wear the seat belt & helmet for that long?
Kids on bikes wear helmets & we're going a lot faster, any idea what a smack in the melon will do regarding disorientation and the inability to perform basic survival measures...like bail-out?
I've BEEN in a few plane crashes...I wear every bit of gear I have during take off, gloves too...twisted metal is sharp & fire is hot.
If someone thinks 'looking cool' or 'being comfortable' trumps the whole physics thing...they're a fuckin' IDIOT.
I don't understand the mentality of a skydiver that will shell out 1200.00 for an AAD that is classified as a back-up safety device, but not have the simple sense to utilize that primary safety devise required when flying in an aircraft?!
I like that! I'm going to use it the next time.
In reply to:
And as far as I'm concerned...helmets, cameras, hand grenades & ham sandwiches need to be secured during take-off as well.
The most critical time is that first few minutes...WHY can't ya wear the seat belt & helmet for that long?
-It's hot! -It's uncomfortable! -I'm a skygod - (insert any other dumb ass justification they idiots can come up with)
In reply to:
If someone thinks 'looking cool' or 'being comfortable' trumps the whole physics thing...they're a fuckin' IDIOT.
True story...that's almost word for word what I told one dumbass TI.
THIS idiot, on take-off, maybe 1-200 ft off, gets up off the Otter straddle bench back by the pilot, leaves his PX sitting there, climbs over everyone to get to the door and screams at the they guy in the door (me) to open it and leave it open on take-off. ...and then threatens, "Or I'll kick your ass"....door stayed closed.
We had some words on landing.
Lately, now that I'm too old and decrepit to go a few rounds, I just avoid the loads with the idiots that want to keep the door open on take-off....one of the reasons I jump so much anymore.
(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 13, 2012, 1:52 AM)
This idiot, on take-off, maybe 1-200 ft off, gets up off the Otter straddle bench back by the pilot, leaves his PX sitting there, climbs over everyone to get to the door and screams at the guy in the door (me) to open it and leave it open on take-off.
Does the DZ have any established rules regarding wearing seatbelts and securing items until a specific altitude? What about the operation of the door? Closed until a specific altitude?
These are very simple things that should not be subject to interpretation. These rules could be established by the DZ and clearly posted in the plane.
i was at a boogie, there were some big white puffies but plenty of holes. one guy on the load said to the entire load, "if i can't see the ground, no one is getting out of this plane.
my favorite reply was, "if the pilot puts on the green light, you can get the fuck out of my way!"
that guy was a dick, you not so much
Kettle meet the pot. I have a feeling you lead the rest of your life in the same manner. Why do some people insist on wearing the ignorance on their like a badge of honor?
If you are on my plane, you wear a seatbelt. That is not optional.
BSBD,
Winsor
I visited a US DZ last fall with some friends while on vacation. It is primarily a tandem mill (resort town) but we wanted to get a jump in so at the end of the day when the tandems were done they let the 5 of us make a jump. The jump plane was a Cessna U206 and I sat next to the pilot. As I fumbled to find and put the seatbelt on the pilot leaned over and said what sounded like “We’re not real big on that here”. Since I figured I had heard him wrong I asked “what?”. He repeated “We’re not real big on that here”. I replied “okay” and put my seatbelt on. I can’t imagine why he would discourage seatbelt use.
i was at a boogie, there were some big white puffies but plenty of holes. one guy on the load said to the entire load, "if i can't see the ground, no one is getting out of this plane.
my favorite reply was, "if the pilot puts on the green light, you can get the fuck out of my way!"
that guy was a dick, you not so much
Having had a canopy collision, I am kind of a chicken. I still have scars from the line burns - and I got off easy.
I was a load organizer at a boogie where the most experienced person in my group was near the door. We were all in agreement that, if he did not see sufficient openings in the clouds at breakoff to opening altitude, we would ride the plane down.
A couple of tandem masters kept yelling "GO!" when our spotter kept shaking his head.
To which I replied "Fuck you!"
We then let the tandems jump and rode the plane down.
While we were ready to eat the jump tickets (I would have paid for the group to avoid having yet another near-death experience at the very least), the aircraft owner put us an another load when it cleared up. He approved of my decision to err on the side of safety, having had to deal with the aftermath of too many bad decisions over the years, but took me to task for doing anything to freak out the tandem students/passengers.
He was right about my reaction to the TM, and I greatly appreciate his support of a safety-related decision.
If you want to jump and I do not, and the pilot has turned on the green light, I will do nothing to impede your safe exit. After that, you are on your own.
