Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality - Perris, California - 27 - December 2011

 

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SStewart  (D 10405)

Dec 30, 2011, 12:43 AM
Post #51 of 215 (2345 views)
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Re: [Para5-0] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
He may have dropped a toggle,

Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody "drops a toggle"
That is just a lame excuse used because they don't want to admit they fucked up.

OOPS, I dropped my toggle, not my fault. It was the toggles fault. Those slippery things just fly out of your hand on final approach.

Funny thing is those toggles are still in their hands when they bounce.


loltron

Dec 30, 2011, 2:35 AM
Post #52 of 215 (2307 views)
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Re: [SStewart] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

For anyone actually interested in this incident, instead of some abstract pissing contest - after talking to a few people it sounds like Mike dug out too low. The end of his flare was apparently uneven, but regardless it sounds like he was too low anyway.

This is third hand from a few different people, but it sounds like he was just too low. I'd love to hear from more people who were there and have information about this incident rather than a bunch of people speaking in general terms about swooping, altimeters, and whatever else comes to mind while they write long, rambling posts.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 30, 2011, 6:23 AM
Post #53 of 215 (2227 views)
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Re: [loltron] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

 The point of the thread is to discuss such incidents, through such discussions solutions to problems can be posed and thrown around. This is not an isolated incident.

An idea has just been thrown into the ring, for what its worth, and that has to be a good thing. People are thinking, and the more that do that increases the awareness of problems at the least, if not solving the problem.

Problems are not solved easily at times, and not discussing things doesn't make it easier.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Dec 30, 2011, 6:34 AM
Post #54 of 215 (2219 views)
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Re: [SStewart] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

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Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody "drops a toggle"
That is just a lame excuse used because they don't want to admit they fucked up.

While it appears dropped toggles are entirely unrelated to this incident you are simply wrong. It's rare, but people do drop toggles. Sometimes they get hurt and sometimes they're in a position where they can recover (i.e. rears and not in the corner or enough time to pick back up again).

I've landed with my brake line in my hand because I dropped a toggle before. Quickly reached up, missed the toggle but just grabbed the line.

It's a mechanical thing, and a grip thing. If the riser pressure builds too much and it 'explodes' out of your hand you're likely to open your hands unintentionaly. Add to this poor riser grip (using 4 fingers for example) and it's very easy to have happen.

Ian


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 30, 2011, 6:41 AM
Post #55 of 215 (2211 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a mechanical thing, and a grip thing. If the riser pressure builds too much and it 'explodes' out of your hand you're likely to open your hands unintentional. Add to this poor riser grip (using 4 fingers for example) and it's very easy to have happen.

In reply to:

Also unrelated to 'this' fatality, but I lost a good friend some years back when the brake line came off at the toggle.

If nothing else it instilled a gear maintenance/awareness in me that has proven quite valuable, it also made ME re-think the 'way' I grip my toggles.


Ron

Dec 30, 2011, 6:55 AM
Post #56 of 215 (2194 views)
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Re: [SStewart] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody "drops a toggle"

Untrue, I have seen it happen. Not saying that some do not use it as an excuse, but it does happen from time to time.


Ron

Dec 30, 2011, 6:59 AM
Post #57 of 215 (2187 views)
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Re: [stayhigh] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

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I think it is also kinda wrong to see someone with thousands of jumps and they are still jumping something too big

Ah, this is a screaming example of the wrong type of thinking. It reminds me of this time that a young hotshot jumper walked up and asked a World Champion, " Why do you have a Stiletto instead of a velo? Do you think you can't handle it?"

There is no such thing as "too big" except when we are talking about ego's.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Dec 30, 2011, 7:36 AM
Post #58 of 215 (2158 views)
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Re: [loltron] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
after talking to a few people it sounds like Mike dug out too low. The end of his flare was apparently uneven, but regardless it sounds like he was too low anyway.

This is third hand from a few different people, but it sounds like he was just too low.

Thanks for posting that info. Although the jumper may have already made a few jumps that day, it was their first day at Perris. It sounds like another case of someone 'going too big at a new DZ'. And by that I DON'T mean canopy size.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 30, 2011, 8:03 AM
Post #59 of 215 (2119 views)
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Re: [Ron] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody "drops a toggle"

Untrue, I have seen it happen. Not saying that some do not use it as an excuse, but it does happen from time to time.
All true but the point was dropping a toggle is the fault of the jumper and, as you say, some, some use it as an excuse instead of a man-up "I screwed the pooch.". Loose and/or improper grips....YOU drop it. Ergo, YOUR fault.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 30, 2011, 8:05 AM
Post #60 of 215 (2118 views)
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Re: [Ron] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I think it is also kinda wrong to see someone with thousands of jumps and they are still jumping something too big

Ah, this is a screaming example of the wrong type of thinking. It reminds me of this time that a young hotshot jumper walked up and asked a World Champion, " Why do you have a Stiletto instead of a velo? Do you think you can't handle it?"

There is no such thing as "too big" except when we are talking about ego's.

UnsureUnsure
Unfortunately, we are going to have that (his) attitude perpetuated forever and forever. It's a constant battle.


Ron

Dec 30, 2011, 8:35 AM
Post #61 of 215 (2085 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

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All true but the point was dropping a toggle is the fault of the jumper and, as you say, some, some use it as an excuse instead of a man-up "I screwed the pooch.". Loose and/or improper grips....YOU drop it. Ergo, YOUR fault.

All true. But the same can be said of almost any accident. I read a really good accident paper years ago tday said that every accident was due to someone's error in judgement. And it is true in every case I can think of. From a guy hooking it in to a wing falling off an airplane.... Someone screwed up.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 30, 2011, 8:44 AM
Post #62 of 215 (2074 views)
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Re: [SStewart] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
He may have dropped a toggle,

Are you fucking kidding me? Nobody "drops a toggle"
That is just a lame excuse used because they don't want to admit they fucked up.

OOPS, I dropped my toggle, not my fault. It was the toggles fault. Those slippery things just fly out of your hand on final approach.

Funny thing is those toggles are still in their hands when they bounce.

We both know what you're (pathetically) aiming at, but there is quite a difference between "I dropped a toggle" and "the toggle slipped out of my hand."

What's "lame" (or cowardly) is that you're using someone else' incident to perpetuate a personal hate.Crazy

"I lost my toggle" and "I dropped a toggle" seem to indicate the jumper is taking responsibility for his error (identical to saying "I fucked up.")

And we don't know that is or isn't what happened at Perris.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

Dec 30, 2011, 9:00 AM
Post #63 of 215 (2050 views)
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Re: [SStewart] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
By the way, the closest eye witness report of this fatality (an accomplished swooper and canopy coach)stated that his swoop was not too low and looked good until the very last second. At that point he did something odd.

I am definatley not making any excuse, I was just replying to the above post/observation.

Although I watched a video guy friend of mine drop a toggle and I ended up signing the cast on his right ankle. It easily could have been a fatality, he was lucky. He hit very hard.


DaVinciflies

Dec 30, 2011, 9:26 AM
Post #64 of 215 (2011 views)
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Re: [loltron] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For anyone actually interested in this incident, instead of some abstract pissing contest - after talking to a few people it sounds like Mike dug out too low. The end of his flare was apparently uneven, but regardless it sounds like he was too low anyway.

In other words he got in the corner and failed to recover early/effectively enough?

The lessons for that would be:

1. Stay out of the corner
2. Know how to bail

Both of these have been covered numerous times and they are still catching people out. These are some of the first things jumpers should know before attempting HP flight. They are skills that take many jumps to perfect, and must be re-learned for every canopy.

Big, big shame.


marx597  (D 1042)

Dec 30, 2011, 9:58 AM
Post #65 of 215 (1975 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Lots of different things being said up here. Maybe this will clear it up a bit.
I only saw the end of his swoop (I was in the packing area) but this is what I saw. I only saw him coming out of his turn (he did a 270) and it looked clean and he was plenty high (Mike's a conservative guy, always coming out on the higher side, never see him digging out with his toggles) and then something caused his canopy to dive right.
A lot of people are arguing about a dropped toggle, and that could explain what i saw, but again we will probably never know.
Someone asked if he landed in the pond, he did, it was also determined by the coroner that he died on impact.
Mike was the furthest thing from a "hot shot", he always had the right mind set when jumping.
I hope this clears up a few things.


DaVinciflies

Dec 30, 2011, 10:19 AM
Post #66 of 215 (1954 views)
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Re: [marx597] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's quite a different story than digging out. Thanks for posting what you saw.

Do you know if he was on rears or toggles at the time of the dive to the right?


Ron

Dec 30, 2011, 1:09 PM
Post #67 of 215 (1832 views)
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Re: [marx597] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Mike's a conservative guy.....

and

Quote:
he did a 270

Do not exactly jive.... Please understand I know what you are trying to say, and I am a swooper myself.... But doing a 270 to landing is not "conservative" in any way shape or form.

I know you are saying he was not dangerous or reckless, but we need to remember and continue to point out that high performance landings are exactly that... High performance and even a small mistake might end badly.

I have made my trip to the hospital, luckily I was young and my bones were still made of rubber back then.


firemedic  (D 29776)

Dec 30, 2011, 1:44 PM
Post #68 of 215 (1809 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you take a chance and it doesn't work out for you than that was your decision.

I really really really HATE this reasoning.

Somebody has to pick up the pieces. Its a HORRIBLE job, dealing with a smashed up body. Its not something anyone who loves skydiving wants to do, but somebody has to do it.

And then has to spend many hours dealing wwith the paperwork and BS that goes with the incident.

Then we have the friends and family left behind.

Its NOT OK to say that people can take chances and live or die with their decision, and that message needs to be hammered home hard.

Other people are involved, and its an involvement everyone can happily do without.

If you want to flaunt with the reaper, fine.

But NOT on my DZ.

__________________________________________________
Well said. I've picked up many pieces over the years and I have grown very weary of doing it.


(This post was edited by firemedic on Dec 30, 2011, 1:46 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 30, 2011, 2:48 PM
Post #69 of 215 (1748 views)
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Re: [format] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's not OK but from specific angle - it is reality.
Expert or student, they are with a loaded weapon. If you hang around, you just may be the target.

As you may seem to them. Your DZ is a shooting range.

Its odd, that the idiots all seem to pull their heads in when they visit my DZ's. Idiots and ego trippers get no leeway, whatever their experience and qualifications. Pissing me off is a bad option for anyone, and will result in a quick, public, deflating of the ego.

Having the swoop area away from the spectator area seems to work very well in deterring the show offs.

I don't ground people or ban them or their activities from the DZ. And the incident rate is very low.

People know where they stand, and what is expected, and they respect that.

If DZO's and S&TA's meant business, people would quickly fall into line. Its not hard at all.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Dec 30, 2011, 2:54 PM
Post #70 of 215 (1737 views)
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Re: [Ron] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think what he is saying is pretty straight forward that one mike was a experienced pilot. Two he was consistent and not the guy inconsistent and in the corner. Three that what ever caused the dive was after he was coming out of the turn he was originally set up for a good out come prior to the incident.

I would have a hard time saying that from his style and experience he was not conservative. He sounds like a safe and experienced swooper. Now That depends on your definition of conservative though. You risk getting taken out landing in the main so is the conservative jumper the one landing farther away then? Definetly by your statement but there is a huge difference conservative and safe. There is risk present on every iump we make. We could all not jump that's conservative too. I guess what I'm trying to add is that it sounds like what happened to mike has nothing to do with conservativeness as it could have happened on a turn to final in the pattern granted there would be less speed involved the outcome can be the same. Gear does fail and we all assume that risk and try to minimize it by maintaining our equipment properly

Is there any report on the gear broken lines/links that may have caused the turn? Sounds like we now at the least have an idea of why he went in but what caused it is unknown still or has someone confirmed he dropped a toggle?


(This post was edited by jjudd on Dec 30, 2011, 4:54 PM)


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Dec 30, 2011, 3:28 PM
Post #71 of 215 (1702 views)
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Re: [jjudd] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

the turn at the end sounds like a dropped toggle.

Even if it wasn't, this brings up an important point. I've done it (dropped a toggle), but on my first HP canopy (xfire2 139). Uneventful as I had already plained out on rears and just slid my landing in (one rear riser, one toggle).

I was lucky, embarrassed, and I screwed up. Worst yet, nobody knew, and I could have just cast it off as a one time thing. However, I took a hard look at how I was gripping my toggles.

I've posted two pictures. The first is me landing my old xfire2 139. You'll see i have an open hand, with maybe three fingers in the toggles. The second photo is me landing the velo 96. Much different.

Its an easy thing to overlook. How can it be that hard right? You reach up, grab the toggles, and carry on. You might not even realize what you are doing is wrong until it happens.

While I don't think toggle drops are common place, it does happen. Take a quick peek at some of your recent photos on landing and see if you have a good grip. Its a small detail, but can be deadly.
Attachments: Toggel (no).jpg (7.21 KB)
  Toggle (better).jpg (8.27 KB)


mirage62  (C 15580)

Dec 30, 2011, 4:07 PM
Post #72 of 215 (1660 views)
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Re: [firemedic] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well said. I've picked up many pieces over the years and I have grown very weary of doing it.

I'm going to reply one time to both the replies to my post. I do not want this thread to get off track.

I appreciate both your positions but pure hard fact is with your number of jumps and (I believe profession) you know that it is a fact that you will be seeing this. You may be tired of it, but it isn't and won't go away.

The ONLY way to stop it would be to stop swoop and in the end skydiving as a sport. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN but no matter what with swooping you will have accidents and deaths.

You will have deaths in "normal" skydiving to.

When you jump whatever you do, you risk someone picking your dead ass body up and your family and friends dealing with it.

All we can do as a group is try to lower the number.

Peace.




Olmed  (B License)

Dec 30, 2011, 4:40 PM
Post #74 of 215 (1613 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

While I don't think toggle drops are common place, it does happen. Take a quick peek at some of your recent photos on landing and see if you have a good grip. Its a small detail, but can be deadly.

Thanks for making this point. Future jumps will be with a firm grip on toggles.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Dec 30, 2011, 5:01 PM
Post #75 of 215 (1589 views)
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Re: [mirage62] fatality at Perris. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I appreciate both your positions but pure hard fact is with your number of jumps and (I believe profession) you know that it is a fact that you will be seeing this. You may be tired of it, but it isn't and won't go away.

The ONLY way to stop it would be to stop swoop and in the end skydiving as a sport. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN but no matter what with swooping you will have accidents and deaths.

You will have deaths in "normal" skydiving to.

I have always been fully cognisant of the risks involved with skydiving, and accept as part of my remit that I will be the one who has to deal with the consequences of screwups and accidents.

That doesn't mean I have to like it, or accept that accidents "just happen".

I can't get my head around a fatality or injury under a fully open canopy as an accident. To my mind it is unnecessary, and totally preventable...

Carnage reduction is worth it, however it is done. Swooping might be here to stay, but it seems to me that the number of people with the skill and talent to do it safely is very small, compared to the number of pilots who want to do it.

Not every fixed wing pilot has the skill or aptitude to fly fighter jets.

We need to realise that the same applies to HP canopies, and do something about that. Thats when we'll see a reduction in this Lemming like behaviour.

I can see licencing for canopy type somewhere up ahead if things don't improve.

This quote from"Proof" springs to mind:

"If you can't handle it, don't use it, y'know what I mean".


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