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Refueling with the engine running?

 

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Linas120  (D 1055)

Dec 12, 2011, 12:32 PM
Post #1 of 129 (3177 views)
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Refueling with the engine running? Can't Post

Have been to a dropzone in UK, where I am not jumping often. Noticed that after a load, pilot came off from the aircraft, the engine still running, and he did refuel the plane.

Thoughts on safety of such a practice of shortening the turnaround time between the loads and making more loads?


(This post was edited by Linas120 on Dec 12, 2011, 12:36 PM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Dec 12, 2011, 12:37 PM
Post #2 of 129 (3122 views)
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Re: [Linas120] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have been to a dropzone in UK, where I am not jumping often. Noticed that after a load, pilot came off from the aircraft, the engine still running, and he did refuel the plane.

Thoughts on safety of such a practice of shortening the turnaround time between the loads and making more loads?
Did they allow any skydivers around?


Skyper

Dec 12, 2011, 12:38 PM
Post #3 of 129 (3122 views)
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Re: [Linas120] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

sounds like preparation for the flight to heaven Cool


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 12, 2011, 12:48 PM
Post #4 of 129 (3108 views)
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Re: [Linas120] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Happens all the time in US. Usually it is best if it is not the pilot, but it can be done safely if done properly.


Linas120  (D 1055)

Dec 12, 2011, 12:53 PM
Post #5 of 129 (3098 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Did they allow any skydivers around?

Skydiver group was approaching the plane, the distance was around 30 meters by the time, when refueling was completed.


lekstrom10k  (D 3001)

Dec 12, 2011, 1:04 PM
Post #6 of 129 (3087 views)
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Re: [Linas120] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

 If it was a turbine plane that is the usual procedure. If a turbine its a 20 minute cool down time before a restart. All staris are recorded for the overhaul. Why waste a restart if no one is close anyway.


Linas120  (D 1055)

Dec 12, 2011, 1:10 PM
Post #7 of 129 (3077 views)
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Re: [lekstrom10k] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If it was a turbine plane that is the usual procedure. If a turbine its a 20 minute cool down time before a restart. All staris are recorded for the overhaul. Why waste a restart if no one is close anyway.

Correct, that was a turbine plane.


Ron

Dec 12, 2011, 1:52 PM
Post #8 of 129 (3037 views)
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Re: [Linas120] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a big deal if it is done correctly.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Dec 12, 2011, 2:53 PM
Post #9 of 129 (2980 views)
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Re: [Linas120] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have been to a dropzone in UK, where I am not jumping often. Noticed that after a load, pilot came off from the aircraft,

While hot fueling is common, does the pilot ever leave the plane with nobody at the controls, as may be implied here?

I'm not sure about air regs in the US or UK. It tends to be frowned on to leave an aircraft running with nobody at the controls, especially if the aircraft isn't securely restrained - setting the throttle idle and parking brake isn't considered sufficient to be truly safe. Charges have been laid if the aircraft isn't under sufficient control. There's always someone who hand props a small aircraft with nobody inside and then has the plane get away from them. I don't know if etiquette is different for a turbine aircraft where one might set the prop pitch to zero thrust.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 12, 2011, 3:14 PM
Post #10 of 129 (2962 views)
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Re: [Linas120] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Have been to a dropzone in UK, where I am not jumping often. Noticed that after a load, pilot came off from the aircraft, the engine still running, and he did refuel the plane.

Thoughts on safety of such a practice of shortening the turnaround time between the loads and making more loads?

There are some old school pilots who wouldn't even put out their lit cigarette to hot fuel. Shocked


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 12, 2011, 3:48 PM
Post #11 of 129 (2933 views)
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Re: [lekstrom10k] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If it was a turbine plane that is the usual procedure. If a turbine its a 20 minute cool down time before a restart. All staris are recorded for the overhaul. Why waste a restart if no one is close anyway.

While we're at it, lets unplug the cable to the tach as well, that way we can keep engine hrs down as well, I've seen this too. It's this type of acceptance of negligence that will cause a serious incident and has the potential to costs people who don't know any better their lives. I've been at one DZ in Texas where the engines were running sky divers loaded, 18 of them while the load organizer was refueling the Otter with out using so much as a ground wire plugged in the air craft. Think about how dangerous this could be should something go wrong. There was another fun jumper and myself to board at the time, we backed way up until that foolishment was over. I strongly urge you people do some research on this, I'm more than sure you'll be amazed how much destruction this has caused to air craft & people. Static Electricity, it's a word, look it up.


sacex250

Dec 12, 2011, 3:53 PM
Post #12 of 129 (2927 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hot fueling is a normal procedure, it's in the POH.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 12, 2011, 4:13 PM
Post #13 of 129 (2906 views)
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Re: [sacex250] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

Quote:
Hot fueling is a normal procedure, it's in the POH.

I'm well aware of that. Would you condone this same procedure on an offshore rig, or in the desert? I calculate not. Throwing ciggarete butts out of the window while driving down the road is a normal procedure as well, does this mean we just turn our heads and say "What the hell?" You guys best wake up, refueling with the engines running is simply ludicrous. Please see the attached URL & research this matter for yourselves.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 12, 2011, 4:15 PM
Post #14 of 129 (2907 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Static Electricity, it's a word, look it up.
Static electricity can cause a spark. However a spark will not cause kerosine to explode at fueling temps. I agree the ground wire should be used just because it is there, but it is not like it's gas.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 12, 2011, 4:39 PM
Post #15 of 129 (2894 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Static electricity can cause a spark. However a spark will not cause kerosine to explode at fueling temps. I agree the ground wire should be used just because it is there, but it is not like it's gas.

Your right, it's worse than gas. Throw a match into a 5 gallon of gas, what happens?? Now lets consider the tempeature add that into the equazion all of the sudden things look really different. Even NasCar takes extreme caution when refueling during races, there have been very deadly incidents during refueling in NasCar, but you take a look now. In fact they only allow 1 man over the wall to refuel the car. You obviously didn't visit the web site and do any research. I have personally witnessed Sikorsky 76's virtually explode on heli-decks during refueling, even when things are done by the book, it's still dangerous. I encourage you to visit the web site. I don't care how many of you turn a blind eye, ignore or just aren't aware of what can happen, this procedure can literally costs you your life. Personally, I will not board any aircraft while the engines are running, you have to add in the heat of the exaust to the ambient temperture, you'll be surprised how hot it really actually is. Add in the static environment of jumpers, flight suits, etc...then get back with me.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Dec 12, 2011, 5:21 PM
Post #16 of 129 (2860 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Static electricity can cause a spark. However a spark will not cause kerosine to explode at fueling temps. I agree the ground wire should be used just because it is there, but it is not like it's gas.

Your right, it's worse than gas. Throw a match into a 5 gallon of gas, what happens?? Now lets consider the tempeature add that into the equazion all of the sudden things look really different. Even NasCar takes extreme caution when refueling during races, there have been very deadly incidents during refueling in NasCar, but you take a look now. In fact they only allow 1 man over the wall to refuel the car. You obviously didn't visit the web site and do any research. I have personally witnessed Sikorsky 76's virtually explode on heli-decks during refueling, even when things are done by the book, it's still dangerous. I encourage you to visit the web site. I don't care how many of you turn a blind eye, ignore or just aren't aware of what can happen, this procedure can literally costs you your life. Personally, I will not board any aircraft while the engines are running, you have to add in the heat of the exaust to the ambient temperture, you'll be surprised how hot it really actually is. Add in the static environment of jumpers, flight suits, etc...then get back with me.

From your own link:
Quote:
Fuel for piston-engine powered aircraft (usually a high-octane gasoline known as avgas) has a low flash point to improve its ignition characteristics. Turbine engines can operate with a wide range of fuels, and jet-aircraft engines typically use fuels with higher flash points, which are less flammable and therefore safer to transport and handle

Jet fuel is not worse than gasoline.

I'd be uncomfortable boarding while a hot refueling was being done, but not just while the engines are running. I've done it lots of times. It's hot while in the direct exhaust, but not that hot, and you aren't there more than a few seconds (10 or 20 tops if there is a hold up ahead).

And hot refueling can be done safely if done properly, by well trained people.
Properly means using all the safety gear and having a pilot in the pilot's seat.


agentsmith413  (B 36115)

Dec 12, 2011, 5:47 PM
Post #17 of 129 (2847 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Jet A is definitely not as bad as gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxrWRfdLC3Y

This is an open flame into jet a. the video is crappy but interesting nonetheless


(This post was edited by agentsmith413 on Dec 12, 2011, 5:48 PM)


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 12, 2011, 5:56 PM
Post #18 of 129 (2836 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Safety first when refueling
Fuel servicing personnel is according regulations trained in the safe operation of fueling equipment. As a pilot refueling your own aircraft you should observe at least the following guidelines:

1) Check the color and type of fuel before the actual delivery. 100 octane aviation gasoline (avgas) is green and 100 octane low lead avgas is blue. Jet fuel is usually clear, but sometimes it is a very light yellow color as is normal road diesel and biodiesel. Red diesel is, well, colored red.
2) No smoking within at least 50 feet of an aircraft.
Refuel outside only. Remember: when refueling an aircraft within a closed hanger a situation could develop where the combination of air and fuel vapors are very explosive! One spark due to static electricity and your flight will end prematurely.
3) The aircraft and fueling vehicles or equipment should be bonded together to dissipate static electricity collected during refueling.
4) Always keep fire extinguishers nearby.
5) Portable electronic devices should be switched off (cellphones, radio's, pagers).
6) If a spill occurs, refueling should be stopped and the airport fire department notified, if necessary.
Ground power units should not be connected or disconnected during refueling.
7) Persons refueling aircraft should not carry lighters or matches when refueling.
8) At the first sight of lightning in the area, refueling operations should be suspended.
9) Refueling may not be conducted with passengers on board the aircraft.
10) Avoid contact with fuel. The health risks are high if fuel gets into your body, this is possible via the eyes, skin contact, ingestion of via inhalation. Get medical help if this happens.
11) AVgas refueling must not be done with the engines running (hot refueling) and be careful if hot refueling with JET A.
12) Make sure the fuel nozzle is clean and keep dirt and water away from the fuel caps, also support the nozzle preventing damage to the wing tank.
13) Replace the fuel caps securely, loosing a cap in flight will guarantee a loss of fuel and possible wing damage.
14) Wait some 30 minutes before sampling fuel, gently rock the wings so that any water and debris can settle near the sample port.


http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/...rcraft-refueling.php

These facts pulled from this other web site, not MY web site!


sacex250

Dec 12, 2011, 5:58 PM
Post #19 of 129 (2833 views)
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Re: [agentsmith413] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jet A is definitely not as bad as gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxrWRfdLC3Y

This is an open flame into jet a. the video is crappy but interesting nonetheless

I guess the guy's point is that TWA 800 couldn't have been taken down by an exploding fuel tank. I guess as a corollary we can deduce that crashing airliners don't catch on fire and explode.

Another conspiracy theory shot to hell!


sacex250

Dec 12, 2011, 6:01 PM
Post #20 of 129 (2829 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
11) AVgas refueling must not be done with the engines running (hot refueling) and be careful if hot refueling with JET A.

From your own quote.


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 12, 2011, 6:06 PM
Post #21 of 129 (2822 views)
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Re: [sacex250] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
From your own quote.

Once more, it's from a web site. They are not MY quotes. You people can condone this practice if you wish. Should you lose your life during an exercise like this, don't go bitchin' to the devil.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Dec 12, 2011, 6:14 PM
Post #22 of 129 (2808 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
From your own quote.

Once more, it's from a web site. They are not MY quotes. You people can condone this practice if you wish. Should you lose your life during an exercise like this, don't go bitchin' to the devil.

It's not a quote of what you said, it's a quote of what you quoted.
We're throwing your own quotes back at you.
The thing I quoted a few posts back about flashpoint was taken from the wiki page you linked. It wasn't what you said. but it was what you referenced.
Hot refueling of turbines is a hazardous, but accepted practice.

I fully agree that I wouldn't be willing to be on board an aircraft that was being hot refuled, but I would (and have) get on board one while the engines are running.

Post 15:
Quote:
...Personally, I will not board any aircraft while the engines are running...

Your words.


(This post was edited by wolfriverjoe on Dec 12, 2011, 6:18 PM)


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 12, 2011, 6:17 PM
Post #23 of 129 (2803 views)
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Re: [agentsmith413] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Jet A is definitely not as bad as gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxrWRfdLC3Y

This is an open flame into jet A. the video is crappy but interesting nonetheless


This video is my case & point. It doesn't matter whether it's Jet-A fuel or Gasoline, the flame will go out in either when introduced to the liquid form of the fuel. It's when vapors are introduced that makes it so dangerous. Clear & consice facts & video evidence have been introduced to you regarding this topic. Learn from it or ignore it, it's up to you. Wink


sacex250

Dec 12, 2011, 6:20 PM
Post #24 of 129 (2799 views)
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Re: [rwieder] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

You could try taking it up with the Air Force and Navy; they hot fuel airplanes loaded with passengers mid-flight.

Non-stops


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Dec 12, 2011, 6:25 PM
Post #25 of 129 (2794 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Refueling with the engine running? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Clear & consice facts & video evidence have been introduced to you regarding this topic. Learn from it or ignore it, it's up to you.

It's easy to see that what you believe is "between the ears" I don't care what the Navy does, Army or anyone else. I initially tried to say that IMHO it's a bad practice, and now I get BS like this. I'm out, try not to die.


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