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You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO)

 

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skydiverek  (C 952)

Jan 8, 2012, 5:29 AM
Post #1 of 49 (2699 views)
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You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) Can't Post

First watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsOL4AS5rcE

Should he wasted 9,000 ft, which he might have needed in case of reserve malfunction? What would you do if this happened to you, you did have a hook knife, and your exit weight was 200 lbs:
- on 100 foot canopy?
- on 200 foot canopy?


Hellis

Jan 8, 2012, 6:48 AM
Post #2 of 49 (2631 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you did have a hook knife,

You're not saying cuting a line would help do you?
You would just end up with a broken main canopy that you still have to cut away because you cut a suspensionline


kd5xb  (Student)

Jan 8, 2012, 7:15 AM
Post #3 of 49 (2597 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

Video shows a bad move.

Things which do you no good in aviation:
- Altitude above you.
- Runway behind you.
- Fuel in the truck.
- Half a second in history.
- Approach plates in the car.
- The airspeed you don't have.


superstu  (D License)

Jan 8, 2012, 7:16 AM
Post #4 of 49 (2592 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have done the exact same thing. Jumper in my opinion did a great job.


wildWilly  (B License)

Jan 8, 2012, 7:17 AM
Post #5 of 49 (2592 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have done what he did. Ride it down to an alt. where cutting away wouldn't result in losing my main and freebag.
He had a controllable but not a landable main.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jan 8, 2012, 8:55 AM
Post #6 of 49 (2540 views)
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Re: [superstu] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would have done the exact same thing. Jumper in my opinion did a great job.


What he said


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 8, 2012, 9:35 AM
Post #7 of 49 (2517 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In Reply To
I would have done the exact same thing. Jumper in my opinion did a great job.


What he said

Yup. I have done the exact same thing - flown the malfunction to a safe cuttaway location. Of course, I did this when I was sure I had sufficient altitude first. In my case, I didn't want the main landing on an expressway, so I made sure I was downwind of it first. I learned this lesson the expensive way when I once cutaway up high, only have my stuff land in a river and get lost.

Also, in this case there was little hope of fixing the malfunction. But, if you have altitude available, like on a 13,000 foot H&P, then spending some time trying to fix a malfunction is a reasonable choice too. I did this once on a spinning malfunction - I spent 4000 trying to get out of line twists, which I successfully accomplished. I could afford this time because I opened at 12,000 feet. I was under a good canopy by 8,000 feet.

The key point here is altitude awareness. It is absolutely required that if you're going to do this, you know where you are, where you need to be, and what you need to get done.

It's not something we train our students, but given the right person with the right experience, it's not always a bad choice.


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Jan 8, 2012, 10:35 AM
Post #8 of 49 (2476 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Video shows a bad move.
Attachments: cereal-guy-template.png (29.9 KB)


redramdriver  (C License)

Jan 8, 2012, 10:51 AM
Post #9 of 49 (2461 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

Did the same thing before....got to my hard deck and cut away. Canopy landed on the DZ, freebag on the runway (pilot picked up on way back to loading area), kept both handles. Packing error. Repack $50.00...experience...priceless.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 8, 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #10 of 49 (2414 views)
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Re: [kd5xb] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Video shows a bad move.

Things which do you no good in aviation:
- Altitude above you.
- Runway behind you.
- Fuel in the truck.
- Half a second in history.
- Approach plates in the car.
- The airspeed you don't have.

For you and Hellis if I may.

He was altitude aware the whole time, besides his statement to the fact, one can see in the video what looks like occasional checks of altitude.

First he tries to identify the problem, then remedy the situation.

He finds he can control it to some degree and then makes what appears to be several attempts to keep it level and straight, needed for landing (more or less).

He finds he can't and then makes his decision on when he will cut away the main and deploy his reserve.

True, one does not want to "waste" altitude, but he had plenty to use.

Maybe cutting the line helps or doesn't, one does not need ALL the suspension lines to have a fully functioning canopy, ask around.

True, he is at fault for the initial step through and it being packed that way, other than that he did an excellent job and we are discussing it and hopefully learning from it!

Matt


mirage62  (C 15580)

Jan 8, 2012, 12:36 PM
Post #11 of 49 (2390 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

Only looked at a bit of this, but being that high I might have considered stalling it to see if it would slide off but that could have mad it worse resulting in a higher cut away..........

I dont see anything wrong with the way he handled it.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Jan 8, 2012, 1:07 PM
Post #12 of 49 (2364 views)
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Re: [mirage62] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

It looks like he spiraled down and tried to catch his freebag with his feet. I don't think that was too smart.


Hellis

Jan 8, 2012, 1:18 PM
Post #13 of 49 (2353 views)
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Re: [matthewcline] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes a canopy *can* function without all lines.
Is it worth risking?
Cuting a suspension line will give you a new malfunction that by most or all standards should be cut away.

Relining a canopy is not cheaper than a repack, unless you only replace those few lines that you cut, but it will still be very close to the same price as a repack.
So should you cut the line because you don't trust the reserve?
In that case I think one should think about what they are doing.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Jan 8, 2012, 1:40 PM
Post #14 of 49 (2331 views)
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Re: [Hellis] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes a canopy *can* function without all lines.
Is it worth risking?
Cuting a suspension line will give you a new malfunction that by most or all standards should be cut away.

Relining a canopy is not cheaper than a repack, unless you only replace those few lines that you cut, but it will still be very close to the same price as a repack.
So should you cut the line because you don't trust the reserve?
In that case I think one should think about what they are doing.

Where are you getting your instruction from? Some of your views are a bit, misinformed.

Cutting the one line is not a new malfunction, just a new result of the same malfunction. If thought out, usually, means problem reduced/removed and it is safe to land.

The Canopy only needs a "few" lines to "function". In the end the design works BEST with ALL lines, but you can land with a few missing, many of use have.

One should never use money as motivation during a malfunction and EP's.

YES! On should always think about what they are doing! Just like the Jumper in the video did!

Matt
Matt


jakee  (C License)

Jan 8, 2012, 2:25 PM
Post #15 of 49 (2301 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

Why are you hung up on this wierd situational ethics of just because you're really high, it's unsafe not to use all the altitude you have?

Opening at 3k most people would have no qualms or objections about messing with some types of mal until 2k or less (sometimes significantly less). This guy stopped messing with his at 4k and that's somehow irresponsible just because he started off higher up. Why?

Do you open at altitudes that give you the opportunity to cutaway by 4k if needed? If the answer is no, then any mal you will ever have will be more risky than this guy's.


Austintxflight

Jan 8, 2012, 2:35 PM
Post #16 of 49 (2291 views)
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Re: [jakee] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing, this is at Eloy, there is nothing but desert for miles, no way he would have lost his canopy out there.

Might make sense in a different DZ, or one over water etc.

Nothing but open desert, cut away high get under a functional canopy as soon as possible


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jan 8, 2012, 2:36 PM
Post #17 of 49 (2291 views)
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Re: [Hellis] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes a canopy *can* function without all lines.
Is it worth risking?
Cuting a suspension line will give you a new malfunction that by most or all standards should be cut away.

Relining a canopy is not cheaper than a repack, unless you only replace those few lines that you cut, but it will still be very close to the same price as a repack.
So should you cut the line because you don't trust the reserve?
In that case I think one should think about what they are doing.

First off, nobody actually said he should cut the line (that I read - maybe I missed it). The question was asked. That's all.

And, what is the risk that you question the value of?

He's got a canopy he won't land. The questions are when to chop, and what to do in the meantime.

He has plenty of time to figure out which line might be cut. It it is a line that is not too terribly critical, cutting it might clear the problem, or it might make the canopy less difficult to control for the time remaining that he keeps it.

If he cuts it and it gets worse, he's still going to chop. In addition, he would/should be quite well prepared for what might happen if he cuts a line, so he's is no worse off for cutting, and possibly he is better off.

I am not suggesting he should have cut the line. He's on a likely highly loaded extremely high performance canopy, and that certainly is part of the whole decision process. But if he can determine exactly which line it is, and he decides that it might make things better, cutting it is an option. To be clear, when I say "which line it is", I mean AT THE CANOPY. It is quite clear from the video that there is one line involved, but it isn't immediately clear if it is a very critical line or a less critical line. Different lines have different effects on the flight of the canopy. Cutting the outermost "A" line probably won't help much, but if it is a "B" line, and a couple of cells inboard, maybe it doesn't make things worse to cut it. (My impression of the vid is that it was an "A" or a "B" line. If it was a "C" or a "D", and inboard, it may be even less critical.)

So, as a general statement, cutting a line is an option that is well worth considering on many or most canopies, if you have control, time, and altitude.

If one has as much control over a canopy as he had, and as much altitude as well, it is not a mistake to consider it.

Cutting or not cutting is not necessarily about not trusting the reserve.

It is about preserving as many options as possible for as long as is safely possible.

Maybe cutting the line still leaves the canopy unlandable. But even then, it might make the canopy more controllable between the time of the cut and the time of the chop. A more controllable canopy, or one that is less likely to do something terribly nasty when you do go to chop, may improve the chances of a clean reserve deployment.

Again, it is a matter of preserving (or maximizing) the available options. It isn't necessarily about not trusting the reserve.


wildcard451  (D License)

Jan 8, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #18 of 49 (2254 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

Wanna do a nice thought experiment?

Look at the jump numbers / experience of those saying that this jumper was stupid.

Look at the jump numbers / experience of those people saying he did a good job.

Then make your decision.

I'll add another vote to doing a good job. If he did go collect his freebag with his feet (I didn't watch that far) then I can't agree that was a good idea.
Riding it down? Hell yes.


0013  (B 93032)

Jan 8, 2012, 3:27 PM
Post #19 of 49 (2245 views)
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Re: [riggerpaul] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cutting the outermost "A" line probably won't help much, but if it is a "B" line, and a couple of cells inboard, maybe it doesn't make things worse to cut it. (My impression of the vid is that it was an "A" or a "B" line. If it was a "C" or a "D", and inboard, it may be even less critical.)

[fun fact] ... most peoples arms are not long enough to reach the canopies bottom skin. This makes them unable to cut only the A or B line.

Following logic this means we'll be cutting lines near the riser:
Cutting a line at the riser position means A+B or C+D for cascaded canopies. (except from the outer 2 D lines, wich a velo doesn't have)

Seeing the big PD logo on the bottom of the canopy i guess this wing does not have direct lines. [/fun fact]

Edited to add:

I believe I would have done the same thing: Riding it down to a position where material recovery is a bit more likely. I lost my main in the corn last year... Would hate to see that happen again!

4k is plenty for a safe chop in my opinion Also leaves the rest of the load time to land and chase your canopy! But : i do carry a hook-knife and if the line causing the malfunction was this clear i think i would have given that a chance, probably due to losing my gear with my last chop.


(This post was edited by 0013 on Jan 8, 2012, 3:35 PM)


jakee  (C License)

Jan 8, 2012, 3:38 PM
Post #20 of 49 (2235 views)
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Re: [Austintxflight] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Nothing but open desert, cut away high get under a functional canopy as soon as possible

If you consider the safety differential to be of lower importance than the possibility of a lost canopy, then the safety differential is neglible. Therefore, there is no problem with riding the mal down whether you are at risk of losing the canopy or not.

Obviously you're free to ride a mal to whatever height you want, but if you really think it's a safety concern you shouldn't let the cost of a main canopy and/or freebag override that.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 8, 2012, 4:26 PM
Post #21 of 49 (2198 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

>What would you do if this happened to you, you did have a hook knife,
>and your exit weight was 200 lbs:
>- on 100 foot canopy?
>- on 200 foot canopy?

On my Crossfire 109 I would mess with it until I determined what was wrong with it and that it was not fixable. (Which it wasn't in this case.) Then I'd cut it away. I would tend _not_ to release the brakes, because it was flying relatively straight to begin with, and it's safer to cut away from a canopy flying straight than a spinning one.

On a larger canopy it would depend on how it flew. With the problem shown in the video it would be very unlikely that I would try to either land it or cut the line. Cutting an outside A/B line doesn't generally help things.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 8, 2012, 4:52 PM
Post #22 of 49 (2174 views)
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Re: [mirage62] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Only looked at a bit of this, but being that high I might have considered stalling it to see if it would slide off but that could have mad it worse resulting in a higher cut away..........

The line over was lower on the lines, all of the stalling in the world wouldn't have helped. Bout the only way he could have gotten it out without cutting it was to flip his entire body thru the offending line.

I would probably have done the same thing, spot the canopy for a safe area and let it go there.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 8, 2012, 5:10 PM
Post #23 of 49 (2162 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

Worst thing in that video was trying to catch the freebag IMO, otherwise I didn't have any issue with it. I also wondered why he released the toggles but I guess he was just trying to see if he could resolve the problem before cutting which is reasonable IMO.


riggerpaul  (D 28098)

Jan 8, 2012, 5:20 PM
Post #24 of 49 (2152 views)
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Re: [0013] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Cutting the outermost "A" line probably won't help much, but if it is a "B" line, and a couple of cells inboard, maybe it doesn't make things worse to cut it. (My impression of the vid is that it was an "A" or a "B" line. If it was a "C" or a "D", and inboard, it may be even less critical.)

[fun fact] ... most peoples arms are not long enough to reach the canopies bottom skin. This makes them unable to cut only the A or B line.

Following logic this means we'll be cutting lines near the riser:
Cutting a line at the riser position means A+B or C+D for cascaded canopies. (except from the outer 2 D lines, wich a velo doesn't have)

Seeing the big PD logo on the bottom of the canopy i guess this wing does not have direct lines. [/fun fact]

Edited to add:

I believe I would have done the same thing: Riding it down to a position where material recovery is a bit more likely. I lost my main in the corn last year... Would hate to see that happen again!

4k is plenty for a safe chop in my opinion Also leaves the rest of the load time to land and chase your canopy! But : i do carry a hook-knife and if the line causing the malfunction was this clear i think i would have given that a chance, probably due to losing my gear with my last chop.

You got me there. My canopy has a CF lineset with direct lines.

But the point is still the same - depending on what you would need to cut, things could get better or worse. If it is a line that will make things better, cutting is an option. And another part of the point is to know what is being cut.

IIRC there are some HP canopies from Precision that have direct lines. So my statements hold for them.

Anyway, we are in complete agreement that riding it was fine to do in this case.


jclalor  (B 33202)

Jan 8, 2012, 5:29 PM
Post #25 of 49 (2137 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] You open at 13,000 ft and discover a mal. What next? (VIDEO) [In reply to] Can't Post

My first and only chop was almost identical. I always thought chopping would be in a higher speed situation and it really sucked spending 5 minutes trying to clear it and then having to cut away.


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