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Packing error, twisted risers

 


DvK  (B License)

Dec 18, 2011, 10:55 AM
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Packing error, twisted risers Can't Post

Hey guys and gals,

as an inexperienced jumper I managed to do something really stupid. I've only recently started packing myself. When I jumped a few jumps ago, I noticed something strange after opening, when I reached for my steering-toggles. My front and rear risers were twistet around eachothers. If I'm not mistaking it is caused by a packing error? When 'flipping' you container around itself when it's on the floor? Now I don't know if this is what happened, I obviously didn't notice it while packing, nor did the packers doing my checks.

Obviously it's really stupid to make such an mistake, and I guess I could blame myself and the packers for it, but I rather take it as a very good lesson.

I have 2 questions:
1: What's the name of this malfunction?

2: This one is more important, how do you deal with this kind of malfunction? When I noticed it, I first checked my altitude. I was well above cutaway alt. I decided to do a few practice-flares. Not the usual 2, I think I did 3 sets of 2 practice flares, to see if I could land it. I decided to continue flying under this canopy and flare on landing. Went just fine.

But was this the correct way to go?


If you can tell me how stupid/mindless my mistake might have been, take that elsewhere, it's not helping anyone.
If you can tell me what to do and how to make sure to notice this in time, thanks a lot :)


And yes, I did feel kinda silly when I noticed that my risers were a messUnsure


Bertt  (D 99999)

Dec 18, 2011, 11:17 AM
Post #2 of 21 (1960 views)
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Re: [DvK] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

What you describe is probably some kind of "step through" where you either stepped through the lines after landing or flipped the bag through the likes when placing it on the packing floor.
If you could steer OK then keeping it is fine, but if your steering lines hang up in the twisted lines you could be in trouble. Sounds like you checked everything and made a good decision. All's well that ends well.
To learn more about how to recognize this sort of problem and fix it when you pack, get a local rigger to work with you. Ask him to show you how different twists and tangles can occur when you pick up your gear in the field and lay it down for packing. The internet is no place to learn this, but a rigger can easily show you what to look for and how to fix it so you don't pack a malfunction for yourself.


DvK  (B License)

Dec 18, 2011, 11:27 AM
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Re: [Bertt] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What you describe is probably some kind of "step through" where you either stepped through the lines after landing or flipped the bag through the likes when placing it on the packing floor.
If you could steer OK then keeping it is fine, but if your steering lines hang up in the twisted lines you could be in trouble. Sounds like you checked everything and made a good decision. All's well that ends well.
To learn more about how to recognize this sort of problem and fix it when you pack, get a local rigger to work with you. Ask him to show you how different twists and tangles can occur when you pick up your gear in the field and lay it down for packing. The internet is no place to learn this, but a rigger can easily show you what to look for and how to fix it so you don't pack a malfunction for yourself.

I indeed could steer fine. I agree with you when you say that you can't learn everything from the internet. I kinda have a learn-by-doing attitude. Oh and I did spent some time with a local packer today, to understand what I'm doing when packing. Only knowing the how-to isn't enought in my opinion. I want to know what it is that I'm doing and why, and how that parachute exactly works, how the RSL works etc etc. This guy really taught me a lot.

While at it, I asked him if he could show me what a proper PIN-check should look like (like I said, I'm a relative new jumper, and only know this much so far).


JohnRich  (D License)

Dec 18, 2011, 2:18 PM
Post #4 of 21 (1887 views)
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Re: [DvK] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

It sounds like a "flip-thru".

In the air, do your controllability checks, and if all is okay, land it as-is. This is usually not enough of a problem to require a cut-away. The twists usualliy go down below the steering lines and toggles so that there is no interference.

Have someone show you on the packing mat how a flip-thru happens, how to do a "4-line check" to find out if such a problem exists, and then how to clear it and make it right before packing.

While you're at it, go through this with a "step-thu" also.

You start packing the moment you land. Don't just throw your gear in a pile on the floor when you get back to the hanger. Lay it out neat and correct from the start, to avoid flip-thru's.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Dec 18, 2011, 2:19 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 18, 2011, 3:55 PM
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Re: [DvK] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Do a quick line check before packing and that won't happen. And remember a line check goes all the way to the 3-rings. Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 18, 2011, 10:43 PM
Post #6 of 21 (1698 views)
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Re: [DvK] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do a quick line check before packing and that won't happen. And remember a line check goes all the way to the 3-rings. Wink

Yep. Part of the packing process is doing a "walk-up".
This is where, starting at the risers, you walk up the lines to get out the tangles and check for a walk-through.

As noted by JohnRich, some people have different names for the same mal (Walk-through, Flip-through, Step-through) but they all are really the same mal...the rig (with or without you in it) has gone through the lines. The different names come from how it happened.

So picture this...

Making sure that your risers are flat and not twisted, pick up the lines, one group at a time each group separated by your fingers.

For example,
-Pick up the brake line and put it between your thumb and fore finger.
-Now pick up the suspension lines connected to the rear riser and put them between your fore finger and your middle finger.
-Now pick up the suspension lines connected to the front riser and put them between your middle finger and your ring finger

-Hold on to them while you do the same on the other side.

-Now walk up the lines toward the canopy as you let the lines slide through your fingers. This gets the tangles out.
-When you get to the canopy, look at the lines between your fingers and the canopy. IF they are all straight and not twisted, you are good to go.

A. If they are BOTH twisted, you have either
1) a walk-through
Note: Depending on where the rig went through the lines, you may see that lines from one side (say, left side) are crossed over lines from the other side (right side)
2) you picked up the lines with both risers twisted.

B. If only one side is twisted, you had a twist in the risers on that side when you picked up the lines.

Either way, stop what you are doing and fix the problem.


Doing a walk-up is really for two purposes..untangling lines and checking for walk-throughs. Too many packing "teachers" neglect teaching about the walk-through check.


LDiCosimo  (B License)

Dec 19, 2011, 12:53 AM
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Re: [DvK] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

And don't try to be a hero and do a flip in the harness to get it straight while in flight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpOCsQCKi7I


DvK  (B License)

Dec 19, 2011, 3:54 AM
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Re: [LDiCosimo] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

Yea I've seen that vid when looking to see if what I described matches the name of the malfunction some guys here gave... Makes you think...


Johnsisland  (Student)

Dec 19, 2011, 5:56 AM
Post #9 of 21 (1618 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

B. If only one side is twisted, you had a twist in the risers on that side when you picked up the lines.

Either way, stop what you are doing and fix the problem.

I think I had a situation where the previous packer didn't check or didn't notice the lines on one side were twisted. I picked up a rig and jumped it for the first time that day. After I performed a control ability check, I found one riser twisted. DZO verified the riser was twisted when I was ready to repack the canopy.

My point is, that if you are a student packing a rig and perform a line check, find one side twisted, redo the line check and one side is still twisted, perhaps you should find a packer who can determine if you have a riser which is connected improperly.

I am just a lowly student, with little experience. Any student reading this should always consult an instructor. If I full of baloney, please correct my inaccuracies.


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 19, 2011, 6:18 AM
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Re: [Johnsisland] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My point is, that if you are a student packing a rig and perform a line check, find one side twisted, redo the line check and one side is still twisted, perhaps you should find a packer who can determine if you have a riser which is connected improperly.

I'd add rigger, instructor or experienced jumper to that.

Packers can be quite busy, experienced jumpers are usually sligthly less busy (waiting on the packers to pack so they can go jumpLaugh), instructors without students can be bored... Riggers that get the chance to get away from the loft and in between loads are usually willing to help do a line check (and show you how to do it yourself)

When in doubt, get a second opinion. I know when I teach packing, the student's 'check out' consists of me putting all kinds of step/flip thrus in the system and making them untangle it.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Dec 19, 2011, 6:20 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 19, 2011, 7:38 AM
Post #11 of 21 (1564 views)
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Re: [Johnsisland] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
redo the line check and (if) one side is still twisted, perhaps you should find a packer who can determine if you (may) have a riser which is connected improperly.

Good point. Incorrectly assembled riser.
Thanks for pointing it out for the OP.


dragon2  (D 101989)

Dec 19, 2011, 1:10 PM
Post #12 of 21 (1486 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
redo the line check and (if) one side is still twisted, perhaps you should find a packer who can determine if you (may) have a riser which is connected improperly.

Good point. Incorrectly assembled riser.
Thanks for pointing it out for the OP.

Whaha I don't trust the packers anymore (well not THAT set of packers anyway):

I got my rig back after a reserve ride (total mal so no cutaway of the main).
I got the rig back real quick, and as I was doing back to backs I didn't check it just dropped it straight off at the packers.

Ahem, stupid of me I admit.

After a while, both of the packers came looking for me as they found "something wrong" with the rig and they kept flipping and turning it but they couldn't fix the problem.
Yeah duh, that problem took me a whole second to identify: the canopy was put on BACKWARDS. And no my dear packers, flipping the rig through the risers one way or the other does NOT fix that particular issue SlySlySly

I was laughing my *** off as I took the rig back to the rigger: "I know I have reversed risers, but did ya have to put the whole canopy on backwards?!" Tongue


While incorrectly assembled risers may not be common, I was amazed and not in a good way at the packers, that 2 of them did not recognize the problem.


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 19, 2011, 3:37 PM
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Re: [dragon2] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah duh, that problem took me a whole second to identify: the canopy was put on BACKWARDS. And no my dear packers, flipping the rig through the risers one way or the other does NOT fix that particular issue SlySlySly

You have the reversed risers and the rigger hooked them up like normal risers? Laugh

But yes, I've untangled several canopies that the packers couldn't figure out. The lost look on their face as they're trying to is pretty funny sometimes. I've shown them how to figure out what to do, but hey, they're packers! TongueLaughLaugh


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 19, 2011, 5:10 PM
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Re: [dragon2] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whaha I don't trust the packers anymore (well not THAT set of packers anyway):

Well, to be fair., packers are not riggers. Some of them are not even jumpers.

One should always take care of their own stuff and not depend on others to do it for them.

For example, we'd like the packers to check our main closing loops but few of them do and it's a point of contention whether or not they should. Hell, some of them won't even set your brakes and only God knows how many collapsed sliders have been jumped.

However, packing a walk-through is totally inexcusable for any packer, anywhere.

A rigger mounting your main backwards is inexcusable for any rigger, anywhere, under any conditions. ME? It would be the last time that rigger touched my equipment.

OTOH, flying and landing backwards puts some extra "Ooomph" in the jump, eh?
LaughLaugh


Johnsisland  (Student)

Dec 19, 2011, 9:53 PM
Post #15 of 21 (1349 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
My point is, that if you are a student packing a rig and perform a line check, find one side twisted, redo the line check and one side is still twisted, perhaps you should find a packer who can determine if you have a riser which is connected improperly.

I'd add rigger, instructor or experienced jumper to that.

I would agree 100% with the rigger or instructor. I don't know why I said packer. I would tend to ask my instructor, since that's who is supervising me.

Just for clarification, the DZ where I experienced the single reversed riser usual practice was to have a student repack the rig they just jumped, most likely under supervision of the instructor or rigger.


JCW1966  (B License)

Dec 20, 2011, 2:46 AM
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Re: [DvK] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you can tell me how stupid/mindless my mistake might have been, take that elsewhere, it's not helping anyone.

I hear ya. You're obviously experienced enough to know the nature of some here in the forums. Those are the ones you have to ignore. They would argue with a wall.

Regardless of how stupid or mindless a mistake may seem to some there's always something to learn from it even if it's as simple as don't do it again.


JohnRich  (D License)

Dec 20, 2011, 8:12 AM
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Re: [Johnsisland] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
My point is, that if you are a student packing a rig and perform a line check, find one side twisted, redo the line check and one side is still twisted, perhaps you should find a packer who can determine if you have a riser which is connected improperly.

I'd add rigger, instructor or experienced jumper to that.

I would agree 100% with the rigger or instructor. I don't know why I said packer. I would tend to ask my instructor, since that's who is supervising me.

Are you excluding experienced jumpers from your set of people who could/should help? And if so, why?

You can be an instructor with just 500 jumps. You can be a rigger with zero jumps. On the other hand, there are experienced non-instructor non-rigger jumpers who have thousands of jumps and decades of experience - you shouldn't deem them unworthy of the ability to help. They've probabaly untangled more chutes than many of your instructors and riggers.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 20, 2011, 9:42 AM
Post #18 of 21 (1208 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
My point is, that if you are a student packing a rig and perform a line check, find one side twisted, redo the line check and one side is still twisted, perhaps you should find a packer who can determine if you have a riser which is connected improperly.

I'd add rigger, instructor or experienced jumper to that.

I would agree 100% with the rigger or instructor. I don't know why I said packer. I would tend to ask my instructor, since that's who is supervising me.

Are you excluding experienced jumpers from your set of people who could/should help? And if so, why?

You can be an instructor with just 500 jumps. You can be a rigger with zero jumps. On the other hand, there are experienced non-instructor non-rigger jumpers who have thousands of jumps and decades of experience - you shouldn't deem them unworthy of the ability to help. They've probabaly untangled more chutes than many of your instructors and riggers.

For the most part (not always) an insturctor is more likely to walk you thru the process so you learn how to do it. An experienced person is more likely to "do you a favor" and do it for you. More than likely, you'll learn more from the instuctor.

Teach a man how to fish??


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 20, 2011, 2:06 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can be an instructor with just 500 jumps. You can be a rigger with zero jumps. On the other hand, there are experienced non-instructor non-rigger jumpers who have thousands of jumps and decades of experience - you shouldn't deem them unworthy of the ability to help. They've probabaly untangled more chutes than many of your instructors and riggers.

Maybe 200 jumps Tongue (SL/IAD) or about 360 full altitude 60 second freefall jumps, AFF-I.

Just bustin your chops.




Also: I really think by just giving the student a canopy that's not twisted up and having them pack it for their A is doing a disservice to them. They should be competent to atleast identify and know some of the tips/tricks to get it unscrewed.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Dec 20, 2011, 2:08 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 20, 2011, 10:36 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also: I really think by just giving the student a canopy that's not twisted up and having them pack it for their A is doing a disservice to them. They should be competent to atleast identify and know some of the tips/tricks to get it unscrewed.

Total agree. Way too many Instructors and others teaching packing don't even mention those things much less show it and teach how to do it.
Unsure


Johnsisland  (Student)

Dec 25, 2011, 1:01 PM
Post #21 of 21 (948 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Packing error, twisted risers [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd add rigger, instructor or experienced jumper to that.

I would agree 100% with the rigger or instructor. I don't know why I said packer. I would tend to ask my instructor, since that's who is supervising me.
Are you excluding experienced jumpers from your set of people who could/should help? And if so, why?

You can be an instructor with just 500 jumps. You can be a rigger with zero jumps. On the other hand, there are experienced non-instructor non-rigger jumpers who have thousands of jumps and decades of experience - you shouldn't deem them unworthy of the ability to help. They've probabaly untangled more chutes than many of your instructors and riggers.
John,

I wouldn't exclude experienced jumpers. I would be concerned that a student with very few jumps at a large DZ wouldn't know who they could call an experienced jumper. If you are a student, and perhaps at a large DZ, it might be wise to stick with the instructor who you know, rather than trying to figure out who is an experienced jumper. I guess I am just leaning on a instructor due to being a student.

After spending some time at the DZ I jumped at, I can probably figure out which jumpers would be knowledgeable and helpful. A student on there first or second day at the DZ might not be able to determine which jumpers are experienced. Instructors should be a safe choice for helping a student with a rigging question.

I would hope that if an instructor did not understand the rigging problem they would consult with someone who is knowledgeable about the problem.

Comments?

Jeff



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