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Left AND right landing patterns

 

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dthames  (B 37674)

Dec 23, 2011, 11:01 AM
Post #1 of 26 (1640 views)
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Left AND right landing patterns Can't Post

The SIM text describes how left and right hand pattersn should coexist on the same field.....jumpers turning away from each other. But a couple of pages later, a drawing shows jumpers turning toward each other.

That looks like a contradiction to me. Can someone explain, if it is not?

SIM section 4-3 C
6. Planning a landing pattern (intended landing area or
alternate) for smooth flow and separation of traffic
(see illustration above):
a. Jumpers on left-hand (left-turning) approaches
should land on the left side of the landing area;
jumpers on right-hand approaches should
land on the right side of the landing area to
prevent conflicts.
b. The turn from base leg to final is the most
hazardous because of opposite approaching traffic
c. See and avoid.


dthames  (B 37674)

Dec 23, 2011, 11:44 AM
Post #2 of 26 (1597 views)
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Re: [dthames] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

I added my modified version if what I was envisioning.

I switched patterns from left to right, to agree with what I understand the text and the caption on the drawing says.

See attached.
Attachments: pattern.jpg (57.8 KB)


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Dec 23, 2011, 12:06 PM
Post #3 of 26 (1582 views)
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Re: [dthames] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

You seem to be confused by thinking they should be used simultaneously. This is absolutely not the case.

For whatever direction the landing pattern is set one or the other is appropriate. The default is left, but the physical layout of the landing area at a particular drop zone may require it to be right.

For instance, imagine a drop zone that had an aircraft runway located close to the landing area. It would be completely inappropriate for any part of the parachutist's approach below 1000 ft be over the runway, so that might force a change.

This is the case at Perris (see attached).

The green strip of grass just to the east of the runway is the main landing area. Obviously flying over the runway below 1000 feet is a BAD idea. Skydivers landing to the north use a right traffic pattern. When they land to the south, they use a left traffic pattern.


(This post was edited by quade on Dec 23, 2011, 12:24 PM)
Attachments: Perris.jpg (48.7 KB)


Hellis

Dec 23, 2011, 12:16 PM
Post #4 of 26 (1571 views)
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Re: [dthames] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

That looks like a very good idea, but in reality it seems very hard.

First those lines must be either marked in some way so that noone enters the no fly zone or crosses the lines.

Second, you need a massive landingarea.
If we esimate a 20 second canopy ride in the baseleg, canopys will travel aprox 200 m.
Thats 200 m for left landing pattern and 200 m for right landing pattern.
And then you need at least 50 m of no fly zone on each side, plus ~50 of "straight in" landing area.
That means you need at very minimum 550 m of landingarea. And this landingarea can not cross the runway.
Then you might need a seperate HP landing area?

Looks good on paiper but I'm not sure it can be done in real life.
Even our "huge" landingarea will not be enough for that.


Hellis

Dec 23, 2011, 12:17 PM
Post #5 of 26 (1567 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

I see Smile


SethInMI  (A 47765)

Dec 23, 2011, 12:28 PM
Post #6 of 26 (1552 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the SIM text and drawing do intend for left and right to be used at the same time. 6b says the "The turn from base leg to final is the most hazardous because of opposite approaching traffic" implying both can be going at once.

IMHO, they show the bases coming together because that is how people would be flying when "forced" into using both patterns. Usually there is a preferred pattern direction and entry point, and only if one cannot reach the preferred point would one fly the other pattern. So having the two patterns start from the basically the same point makes having/allowing both totally redundant.

Most DZs do not allow left and right patterns together in the same landing area regardless of where you land. But occasionally you may see people who cannot get to the preferred entry point to fly the correct pattern direction land with the opposite pattern rotation on the edge of the main area like the SIM drawing shows.



Seth


(This post was edited by SethInMI on Dec 23, 2011, 12:32 PM)


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Dec 23, 2011, 12:32 PM
Post #7 of 26 (1548 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the SIM text and drawing do intend for left and right to be used at the same time.

I haven't cracked open the SIM in awhile. I just did. Let me say that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of in terms of a Main Landing area, but makes some sense if setting up completely separate Main Landing and Swooping areas.

I can't think of any drop zone that would operate their main landing area that way.


(This post was edited by quade on Dec 23, 2011, 12:37 PM)


dorbie

Dec 23, 2011, 12:44 PM
Post #8 of 26 (1529 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the SIM text and drawing do intend for left and right to be used at the same time.

I haven't cracked open the SIM in awhile. I just did. Let me say that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of in terms of a Main Landing area, but makes some sense if setting up completely separate Main Landing and Swooping areas.

I can't think of any drop zone that would operate their main landing area that way.

Take a look at Elsinore's adjacent landing patterns for the peas and student area and you'll believe this and more.


(This post was edited by dorbie on Dec 23, 2011, 12:45 PM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Dec 23, 2011, 12:46 PM
Post #9 of 26 (1523 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the SIM text and drawing do intend for left and right to be used at the same time.

I haven't cracked open the SIM in awhile. I just did. Let me say that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of in terms of a Main Landing area, but makes some sense if setting up completely separate Main Landing and Swooping areas.

I can't think of any drop zone that would operate their main landing area that way.

Thanks. I was not suggesting we do this next Saturday. I just want to make sure I understand what I am reaading. Maybe someone that works on the SIM could review this section.

Listen to the instructors for the local DZ would be the standing rule, I guess.

Dan


Squeak  (E 1313)

Dec 23, 2011, 12:47 PM
Post #10 of 26 (1521 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the SIM text and drawing do intend for left and right to be used at the same time.

I haven't cracked open the SIM in awhile. I just did. Let me say that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard of in terms of a Main Landing area, but makes some sense if setting up completely separate Main Landing and Swooping areas.

I can't think of any drop zone that would operate their main landing area that way.
out main landing area is split by our runway, the duel pattern works fine for us. It also helps prevent people from crossing an active runway under canopy


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Dec 23, 2011, 12:52 PM
Post #11 of 26 (1516 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
. . . the duel pattern works fine for us.

That is perhaps a better name for it. Do you guys use pistols to shoot down opposing traffic? Wink

In all seriousness though, if the landing areas are split by the runway, I can't see any other way of doing it, but then again, that's also not a normal configuration for a drop zone.


(This post was edited by quade on Dec 23, 2011, 12:54 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Dec 23, 2011, 2:08 PM
Post #12 of 26 (1473 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
. . . the duel pattern works fine for us.

That is perhaps a better name for it. Do you guys use pistols to shoot down opposing traffic? Wink

In all seriousness though, if the landing areas are split by the runway, I can't see any other way of doing it, but then again, that's also not a normal configuration for a drop zone.

The farm has a right hand pattern for the alternative landing area and left for the main. There is also a very clear demarcation between the two areas (road lined by trees). So I think it may be more common than you think.

It probably only works where a dz has a 'proper' landing policy and not based on first man down...


sundevil777  (D License)

Dec 24, 2011, 8:00 AM
Post #13 of 26 (1332 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the SIM text and drawing do intend for left and right to be used at the same time. 6b says the "The turn from base leg to final is the most hazardous because of opposite approaching traffic" implying both can be going at once.

IMHO, they show the bases coming together because that is how people would be flying when "forced" into using both patterns. Usually there is a preferred pattern direction and entry point, and only if one cannot reach the preferred point would one fly the other pattern. So having the two patterns start from the basically the same point makes having/allowing both totally redundant.

Most DZs do not allow left and right patterns together in the same landing area regardless of where you land. But occasionally you may see people who cannot get to the preferred entry point to fly the correct pattern direction land with the opposite pattern rotation on the edge of the main area like the SIM drawing shows.



Seth

If a DZ has landing areas on both sides of a runway (and landing direction is same as the runway), for example, and everyone chooses to land on one side or the other at a decent altitude (as the should - not crossing the runway below 1k), then having both R&L patterns going could make sense to me.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Dec 24, 2011, 8:01 AM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Dec 24, 2011, 9:34 AM
Post #14 of 26 (1312 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You seem to be confused by thinking they should be used simultaneously. This is absolutely not the case.

For whatever direction the landing pattern is set one or the other is appropriate. The default is left, but the physical layout of the landing area at a particular drop zone may require it to be right.

For instance, imagine a drop zone that had an aircraft runway located close to the landing area. It would be completely inappropriate for any part of the parachutist's approach below 1000 ft be over the runway, so that might force a change.

This is the case at Perris (see attached).

The green strip of grass just to the east of the runway is the main landing area. Obviously flying over the runway below 1000 feet is a BAD idea. Skydivers landing to the north use a right traffic pattern. When they land to the south, they use a left traffic pattern.


I can think of at least 3 dropzones that have painted concrete blocks or similar to mark a split in the field, LH on one side, RH on the other.
I don't care for it, but that's how a few do it.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 24, 2011, 10:41 AM
Post #15 of 26 (1301 views)
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Re: [dthames] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I added my modified version if what I was envisioning.

I switched patterns from left to right, to agree with what I understand the text and the caption on the drawing says.

See attached.

The text matches the pic correctly. Your mod doesn't.
SIM shows worst case. Your mod is better...up to point. Your downwind leg would have to be very narrow.

Both patterns at the same time is not as unusual as some would think.


virgin-burner

Dec 28, 2011, 1:45 PM
Post #16 of 26 (1122 views)
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Re: [quade] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
. . . the duel pattern works fine for us.

That is perhaps a better name for it. Do you guys use pistols to shoot down opposing traffic? Wink

no set pattern where i jump; and since we're no yankee cowboys, we use common sense and look out for each other, no pistols needed.

works fine for us too.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 28, 2011, 2:05 PM
Post #17 of 26 (1118 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no set pattern where i jump; and since we're no yankee cowboys, we use common sense and look out for each other, no pistols needed.

works fine for us too.

So, maybe it's a better idea that you guys stay at home then. There's good reasons for landing patterns and most DZ use them.


DaVinciflies

Dec 28, 2011, 2:10 PM
Post #18 of 26 (1112 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
no set pattern where i jump; and since we're no yankee cowboys, we use common sense and look out for each other, no pistols needed.

works fine for us too.

Have you considered a career in diplomacy? Crazy

I don't think "winging it" is something to be proud of, and crowing about it is not helping those if us who are trying to change the culture of canopy control to the point where people are proud to be predictable and controlled.

Once again your off-the-cuff attempts at comedy might have been better kept to yourself.


virgin-burner

Dec 28, 2011, 3:45 PM
Post #19 of 26 (1097 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

"winging it", docpop? comedy? you're the joke here, baby..


Premier Remster  (C License)

Dec 28, 2011, 3:47 PM
Post #20 of 26 (1091 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
. . . the duel pattern works fine for us.

That is perhaps a better name for it. Do you guys use pistols to shoot down opposing traffic? Wink

no set pattern where i jump; and since we're no yankee cowboys, we use common sense and look out for each other, no pistols needed.

works fine for us too.

Maybe it's just your DZ that's backwards. Or you simply dont even know the rules where you jump.

All the European DZs I jumped at had patterns.


virgin-burner

Dec 28, 2011, 3:52 PM
Post #21 of 26 (1087 views)
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Re: [Remster] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

other than mine, most do have..

*** ** *** ***** *********** **** ***** ********* ** **** *** *****, ** *** **********!

have a nice day!


DaVinciflies

Dec 28, 2011, 3:57 PM
Post #22 of 26 (1082 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"winging it", docpop? comedy? you're the joke here, baby..

In reply to:
other than mine, most do have..

*** ** *** ***** *********** **** ***** ********* ** **** *** *****, ** *** **********!

have a nice day!

You're proving my point EXACTLY.
Stop acting like a dickhead, you're devaluing these threads.


virgin-burner

Dec 28, 2011, 4:00 PM
Post #23 of 26 (1076 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

you like attacking me, docpop!? your contribution is SOOO valuable. wow, i'm blown back, honestly, i'd love to have your insight! can i hold your dick?


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Dec 28, 2011, 4:11 PM
Post #24 of 26 (1067 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Children!
Children!

Please play nice.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Dec 29, 2011, 6:30 AM
Post #25 of 26 (1024 views)
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Re: [] Left AND right landing patterns [In reply to] Can't Post

Our dz uses dual patterns to separate main landing area and swooping area as quade suggested. Works well for us.

Main landing area is left hand pattern, swooping area right hand pattern. (Winds light/variable, from the north, or from southwest)


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