Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily

 


jjudd  (D 31065)

Dec 30, 2011, 7:26 PM
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Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily Can't Post

Thoughts and opinions everyone?

Even the best of the best take their spills from time to time whether on the speed course as we see occasionally in comps or just on a botched landing and we all could be seriously injured potentially but it is a risk we assume swooping and every jump we make in general furthermore

Separating canopy traffic by having swoopers at separate landing area, ie the pond or specified area was needed and furthermore always necessary though not enforced everywhere


Perris did good after the recent collisions last year by banning all turns greater than 90 to only hop n pops only and all high performance landings to the pond area period but banning swooping all together seems extreme

Its not just swoopers who can end up low, a low 90 on final can be just as bad as the recent incident which still sounds like an issue after the turn was ending at an adequate height whether it was a gear failure or dropped toggle.

So other question that comes to mind is are they just allowing people to fly straight in now using flat turns to make their base and final turns? as a 90 though not a huge turn is still a high performance landing/swoop when done the way that most of us that do high performance landing make a 90 in the main. All flat turns would be the only true way to make a legitimate pattern with everyone turning at the correct altitudes and it would also eliminate low turns, but people will still hurt themselves with late flaring etc.

Sorry for the long post but a lot of thought goes into what we consider a proper pattern vs how the pattern actually goes but that is off topic anyhow.

So thoughts??


CanuckInUSA  (D 26396)

Dec 30, 2011, 7:29 PM
Post #2 of 12 (2281 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

Swooping is NOT a crime. At least it's not one yet. Unsure


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Dec 30, 2011, 8:02 PM
Post #3 of 12 (2264 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

No need to get excited.

1) We're reading a press article, and info can be incorrect/misleading
2) If the information IS accurate it's a TEMPORARY ban until they've had a chance to evaluate their process/procedures and if there's something they, as a dz, can do to minimize risks.

They've had a really bad year, unfortunately, give them time to get their bearings.

Ian


jjudd  (D 31065)

Dec 30, 2011, 8:11 PM
Post #4 of 12 (2254 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

Well put!

All for that and I understand change until the incident has been evaluated and understood. A shame to see it as a result of this incident that seems as though it was unpreventable the way it occurred. I'm all for proper training as it surely saved my life when I started to learn to swoop and will as training never ends until your out of the sport

None the less we are at a point of change in this part of the sport and the future is always brighter


(This post was edited by jjudd on Dec 30, 2011, 8:16 PM)


5.samadhi

Dec 31, 2011, 8:05 AM
Post #5 of 12 (2161 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

if only somebody would build a 1000 foot tower with a ground launch ramp then swoopers wouldnt even need airplanes Laugh

i think towers like that cost like 100 grand not a bad investment.

you could also sell tickets to people to base jump...might as well make it two thousand feet at that point!Sly


Deisel  (D 31661)

Dec 31, 2011, 6:36 PM
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Re: [jjudd] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

My thought is "what are swoopers doing to preserve their sport?"
I know that a bunch of guys already take the lead and teach/mentor but it is not working. What now?


jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 1, 2012, 12:15 AM
Post #7 of 12 (2031 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

The competitive end of swoopers are holding up their end as are the majority of the competitions where all of us amateur competitors are showing our faces and trying to move forward and better ourselves.


Training is available and abundant in most areas and in areas of remoteness where no ones swooping how would you learn without visiting and training where people do.

No one swooper professional or amateur can make someone take a course. The issue lies within USPA and DZO's to require courses and enforce it by banning or grounding people until they meet the requirements. It will only work when they enforce these actions as a group/team and only as such. Otherwise the guy that wants to swoop goes to the next dz and so forth

The call for action is already there and USPA is starting the ground work. We will see a change gradually but not as rapid as people will hope for. The DZO's and STA's like a city police department need to all join their forces and enforce as a group what they want to have happen instead of saying hey dont do that again, as how often is the DZO or STA actually down watching peoples patterns?


jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 1, 2012, 12:19 AM
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Re: [jjudd] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

And how often do all the dzo's meet sit down and discuss issues at hand? I don't know the answer there but if they do the team effort application and enforcement isn't happening when they're back home


danornan  (D 11308)

Jan 1, 2012, 6:31 AM
Post #9 of 12 (1952 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that the majority of skydivers want swooping banned, but I do think that they would like to see it separated from the landing pattern of the typical drop zone.

I don't swoop, open low and I don't base jump. I think that there are a lot of similarities in all three. I'm not against them either. I think that that swooping is a lot like base jumping and low pulls though. Education has probably lowered the incidents of them.

I just don't want to have to worry about getting cut off in the landing pattern by someone who has decided to do a hook turn or swoop, even if they have cleared their air.

The activities need to be separated. Education will help in lowering the fatalities and accidents, but they will continue, just at a lower rate.


Ron

Jan 1, 2012, 6:48 AM
Post #10 of 12 (1950 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

I look at this issue and I am reminded of crw.... Give me a second to explain why.

When I started skydiving in the early 90's the most popular canopy's were still F111 7 cells. It was very common to do an RW jump and pull a little higher to put together a 2 stack, maybe turn that into a down plane. Heck, some of my buddie even had a hand signal that was read as "This sucks, let's do crw".

Then some serious advancements came out and became popular, canopy's designed for crw. These things were so much better for crw and some amazing records were created, like a 100 way diamond. This would have never happened with Raven II's.

But, this also came with a problem.... These new crw canopy's were not very good for RW. They normally opened REALLY fast and only those with iron spines braved taking them to terminal. And more modern zp canopy's are not good for crw at all either.

Basically, crw dives became crw dives with no RW and RW dives didn't end in crw.

Now, what does this have to do with swooping? Well, I think we have reached a point where swooping canopy's are so much more advanced than normal canopy's and the techniques used are so different.... That it might be time for swooping to become truly its own sport.

We need to separate the two, and I mean totally separate. I talked to the owners of my DZ about creating a "swoopers paradise" a pond, staked swoop lanes, soft obstacles, ribbons to swoop over/under/over AND under.... Basically create an area that would allow a swooper to do just about anything he could think of. To jump in this area, you had to show you had the needed skills and were only allowed to do a hop n pop, no RW then swoop.

We have gotten to the point that doing an RW jump and then getting a killer swoop is over.

I kept hoping that the canopy's would advance enough to do this on its own, but snoopers have shown that they are pretty damn adaptable. RDS systems for example.


(This post was edited by Ron on Jan 1, 2012, 6:51 AM)


jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 1, 2012, 11:55 PM
Post #11 of 12 (1802 views)
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Re: [Ron] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your thoughts! Yep no doubt were adaptable Cool

If traffic is separated to different areas the issue of collisions is eliminated and the two should be able to exist in harmony but that's in a perfect world where no one cuts across the pond and runway to get back to the main because they dont want to walk. And they guy that got the long spot lands out vs against the pattern to make it closer etc... u get the point

But still the lack of people considering a double fronts to a 90 not a swoop baffles me, as much as i'm in favor of being able to do it it conflicts with the general pattern as much as trying to sneak a 270 in because you have air space, everythings dynamic and there are always the possibility of unseen pilots below and traffic as we have proven with collisions

And the DZ's still allowing crazy patterns shame on them. A 90 in the main is still a much better improvement and will take time to change, should it as it can be done much safer? beyond me but to truly follow the pattern everyone would be doing flat turns at 600 and 300 and landing straight in. We all manipulate the true rules to fit our needs.

I tend to just stay at the pond so that eliminates a good amount of that traffic and risks.

The best we can do until things are enforced is just watch out for our selves and others and keep the traffic separated to the best of our ability


And to stay on topic swooping when separated I feel is safe and doesn't need to be by hp only instead of a regular jump. But by hey im landing at the pond (designated hp landing area and communication) so other swoopers can communicate with each other and so others know they best not be over the pond unless they are planning on swooping which they shouldnt anyway but a reminder never hurts


jjudd  (D 31065)

Jan 2, 2012, 12:01 AM
Post #12 of 12 (1797 views)
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Re: [danornan] Swooping Banned At Perris Temporarily [In reply to] Can't Post

Id say yeah your 100% right danoran it should be separated and is supposed to be separated. If its not where you jump its time to complain to the dz where ur jumping or go to a safer place. You shouldn't have to worry about being taken out but dont forget that it can happen in a regular pattern too. Be aware of your surroundings and watch out for yourself and others


Good luck at your dz hope it goes well with the landing situation


(This post was edited by jjudd on Jan 2, 2012, 12:15 AM)



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