Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
seat belts

 

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skydvrvalco  (D 29564)

Jan 9, 2012, 8:32 AM
Post #1 of 65 (2543 views)
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seat belts Can't Post

 Would like to hear some input on a scenario I find unacceptable.
Ever get on a plane and there are person(s) who refuse to put on a seatbelt.
While taxi i ask, (Are you gonna put on your seat belt?) The reply was no.
I ask the pilot to let me out because i'm not takeing off in this plane unless everyone is wearing a seatbelt.
The pilot turns around taxis back to loading area.
I unfasten my tandem student and get out of the plane. The dz manager is there to investigate the problem. I explain.
he turns to the young lady fun jumper and tells her to put on her seat belt. She complies and we have an uneventful safe skydive.
In retrospect I could have just kept my mouth shut and sacrificed the safety of my student,myself and all other jumpers on the load.
Now I am disliked and considered to be the asshole who had the audacity,to insist that all jumpers comply with the most basic BSR.Seeking sugestions on how to handle this. She still doesn't wear the seatbelt. I can't fix stupid. or can I?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 9, 2012, 8:39 AM
Post #2 of 65 (2513 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

Its not just a BSR but its a FAR from the FAA. Remind the pilot that he can be busted and his license suspended if he is found to allow that regulation to have been violated.


danornan  (D 11308)

Jan 9, 2012, 8:40 AM
Post #3 of 65 (2510 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

You would think that after turning the plane around a few times that either the DZO or the pilot would take action. $$$ generally speaks!

I don't think personally that the seat belt will help much in an accident, but it might keep the bodies from all ending up in one small spot. Maybe make it easier for the EMS to locate everyone or if it just a slight bump ( is that possible?) keep everyone from landing up on top of one person.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 9, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #4 of 65 (2499 views)
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Re: [danornan] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I don't think personally that the seat belt will help much in an accident, but it might keep the bodies from all ending up in one small spot. Maybe make it easier for the EMS to locate everyone or if it just a slight bump ( is that possible?) keep everyone from landing up on top of one person.

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3288317

Incidents like the above are one of the reasons I respectfully disagree with you. No one was wearing belts, and the person most severely injured had others thrown towards him.

In certain types of crashes, seatbelts can and do make a huge difference in the severity of injury. Sure, in some situations, everyone on board is going to die regardless of whether they have seatbelts. But if it's survivable (and a good number are), seatbelts can significantly improve your odds. Since we have no idea which type we're going to be in, might as well wear the belts.


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Jan 9, 2012, 8:54 AM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 9, 2012, 8:52 AM
Post #5 of 65 (2498 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

you did the right thing, you already know it - not sure what you're looking for here - reinforcement?


As for personalities - Seems that being considered an asshole is usually a matter of your delivery to the skydiver, not the content - did you kindly remind her of the seatbelt requirement and ask her to put it on? or did you just verbally smack her down and not give her a chance to do the right thing without conflict?

note that I have no idea of the details and I'm just guessing - we don't have her side


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 9, 2012, 9:04 AM
Post #6 of 65 (2482 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
note that I have no idea of the details and I'm just guessing - we don't have her side

Well, her side is either...
-I DID put my belt on, or
-I did NOT put my belt on.

If you are implying that HOW he spoke to her makes a difference on whether or not she complied with FARs, I would disagree with that.

If you are implying that he earned the "asshole" reputation by talking to her in some other way than touchy-feely trying to get her to comply with FARs, then I would disagree with that.

If the people on the DZ consider him an "asshole" for insisting on FAR compliance, regardless of his approach, then I would say that those people are the assholes.

Since he indicates that she STILL has not gotten the message, I'd say that SHE, and the DZO, are both the assholes....no quotes intended.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 9, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #7 of 65 (2475 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

Good for you. We need more people to be concerned with safety.

Now keep up the pressure until she, and everyone, DOES comply...on every load.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 9, 2012, 9:12 AM
Post #8 of 65 (2474 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its not just a BSR but its a FAR from the FAA. Remind the pilot that he can be busted and his license suspended if he is found to allow that regulation to have been violated.

Hear! Hear!
That plus being a safety issue.


danornan  (D 11308)

Jan 9, 2012, 9:18 AM
Post #9 of 65 (2462 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

Krisanne, you are correct and thanks for the correction.

I always wear a seatbelt (even look for them occasionally on my motorcycle!) and realize that my comment came off a little sarcastic. My real fear in a minor airplane accident, if there is such a thing, is the person or camera that is not attached. The rest of us become the target.

You are correct and the report that you linked is a good one to re-read.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 9, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #10 of 65 (2460 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

no, I agree with you that the matter of compliance is cut and dried.

but you have to admit, that some skydivers can pretty much take even a reasonable statement and pretty much shut down the skydiver they are talking to

I'd side with our poster here without any info - most people are pretty decent about this stuff

big difference between
"hey, we need to wear seatbelts on takeoff, you wanna buckle up?"

vs

"hey, HEY, HEY!!!! you - DUMBASS ... buckleup you shithead, you wanna KILL my passenger here? {mutter} what the hell is going on with all the stupid newbies lately"


I've seen it in action - and I know you have too


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 9, 2012, 9:19 AM
Post #11 of 65 (2458 views)
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Re: [danornan] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think personally that the seat belt will help much in an accident, but it might keep the bodies from all ending up in one small spot. Maybe make it easier for the EMS to locate everyone or if it just a slight bump ( is that possible?) keep everyone from landing up on top of one person.

Well, it helped in the "off field landing" I was in after the motor quit and we bent up the airplane on landing.

It has also been a factor in a significant number of aircraft accidents in the skydiving world during the 30 years of your time in sport.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 9, 2012, 9:33 AM
Post #12 of 65 (2438 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
big difference between
"hey, we need to wear seatbelts on takeoff, you wanna buckle up?"

vs

"hey, HEY, HEY!!!! you - DUMBASS ... buckleup you shithead, you wanna KILL my passenger here? {mutter} what the hell is going on with all the stupid newbies lately"


I've seen it in action - and I know you have too


No difference to the FAA. In certain matters, yes you can 'catch more flies with honey', but in situations that pertain directly to the safety of others, and are governed by an FAR from the FAA, the way the message is delivered is of no consequence with regard to the action.

If the jumper in question wants to make it a personal issue with regards to the TI giving the instruction, that's their right, but choosing to not wear a seatbelt is not their right, and there's no way to argue against that.

That said, I do find it odd the details of the story. That it was a TI speaking to a fun jumper is what really surprises me. I know that if this was at a DZ where I was on staff and doing a working jump, I would not have been the one getting off the plane. As a staff memember conducting DZ business on a DZ aircraft, I would have offered the fun jumper the option of buckling up or getting off the plane, there's no way I would have gotten off the load, disappointed a customer and disturbed the workflow for the remainder of the day.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 9, 2012, 10:11 AM
Post #13 of 65 (2396 views)
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Re: [danornan] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think personally that the seat belt will help much in an accident, but it might keep the bodies from all ending up in one small spot. Maybe make it easier for the EMS to locate everyone or if it just a slight bump ( is that possible?) keep everyone from landing up on top of one person.

I'm pretty sure that in the Frontier Skydivers plane crash in 2010, the single fatality was the only person not strapped-in at impact.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Jan 9, 2012, 10:12 AM)


danornan  (D 11308)

Jan 9, 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #14 of 65 (2386 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

mea maxima culpa
mea maxima culpa
mea maxima culpa
mea maxima culpa

and a few hail mary's........

ok?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 9, 2012, 11:05 AM
Post #15 of 65 (2350 views)
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Re: [davelepka] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do find it odd the details of the story. That it was a TI speaking to a fun jumper is what really surprises me. I know that if this was at a DZ where I was on staff and doing a working jump, I would not have been the one getting off the plane. As a staff memember conducting DZ business on a DZ aircraft, I would have offered the fun jumper the option of buckling up or getting off the plane,

on a small plane like that, it seems like the pilot should have been the one to offer that exact option - the OP getting off doesn't protect the DZ or the pilot. Returning to the loading area did work in that the DZO enforced that rule which the pilot should have backed up.

on the rest - yes, I agree with you.

That said, I'll still contend, that style points help affect culture and, long term, fixes good habits in others much better than assholes rationalizing their crappy interpersonal skills under the label of 'tough love' or 'calling it like it is'. Again, you know the type of jumper I'm talking about - no matter how big or small the DZ, there's usually 1.

Back to the topic, the OP notes "She still doesn't wear the seatbelt" ------- this seems to confirmthe jumper remains the sole issue - and the pilot and DZO are complacent

1 - Seems the DZO and the Pilot have to address that with this jumper. And, unless she has a narrow waist and really big boobs,...... sorry, I digress

2 - In the meantime, the TM needs to continue to stick to his guns for himself, the pilot's license, and his passengers. Good for him



edit: of course, my tangent here is just that, tangential


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jan 9, 2012, 11:12 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 9, 2012, 11:37 AM
Post #16 of 65 (2325 views)
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Re: [danornan] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You would think that after turning the plane around a few times that either the DZO or the pilot would take action. $$$ generally speaks!

I don't think personally that the seat belt will help much in an accident, but it might keep the bodies from all ending up in one small spot. Maybe make it easier for the EMS to locate everyone or if it just a slight bump ( is that possible?) keep everyone from landing up on top of one person.

N141PV. Do the research.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 9, 2012, 11:42 AM
Post #17 of 65 (2318 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Would like to hear some input on a scenario I find unacceptable.
Ever get on a plane and there are person(s) who refuse to put on a seatbelt.
While taxi i ask, (Are you gonna put on your seat belt?) The reply was no.
I ask the pilot to let me out because i'm not takeing off in this plane unless everyone is wearing a seatbelt.
The pilot turns around taxis back to loading area.
I unfasten my tandem student and get out of the plane. The dz manager is there to investigate the problem. I explain.
he turns to the young lady fun jumper and tells her to put on her seat belt. She complies and we have an uneventful safe skydive.
In retrospect I could have just kept my mouth shut and sacrificed the safety of my student,myself and all other jumpers on the load.
Now I am disliked and considered to be the asshole who had the audacity,to insist that all jumpers comply with the most basic BSR.Seeking sugestions on how to handle this. She still doesn't wear the seatbelt. I can't fix stupid. or can I?

Considered an asshole by who, all the assholes?

You did exactly the right thing. You also demonstrated leadership. Never keep your mouth shut. When you do, THEY win and THEY are the assholes.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 9, 2012, 12:18 PM
Post #18 of 65 (2290 views)
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Re: [danornan] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry; didn't mean to pile-on. It was just the first thing that popped into my head when I read your post.


lowapproach  (C 38363)

Jan 9, 2012, 12:29 PM
Post #19 of 65 (2282 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

FAR 91.107 covers this (seatbelts, if equipped, must be worn during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing).

If ramp checked, the pilot is the one who would face the sanctions from the FAA with respect to his/her certificates. and even for things like out of date repacks.

Regardless of the safety aspect of seatbelts, you owe it to the pilot to let them know. You did the right thing.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Jan 9, 2012, 4:31 PM
Post #20 of 65 (2192 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
N141PV. Do the research.

Ditto N551CC

Contributing factor: failure to use seatbelts.

BSBD


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 10, 2012, 8:29 AM
Post #21 of 65 (2065 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
big difference between
"hey, we need to wear seatbelts on takeoff, you wanna buckle up?"

vs

"hey, HEY, HEY!!!! you - DUMBASS ... buckleup you shithead, you wanna KILL my passenger here? {mutter} what the hell is going on with all the stupid newbies lately"


I've seen it in action - and I know you have too

Yep...I've even used both approaches.

First the one, and if the message doesn't get through, then the other.

What cranks my shorts is those who refuse to "get the message" no matter how you put it to them. The girl here seems to be one of those bozos.

Bottom line in these cases, IMO, is the message...not the approach.

My bet is she's a long-time jumper.


joephus  (C 41172)

Jan 10, 2012, 9:09 AM
Post #22 of 65 (2054 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

You absolutely did the right thing, not only for your students safety but your DZs safety as well. With the recent lawsuit at spaceland people will do well to remember that unless everyone does their job 100% correctly those waivers students sign do not mean a thing. If the unthinkable had happened and your student was injured by someone not following FAA regulations it's would be a small task to get jurors to believe that the DZ cultivated an atmosphere of negligence and then you very well could be losing your entire DZ.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 10, 2012, 12:19 PM
Post #23 of 65 (1996 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm curious if this female jumper has given any reason or rational for not wanting to wear the belt? Aside from being a hassle/inconvenience, I don't see a downside to strapping in. Unsure Or, has this just turned into a Power & Control issue?

It seems to me, if this is just her being "pissy", she has picked a really bad battle to fight.


thrillstalker  (C 40678)

Jan 10, 2012, 12:42 PM
Post #24 of 65 (1980 views)
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Re: [skydvrvalco] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

i was at a boogie, there were some big white puffies but plenty of holes. one guy on the load said to the entire load, "if i can't see the ground, no one is getting out of this plane.

my favorite reply was, "if the pilot puts on the green light, you can get the fuck out of my way!"

that guy was a dick, you not so much


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jan 10, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #25 of 65 (1967 views)
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Re: [thrillstalker] seat belts [In reply to] Can't Post

again, the person with the most risk in that scenario is the pilot -

he'd have been better off voicing his concern to the pilot and letting the pilot decide about the entire load

after that, if the pilot thinks he can release under the rules (in his opinion, or under any waivers that the jumpers might not be aware of, or just because the pilot is a rule breaker, etc etc etc), each jumper should be able to choose for themselves - and each instructor for their students


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