Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris.

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

JackC1

Dec 31, 2011, 9:30 AM
Post #26 of 70 (1225 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Couple it to an accurate altimeter and you could program it to warn you when you're diving too fast, too low

Too late. All I see that doing is going off while you hit the ground. It would be more of a bell or whistle telling you this is going to hurt.

If you programmed it wrong, that's exactly what it would do. But you could program it with any parameters you wanted. You could get it to fire off a 120dB siren and give you electric shocks if you happened to exceed a 5mph decent rate below 1000ft AGL if you wanted. Or something a bit less ridiculous.

But it's a valid criticism that getting the parameters right would be tricky, especially since a safe decent rate for a 20 jump guy under a Navigator 260 isn't quite the same as a 10,000 jump swooping champion under a Velo 84.

But even a bog standard Vario would give you an indication of how hard you were diving and when you had levelled off which might be useful training aid to some.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 31, 2011, 10:30 AM
Post #27 of 70 (1216 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JackC1] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Couple it to an accurate altimeter and you could program it to warn you when you're diving too fast, too low

Too late. All I see that doing is going off while you hit the ground. It would be more of a bell or whistle telling you this is going to hurt.

If you programmed it wrong, that's exactly what it would do. But you could program it with any parameters you wanted. You could get it to fire off a 120dB siren and give you electric shocks if you happened to exceed a 5mph decent rate below 1000ft AGL if you wanted. Or something a bit less ridiculous.

But it's a valid criticism that getting the parameters right would be tricky, especially since a safe decent rate for a 20 jump guy under a Navigator 260 isn't quite the same as a 10,000 jump swooping champion under a Velo 84.

But even a bog standard Vario would give you an indication of how hard you were diving and when you had levelled off which might be useful training aid to some.

I like you said training aid. Because it would still require coaching and understanding of flight characteristics of the canopy you were flying. I am all for the concept, I just think there are so many variables. All of which are trying to assist with experience, common sense, knowledge.

Then there is the thought that even if it were mastered, then would it be 100% relied upoun at all times? It is a mechanical device that would still need to be verified by altitude checks, and sight picture. that takes time and with the higher performance and higher loaded canopies time is the problem. Personally if my set up is improper and I take the extra few seconds to get wherre I need to be it is too late and I lost too much altitude. It would be an abort scenario. Which by the way I personally have no problem with. It is the ones that think they can just swing it around faster or yank the front riser a bit harder that wind up going too fast too low without the steering inputs to recover.

Canopy education I think goes hand in hand with this concept. That means making, yes making new jumpers receive continueing education in canopy training. We now have basic requirements. Why not advanced. Yes I know it opens up a can of worms, the who, what, where, how....but I think it may be time to man up and start to tackle them.

Perris and Elsinore just made statements that canopy pilots will have to demonstrate the ability to safely conduct a high performance landing. I am curious a) what are those standards going to be, b) Who will determine it, and will there be some type of internal rating system developed.

I have never been opposed to a canopy instructor rating, or attaching endorsements to licenses. Dont ask me to spell it out I havent put much thought into the process but spekaing out loud imagine if you needed an endorsement to fly a higher wing load. Similar to a pilot getting time on an aircraft under supervision and being signed off on.

Last paragraph is me thinking out loud so dont flame too hard please it is New Years and tomorrow we start at 0 incidents for the year.


(This post was edited by Para5-0 on Dec 31, 2011, 10:31 AM)


JackC1

Dec 31, 2011, 12:09 PM
Post #28 of 70 (1193 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Para5-0] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like you said training aid. Because it would still require coaching and understanding of flight characteristics of the canopy you were flying. I am all for the concept, I just think there are so many variables. All of which are trying to assist with experience, common sense, knowledge.

I totally agree. All the bells and whistles in the world won't stop someone hooking in if they fly like shit.

In reply to:
Then there is the thought that even if it were mastered, then would it be 100% relied upoun at all times?

A bog standard vario simply varies the pitch of the tone according to whether you are climbing, holding altitude or decending. The pitch goes up if you're ascending, beeps if you're holding altitude and goes down if you're descending. The more the tone goes down in pitch, the faster you are descending (and vice versa). At that, a vario could (under some circumstances) be useful aid for people getting trained in canopy flight. I'm not sure how you could rely on that to guide you through a perfect swoop, it would just be a dumb dive indicator. But I guess people will rely on all sorts of crap so who knows?

If you wanted to turn a vario into some kind of swoop-o-meter by having it give you some kind of warning when you dive too fast too low, then I'm not sure how that would need to be set up for each canopy type and wing loading (and all the other variables), or if it would even be useful. At the moment I don't see the swoop-o-meter idea as having much merit without a LOT of development and associated training. But a vario might just be useful, sometimes.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Dec 31, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #29 of 70 (1164 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rmarshall234] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

As a former competitive swooper, I am a big fan of using a visual digital altimeter as a tool to tell me how well I flew to my setup and what kind of turn I can make. I tried the audible altimeter as well but went away from them because no approach is the same and to rely on a "Beep" to tell you to start your swoop is just wrong (IMHO).

The digital altimeter told me what sort of turn I can do and what technique to use to get the canopy diving. And of course if you arrive at your setup point and you blew your approach or there is traffic, then you must abort the swoop, land the canopy safely, repack and try to not make the same mistake flying your setup the next time. But once you have initiated the dive, you need to rely on your eye sight and your spider senses to tell you when to initiate the recovery.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 31, 2011, 3:44 PM
Post #30 of 70 (1162 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rmarshall234] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A half-baked idea
In reply to:

Yep
but it might have merit.

In reply to:

Nope


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Dec 31, 2011, 7:09 PM
Post #31 of 70 (1132 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, I have no knowledge of that and defer to someone that does.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Dec 31, 2011, 7:25 PM
Post #32 of 70 (1128 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CanuckInUSA] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

>As a former competitive swooper..

Did you have anything to clue-you-in to what the atmospheric conditions were that day? And therefore, what adjustments to make? Or were you simply relying on your experience and eyeball to tell you this doesn't look right and therefore to bail.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Dec 31, 2011, 7:46 PM
Post #33 of 70 (1124 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rmarshall234] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did you have anything to clue-you-in to what the atmospheric conditions were that day? And therefore, what adjustments to make? Or were you simply relying on your experience and eyeball to tell you this doesn't look right and therefore to bail.

I paid attention to the winds prior to boarding the airplane on every load which would dictate how I would fly my approach to the setup point and I also made sure that my visual digital altimeter was always zeroed prior to loading. Once at the setup point prior to initiating the dive the digital altimeter always gave me valuable information such as the type of turn, the speed of the turn and whether I could initiate with double fronts on something less aggressive. But once you are in the dive it is all eye sight and spider senses. The hardest thing to learn was when to stop the turn, get off of the risers and initiate the recovery. That is where jump frequency and currency pay off. There isn't a competitive swooper alive who has not been in the corner at some point in time and as Stu has said "If you continue to swoop, sooner or later you will hit the ground". The question is how hard will you hit.

There just isn't enough time to let yourself be distracted by gadgets once you are in the dive. You need to be concentrating 100% of the time when you are diving towards the ground. Your life as well as the lives of the people on the ground who may be in your path depend on this concentration.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 31, 2011, 8:09 PM
Post #34 of 70 (1118 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rmarshall234] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Did you have anything to clue-you-in to what the atmospheric conditions were that day? And therefore, what adjustments to make? Or were you simply relying on your experience and eyeball to tell you this doesn't look right and therefore to bail.

Your mistake is in the basic understanding of a 'competitive' swoop under a modern wing.

For example, I can manage a 450 degree turn from as low as 550 or 600ft. I can also make it work from as high as 950 or 1000ft. Others could probably eat up even more altitude, I've just never tried. The point is that you don't just 'bail' on the turn, you might speed it up, you might whip it around and pop the rear risers to begin the turn recovery sooner, but you don't find out mid-turn that you just need to stop all together. Once you've flown a good set-up and cleared traffic, any adjustments made to the swoop due to atmospheric conditions are made 'on the fly'

Disclaimer - of course there are times you need to bail all together, but those would be due to things like unseen traffic or gear malfunctions. Sometimes you need to stop the swoop, but it's not due to a spike in the density altitude in the last hour or so.

Back to the topic at hand, the reason you can't have a swoop warning is that by the time any such device would go off, and the pilot would acknowledge and react, it would be too late. The margins are thin in swooping, and if you set the device to only go off when there is iminent danger, the warning will come too late. Every single one of the 'close calls' I've had in the last 1000 jumps was due to me getting distracted during the swoop and looking away. When I looked back, I was much lower and much further along than I expected, it all happens that fast.

This is the reason that people need to slow down, and realize that becoming a 'hot-shot' swooper is a 1000 jump project. Not 1000 jumps total, but 1000 swoops leading up to being a hot shot. 1000 less-than-impressive swoops, where the pilot demonstrates the maturity and self-control to remain well within their abilites, and take it one slow step at a time.

I was lucky. When I learned there were no cross-braced canopies, and nobody ever thought of doing more than a 180. I remember when I thought I was going to set the world on fire because I would go 20 or 30 degrees left, just before cranking my 180 to the right (then it was a 200 or 210) degreee turn. All of this was on a square-as-square-can-be Sabre 1. By the time the cross-braced canopies came out, and then people started to really 'work' them, I had 3000+ jumps with probably 2500 of them invloving some sort of front riser manuver for landing.

These days, the top end of the sport has rocketed up so far, that people gloss over the basics and the 'baby steps' you need to take to eventaully get there. Everyone is so focused on being one of the 'big dogs', and when they see how far they have to go, it becomes a 'rush, rush, rush' to get there.

Here's a fact - anything much more than a 90 or maybe a 180, and any WL much over 1.5 or 1.6 on any canopy should be reserved for expert canopy pilots. You should be better than 'good' at flying a parachute before you even think about any of the above. Sadly, most folks don't see it that way.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 31, 2011, 8:12 PM)


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 1, 2012, 9:41 AM
Post #35 of 70 (1050 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
All of this was on a square-as-square-can-be Sabre 1.

That's just crazy talk. You can't swoop a Sabre 1.
Wink


bofh  (D 13995)

Jan 2, 2012, 1:49 AM
Post #36 of 70 (990 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2) It might work as a "still safe" indicator - a device that took into account pressure altitude, rate of descent, airspeed (if possible) and attitude (if possible) and produced a tone indicating how close to the corner you were getting. As you were getting closer to the corner the pitch would increase, and when it was close to not recoverable the tone would cut off, indicating that you have to bail as quickly as possible.

My best swoops have been when I've been so deep into the corner that I could just recover with the rears. I don't like that at all since I am too inexperienced to know where the limit between deep and too-deep-for-rears are. If a magical device appeared that would know exactly where that limit was, I think plenty of people would use the device to reach that limit often and sometimes go past it, negating any safety it would bring. If the device was conservative, people would not always take its warning seriously when needed, just like people have gone for "just one more point" when the dytter has beeped.


bofh  (D 13995)

Jan 2, 2012, 1:59 AM
Post #37 of 70 (990 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CanuckInUSA] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a former competitive swooper, I am a big fan of using a visual digital altimeter as a tool to tell me how well I flew to my setup and what kind of turn I can make. I tried the audible altimeter as well but went away from them because no approach is the same and to rely on a "Beep" to tell you to start your swoop is just wrong (IMHO).

If there are more canopies in the air, I'm a big fan of the audible altimeter. With it people have the time to look around for the other canopies instead of just looking at their digital altimeters. Me and most of my experienced friends have seen plenty of people not looking at anything but their altimeter during the downwind and base flight. That is of course ok in competitions, but not so good when the landing order isn't set in advance...

I prefer listening to the beeps, making a control check with my digital altimeter and then having the seconds after the beeps as input to how much faster I should make my turn or abort if I miss the setup point.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jan 2, 2012, 4:52 AM
Post #38 of 70 (967 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bofh] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If there are more canopies in the air, I'm a big fan of the audible altimeter. With it people have the time to look around for the other canopies instead of just looking at their digital altimeters. Me and most of my experienced friends have seen plenty of people not looking at anything but their altimeter during the downwind and base flight. That is of course ok in competitions, but not so good when the landing order isn't set in advance...

I know not everyone is going to agree with me, but you and your friends should reconsider their attitude towards swooping on regular loads in the pattern with all the other traffic. I would be a hypocrite if I told you in the past I have never swooped in traffic. But that was before I changed my whole attitude towards swooping. Now of course "What is a swoop?" 99.99% of time when I swoop it is with a 270 pulling down on the front risers. But a swoop can also be a 90 or a 180 (heck when I was current and flying my JVX I didn't even need to touch my front risers to generate tons of speed, all I needed to do was lean into the harness and I am coming in faster than people under larger canopies pulling down on their risers). Swooping in traffic is like playing Russian roulette. Most of the time it works, but when it doesn't work, people can and do die.

Also don't think competition level swoopers only look at their altimeters flying to their setups. Competition level swoopers spend more time monitoring the skies than they do monitoring their altimeters. I don't turn at a specific altitude. I turn once I reach the point in the sky where I believe I can make the gates. The altimeter only tells me what kind of turn I can make once I arrive at the setup point. However it is absolutely imperative that competition swoopers provide separation between themselves and the other competitors and you can only do this by watching the skies.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2012, 10:28 AM
Post #39 of 70 (939 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bofh] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

>If there are more canopies in the air . . .

. . . then you shouldn't be swooping. We've had enough innocent skydivers killed by swoopers who thought they were in the clear.


bofh  (D 13995)

Jan 3, 2012, 1:27 AM
Post #40 of 70 (885 views)
Shortcut
Re: [billvon] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>If there are more canopies in the air . . .

. . . then you shouldn't be swooping. We've had enough innocent skydivers killed by swoopers who thought they were in the clear.

I don't agree when there are dedicated swooping areas, but swoopers should look out for people that have flown in to that airspace by misstake and people don't do that when they are fixated at their digital altimeters.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 3, 2012, 3:51 AM
Post #41 of 70 (873 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bofh] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My best swoops have been when I've been so deep into the corner that I could just recover with the rears.
Yikes!Shocked

In reply to:
I don't like that at all since I am too inexperienced to know where the limit between deep and too-deep-for-rears are.
In reply to:
Ahhhh. Relief.Smile

In reply to:
If a magical device appeared that would know exactly where that limit was, I think plenty of people would use the device to reach that limit often and sometimes go past it, negating any safety it would bring. If the device was conservative, people would not always take its warning seriously when needed, just like people have gone for "just one more point" when the dytter has beeped.
Other than the distraction element, therein lies the real problem. You nailed it.

Never discount human nature. Humans do stoopid shit. It's their nature.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 3, 2012, 4:38 AM
Post #42 of 70 (862 views)
Shortcut
Re: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it was mentioned earlier but couldn't the FlySight be configured to give this kind of feedback? The pitch and rate of beeps could give speed and decent and it would be constantly beeping so you'd know if it'd failed.

Just a thought.


bofh  (D 13995)

Jan 3, 2012, 6:39 AM
Post #43 of 70 (850 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CanuckInUSA] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know not everyone is going to agree with me, but you and your friends should reconsider their attitude towards swooping on regular loads in the pattern with all the other traffic.

We have dedicated swooping areas and it has worked out quite well this far. At our first DZ we separate it with the runway, at the other by the taxi area. It works a bit worse at the second DZ where people tend to fly into the edges of the swooping area in some winds. We also have more guest jumpers at that DZ that probably contributes a bit to it. We don't land downwind at that DZ to get more distance between us.

In reply to:
Also don't think competition level swoopers only look at their altimeters flying to their setups. Competition level swoopers spend more time monitoring the skies than they do monitoring their altimeters.

I agree, its non-competitors that are busy looking at the altimeter more than anything else. At competition (and serious practice) it is also much easier since you know the landing order and have fewer canopies in the air.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 3, 2012, 8:46 AM
Post #44 of 70 (840 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rmarshall234] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Parachute flying alarms for flare timing is the alarm it seems your going for. Maybe useful in the future if parachute flying ever becomes truly automated. In this era, flare timing is a trained visual experience. Flare timing is a judgement of the parachute pilot.
A parachute flying alarm system I'd like to have is for clearing airspace. One alarms when another flying object is within 2000', 1000', 500', 100', etc. Also useful for finding cutaway mains. Locator chip comes standard with each set of main risers.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2012, 9:17 AM
Post #45 of 70 (832 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bofh] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

>I don't agree when there are dedicated swooping areas . . .

Unfortunately the end result of that sort of arrangement is "no swooping, period." DZO's (and other skydivers) react poorly when their friends and customers are killed by someone else who was 100% sure he was clear.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jan 3, 2012, 9:43 AM
Post #46 of 70 (830 views)
Shortcut
Re: [danielcroft] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Cars have speedometers and will all ignore them.
Skydivers have altimeters and audibles and those get ignored sometimes.
AAD's...oops, forgot to set it.


Some bell or whistle to help you swoop, what happens when it doesn't function properly or isn't turned on?
What's next, visual slope indicators next to the pond?


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Jan 3, 2012, 4:47 PM
Post #47 of 70 (783 views)
Shortcut
Re: [grimmie] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

We're not going to "save" people who can't help themselves, I get that. We either get on the slippery slope of banning part of our sport or we look at ways to improve our tools and training to mitigate the risk as much as possible.

Fact is, it seems that the majority of swoop injuries in the recent past have been with more experienced jumpers, maybe a little beep in their ear could have made the difference? We all fight complacency, sometimes we lose.


kelpdiver  (B 7)

Jan 3, 2012, 6:15 PM
Post #48 of 70 (774 views)
Shortcut
Re: [davelepka] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Back to the topic at hand, the reason you can't have a swoop warning is that by the time any such device would go off, and the pilot would acknowledge and react, it would be too late. The margins are thin in swooping, and if you set the device to only go off when there is iminent danger, the warning will come too late. Every single one of the 'close calls' I've had in the last 1000 jumps was due to me getting distracted during the swoop and looking away. When I looked back, I was much lower and much further along than I expected, it all happens that fast.

this is my gut conclusion - for the experienced aggressor swooper, the margins are likely smaller than the predictive abilities of such a device. Can't have too many false positives before it just gets turned off. And if it is feasible, will the secondary consequences outweigh its usefulness? One person's reflexes are faster than another, and the same person's reflexes vary based on amount of sleep, food, fatigue.

But if Canuck is finding useful data from existing visual altimiters, it does seem worthy of an experiment. I earlier suggested a grad student, perhaps an EE type. In my mind, it would be unethical to test right away with a prototype; instead it should just be a black box that records the flight data and silently decides when it thinks the dive is going south. When someone like Dave notes it was a 'close call,' he would detail his recollection and the engineer can compare to what the device thought of it. This gets you a baseline for accurate and false positives and indicates the potential of the end product.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 3, 2012, 7:59 PM
Post #49 of 70 (762 views)
Shortcut
Re: [All] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are lots of things that wouldn't/couldn't make this work and none of them are the technology.

My opinion is that the pilot should be 100% focused on the task at hand. When we're higher (1000 feet range) visual and audible devices give us a sense for the type of turn and rotation speed we're going to be using. Once the process starts the pilots attention shifts, significantly, to observing as much as possible to whats happening around them and this heightens as they get lower.

When you're finishing up your turn, the last thing you need to be is distracted by some device - regardless of how accurate it is.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jan 3, 2012, 7:59 PM)


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jan 3, 2012, 8:05 PM
Post #50 of 70 (756 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ianmdrennan] Swoop indicators - Was: fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

My worry would be that a lot of jumpers would take up swooping, feeling safe that an audible will keep them from pounding in.


First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)