Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Better poll for swoopers

 


Poll: Better poll for swoopers
Been to the emergency room  10 / 18%
Have not 46 / 82%
56 total votes
 
catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jan 1, 2012, 8:55 PM
Post #1 of 15 (1330 views)
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Better poll for swoopers Can't Post

How many people that really swoop, not double front speed induced landings, have not had a trip to the hospital? I have been around long enough to hear and see the saying "if your going to swoop you will hit the ground and let's hope you get broke not dead" so is it true or a myth? And if it is a myth why all the hub bub about swooping? Is there just some secret vendetta being perpetrated on swoopers?

I'm asking because I want to know if my perception and that of those that have and are considering banning 270's,180's and even "swooping" in general are wrong?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 1, 2012, 9:20 PM
Post #2 of 15 (1291 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

A better attempt at a poll but there are still some serious issues with it.

So, first I'll give my "ER" stories. 2 trips, broken ankle and broken leg. Both at around 5mph WELL AFTER the fast part of the swoop. Neither I would consider "Swoop ER visit".

To the poll: The first part of the problem is that you can't limit what a swoop is. The reality is it is ANYTHING you do to pitch towards the ground (therefore speed) and use that energy low to the ground. I've seen some REALLY bad accidents from minor front riser inputs (totally destroyed ankles) to major impacts involving death, and other major impacts having nothing but a bruised ego.

Anecdotal stuff aside - pushing the envelope, like all things, is largely subjective to time spent practicing and learning (or perspective). For example, if I go and buy a GXS 1000, take it to the track and race it as hard as I can - I'm very likely going to get hurt. Really hurt, or dead. Now, if a Moto GP champ takes the same bike, he'll have far less likely hood of injury or death (Although the possibility always remains) and will also very likely consider the bike "slow" or "easy" by comparison to their competition bike. BOTH riders will likely fall at some time. The difference being that, most of the time, the more experienced rider will identify the situation early, respond in a way that minimizes damage, and likely come away with minimal injury.

This, like all things, can be applied to any "riskier" activity in life - and that includes skydiving.

So to answer your poll: I swoop hard, as hard as I can, and that means I'm pushing my envelope. I do everything I can to have safe training/competition environment, starting before I even get on the plane - it doesn't mean everyone else is doing the same (and it also doesn't mean I can't make a mistake - just ilke anyone else who's died skydiving).

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jan 1, 2012, 10:00 PM)


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 1, 2012, 9:45 PM
Post #3 of 15 (1264 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

Been to the ER twice, both times ended up being sprained ankles. Neither was swoop related.

I fly a highly loaded velo and have 2500+ jumps

I may be naive, but i believe swooping can be done without trauma, but it requires the right person and the right mindset.

_Am


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jan 1, 2012, 9:47 PM
Post #4 of 15 (1262 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

I am a former competitive swooper (mostly CPC comps, but I did compete in three PST events back in 2006). In 2010 I decided to sell my JVX 87 because I was unable to stay as current as one needs to be to be flying such a high performance pocket rocket. I have not heard of anyone dying under a JVX 87 so it looks like I did find a qualified buyer. When I was current, I used to push myself hard and pushed myself to my limits all the time just as hard in practice as I did in competition. I have been in the corner, I have had my close calls. Not counting zone accuracy (which is a full contact sport), I did hit the ground fairly hard once in a competition when I made the mistake of thinking I could fly the entire way through the curved speed course on rear risers. My wing stalled and I landed on my ass rather hard. But I was not hospitalized and that "knock on wood" was the worst that has ever happened to me, I learned my lesson and vowed never to try and make it through the curved speed course again flying only my rears. Tongue

I think you have misunderstood what people meant when they said "You will hit the ground". Yes sometimes people hit hard enough to kill or hospitalize themselves. But most of the time it is not as dramatic. We brush ourselves off, sometimes we skip the rest of the day to reflect upon our mistake and then we get back on the horse when we are ready. Swooping is not safe, but you really need to be a swooper (someone who is willing to give up freefall) to understand why swoopers do what they do.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 2, 2012, 5:06 AM
Post #5 of 15 (1159 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How many people that really swoop, not double front speed induced landings, have not had a trip to the hospital?

My guess would be "thousands".


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jan 2, 2012, 9:47 AM
Post #6 of 15 (1063 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

So if that's the case then why the banning of big turns and now the banning of "swooping"? I'm looking for education as Dan BC and Bryan Burke know way more then I ever will and it seems they see a problem but you guys don't.


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Jan 2, 2012, 10:11 AM
Post #7 of 15 (1038 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

With the unfortunate fatal "non-swooping" accident yesterday at Z-Hills maybe we should just ban skydiving. I mean if a skydiving ban only saves one life (of course it will save more than one life), it will all be worth it right. Wait ... that would mean nobody would ever be able to jump anymore. How about we ban low cut-aways. Or better yet why don't we ban malfunctions. If we banned malfunctions we could all jump in bliss knowing nothing would ever go wrong. Except for those evil swoopers who want to destroy skydiving. They are all going to die. You even said it yourself here yesterday. With your wisdom towards skydiving, you told us if you swoop you will die. Actually if you want to be more accurate, if you live on this planet, one day you will die. Maybe we should just ban death?

Swooping is not a crime ... at least not yet. Crazy


f94sbu  (D 16017)

Jan 2, 2012, 10:19 AM
Post #8 of 15 (1024 views)
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Re: [CanuckInUSA] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With the unfortunate fatal "non-swooping" accident yesterday at Z-Hills maybe we should just ban skydiving. I mean if a skydiving ban only saves one life (of course it will save more than one life), it will all be worth it right. Wait ... that would mean nobody would ever be able to jump anymore. How about we ban low cut-aways. Or better yet why don't we ban malfunctions. If we banned malfunctions we could all jump in bliss knowing nothing would ever go wrong. Except for those evil swoopers who want to destroy skydiving. They are all going to die. You even said it yourself here yesterday. With your wisdom towards skydiving, you told us if you swoop you will die. Actually if you want to be more accurate, if you live on this planet, one day you will die. Maybe we should just ban death?

Swooping is not a crime ... at least not yet. Crazy
+1


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 2, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #9 of 15 (998 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So if that's the case then why the banning of big turns and now the banning of "swooping"? I'm looking for education as Dan BC and Bryan Burke know way more then I ever will and it seems they see a problem but you guys don't.

Oh we see the problem, and you have demonstrated your wish for a one-track solution - banning swooping. You have yet to address the fact that swooping is only one of many skydiving disciplines that carry higher risks like wingsuiting and CRW. You want to ban those next?

I remember when freeflying first became popular there were numerous incidents involving freefall collisions and there was talk by some of just banning the activity altogether. Instead freeflyers learned and then taught techniques to others to minimize that possibility and today we see very few incidents involving body to body freefall collisions between freeflyers.

We go through learning curves in this sport and people get hurt and killed teaching the rest of us the lessons. That hasn't changed since the very beginning and probably never will.

You can keep whining to stop the carnage all you want, but the groundswell you are advocating just won't happen.

Swooping is here to stay as long as swooping canopies are made available.

By the way, why not aim your anti-swoop gun at the folks who make hp canopies? After all, if we couldn't get our derelict little hands on them we wouldn't have this problem to begin with would we?

Performance Designs (386) 738-2224. Ask for Bill or John. Demand they pull all the hp stuff from the shelves. See how far you get.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jan 2, 2012, 1:08 PM
Post #10 of 15 (988 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

I have Zero ability to effect anything on anyone's dropzone. As for what you have read (read into) my posts is nothing more then Internet banter. And Canuck I did no say you would die I said if you allow swooping you will most Definatly have death and or destruction on you DZ the two are not the same.

The point is you guys are arguing to keep swooping and two of the biggest drop ones have banned or limited the activity. Maybe you should argue with them and not me :)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 2, 2012, 1:59 PM
Post #11 of 15 (979 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe you should argue with them and not me :)

I could care less what they do. I don't jump at Perris or SDAZ.

And ya might want to get your facts straight if you intend to continue your campaign. Skydive AZ does not have a ban on swooping, only a requirement that they be done on solo jumps.Wink


f94sbu  (D 16017)

Jan 2, 2012, 2:35 PM
Post #12 of 15 (962 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

This is what you said "Not the same. Skydiving MAY result in serious injury or death. Swooping is a guarantee.. "

Which most people would interpret as:
If I skydive I might die.
If I swoop, I am guaranteed to die.

We have far more swoopers than deadly accidents, that by itself should prove that you are wrong. Besides, statistically, swooping related accidents are not really dominant in the incident reports, still some people are trying to paint the devil on the wall, referring to numbers that dont support their cause.

I know many DZ's that have not had any swooping related deaths, but deaths caused by other reasons. Your argument sais that the data is not true. Don't know how you can argue against reality.

It is true that incidents under canopy are dominant, but what the heck, isn't that expected giving our focus on AAD's, freefall education, limitations on who can jump with who etc. After all, we have been able to lower the incident rate quite a lot the last 20 years, but there is a limit to how safe you can make something that is inherently unsafe and attracts people that are willing(or attracted to) to take a certain risk.
When people died from no-pulls, did we ban skydiving or did we address the problem? Today, the incident rate is way lower than it was years ago and isn't it time that we accept the fact that skydiving is subject to some risk. Instead of banning every risky activity, we could focus on educating people to make sure that no one dies unknowing of the risk that they take.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jan 2, 2012, 4:39 PM
Post #13 of 15 (915 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

Campaign? I'm not running for anything :) bored is more like it.Wink none of this banter makes a difference to anyone but it is entertaining to watch folks get their panties in a twist about an opinion on the Internet even if that opinion may or may not be factul. If you believe swooping is good for the financial welfare for a DZ then call BC posting here won't help your cause and trying to attack or change my opinion
Is futile as I havent shared it yet Angelic


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 2, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #14 of 15 (898 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Campaign? I'm not running for anything :) bored is more like it.Wink none of this banter makes a difference to anyone but it is entertaining to watch folks get their panties in a twist about an opinion on the Internet even if that opinion may or may not be factul. If you believe swooping is good for the financial welfare for a DZ then call BC posting here won't help your cause and trying to attack or change my opinion
Is futile as I havent shared it yet Angelic

Oh I see, you're trolling for conflict. I guess beyond others telling you what they think about that, this will be the last of anyone giving you the time to respond to your irreverent "banter".

I for one certainly won't.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Jan 3, 2012, 9:57 AM
Post #15 of 15 (811 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Better poll for swoopers [In reply to] Can't Post

I for 1 am pretty stoked to have Dan B.C., Brian Burke, the folks at Elsinore, Chuck Akers, among many other skydiving ambassadors still around helping us jumpers make skydiving a repeatable activity. Day to day. Perris is my home dz. Whether policies Dan B.C. Implements at Perris work or not. I'm following the policies. As far as I can tell so far. Skydiving is still dangerous as it was prior to policy changes. With the diamond shaped pond at Perris, I've done pond swoops on regular loads there fanatically over the years. My ratio for crashing (even the slightest bit resulting in environment on my jumpsuit) is about 1 out of 100. For me that's about as good as it's ever gotten. Some years ago I thanked Dan B.C. for having a pond with water for me to swoop, because I'm gonna use it as a decelerator. He kinda laughed. I've urged other swoopers and wannabees to take their game to the pond so when they crash their chances of walking away i feel increase dramatically compared to dialing in hookturns over hard ground. Then the excuses, don't wanna get wet, don't want to walk, don't wanna get the feetsies dirty. If anything has got my undies in a wad is that Mr. Mike Ungar
apparently flew his parachute into the water and died. I could do that. With limited info I have, it seems that I will not die as Mr.Ungar has even if I swoop the pond or ground. I think my control inputs in those moments would have a different reaction, I could be wrong. To create enough energy to impact the water hard enough to die for a healthy parachute pilot means major control input. Unless there is gear failure, miss judging flare timing, or a collision of some sort. Have already overcome the fear of dropping a toggle with training in case it happens I have a reaction to use to save my ass if the need arises.



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