Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition?

 


LoudDan  (D 27481)

Dec 11, 2011, 4:34 AM
Post #1 of 22 (2594 views)
Shortcut
What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? Can't Post

Personally, I think it's crap. The whole "can't see the label, please no pictures, I can't talk about it" procedure. I believe in order to keep competition competitive (truly) the competitors should have access to the same gear. That is not to say all competitors have to use the same gear.............but the access should be there, you shouldn't need to know the "right" person or be on a special team.

After all.... This is skydiving, do we need all the cloak and dagger?


matt002

Dec 11, 2011, 6:43 AM
Post #2 of 22 (2540 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im ok with it, I like to see the newest linesets and canopy designs being tested in the competition environment, for me thats part of competition, getting to see the new stuff.
I have always found that the pilots jumping these new designs are very open about what it is they are jumping and how the testing is going, they can never say when its going to be released as that is not their decision.
Perhaps I would feel different if I was competing at the top level but for me and I would guess 90percent of those who compete, the canopy/lineset is not the factor keeping me off the podium at a high profile event, experience is. Anyone who now jumps a comp velo will tell you that the difference between that and the regular is very slight, its not gonna break world records by itself.
Most of the pilots who are experienced enough to be competing for medals at high profile events are generally the ones jumping these test designs anyway.


superstu  (D License)

Dec 11, 2011, 8:14 AM
Post #3 of 22 (2507 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I believe in order to keep competition competitive (truly) the competitors should have access to the same gear
Do you honestly believe it's the gear holding most of us back from being on the podium? Cause if you do we should all go back to regular velocities cause that is what Curt was flying when he won overall in Dubai.

How do you propose PD or Icarus to measure the performance of their new canopies if not in a competitive setting?

As far as the "can't see the label...I can't talk about it" stuff, what good is it to know what the label says or how someone else thinks the canopy flies if you don't fly it anyway? Especially if the company is doing a lot of tweeking still.

Bottom line is all the companies are working on their little toys and the people they trust most get them first. However, if we look at the scores and placings of the most recent competition no one canopy has a distinct advantage and it still boils down to the pilot under it. Take a look:
Dubai Overall
1. Curt - Velocity
2. Nick - Petra/ JVX
3. Jay - Experimental
Dubai Accuracy
1. Curt - Velocity (I don't think a comp velo)
2. Nick - JVX
3. Bobo - comp velo
Dubai Distance
1. Jay - Experimental
2. Tagle - Experimental
3. Marat - Petra (I think)
Dubai Speed
1. Tommy D - Comp Velo
2. Greg W - Comp Velo
3. Jay - Experimental


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 11, 2011, 8:30 AM
Post #4 of 22 (2501 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
That is not to say all competitors have to use the same gear.............but the access should be there, you shouldn't need to know the "right" person or be on a special team.

It's not a matter of knowing the right people, it's about being the right person.

Anyone being given an 'experimental' high performance canopy for the purposes of competition has already proven themselves on production canopies. Experimental canopy or no, these guys will be on the podium.

Just knowing someone might get you a prototype canopy for an afternoon at a DZ, but by the time a factory is handing you one and sending you to a high-level competition, it's because of what you can do, not who you know.

Let's face it, sending a prototype to a competition is a way of introducing a new design to the public. It's the one place where there will be a ton of skydivers and industry people, and they'll all be paying attention to the swoop pond. A manufacturer isn't going to risk a poor showing (or worse) for their new product by handing it to just anyone. Look at the thread about the Penta-thing, and what happened when it spun up, instant bad publicity.

Get your shit together, start posting some appearances on the podium, and then you can have the new stuff too.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 11, 2011, 10:36 AM
Post #5 of 22 (2469 views)
Shortcut
Re: [superstu] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you honestly believe it's the gear holding most of us back from being on the podium?

I know that when I finally got a Velo, put HMA lines and a RDS on it I made top 3 instantly...oh, wait, I didn't.

Maybe I should train more? Maybe I'm flying against guys who are exceptionally talented and/or have been competing in swooping longer then I've been jumping?

Personally I really enjoy seeing the new toys show up at competitions. It is exceptional to see a top pilot with a new wing that he doesn't have a lot of experience with fly well. It is neat to see what is in the works with the top manufactures for the next generation of high performance canopies. All of it is just really a lot of fun!


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 11, 2011, 11:25 AM
Post #6 of 22 (2445 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's kinda the idea behind any 'open' competition, like in racing...the variances of the individual AND the vehicle, in combination are pitted against others.

It's always been the test-bed for new designs...and it makes sense if ya think about.

I mean, where else is a manufacturer going to get definitive, measurable & documented results of a new design performance in regard to the performance of other current canopies. . . in what's basically laboratory testing, all jumping at the same place, same conditions, same 'pressure' of competition.

Maybe some 'standard' rules should apply, like it's gotta be fabric, needs to be opened from free-fall, and JATO bottles not allowed ect. Sly



On the other hand, it might be interesting once in a while to have a swoop comp set up like a IROC race...

Same canopies for each competitor, loaded the same way...THOSE kinds of events more accurately measure the 'skills' than the 'machines'.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 11, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #7 of 22 (2432 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Same canopies for each competitor, loaded the same way...THOSE kinds of events more accurately measure the 'skills' than the 'machines'.

There had been talk about that sort of thing a few years ago. Open nose 9-cell class of swooping with wingloading limits (on Sabre2s/pilots/Safire2s or a katana/XF2 class). Size limits wouldn't be very fair due to size differences between the jumpers. Ian on a 190 wouldn't get nearly the loading as I do on a 190.

It would be a good time and I would really enjoy that sort of competition.


bofh  (D 13995)

Dec 12, 2011, 3:00 AM
Post #8 of 22 (2311 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that it currently doesn't matter as far as results are concerned, but at the same time it is not fair. Even if it only makes a minimal difference, it should be available to all the competitors or none. In most other sports there are either design rules for the equipment or it must be available to all competitors. In paragliding there is a different class for experimental equipment and I think that should be adopted in the CP competitions as well.

I call BS on the argument that the manufacturers need competitions to test their new designs. What input will those nine/twelve jumps per competitor and competition have on the development compared to all the other test jumps done? We are talking about a rather simple sport here. Its not like there are loads of different variables per competition that are unavailable at other times. Sure, one can get lucky like the Petra collapse, but the competition did not add anything to the testing that not a regular test jump could have. On the other hand, it is probably a way to keep the costs down somewhat. The sponsored jumpers can train while test jumping new canopies, making them more competitive for the same budget.

The manufacturers do not have to introduce their canopies on a competition before it can be ordered either. I'm not much of a salesman, but in other fields you try to get as much buzz as possible just before you release the product for sale, not spread out for a long time before it is available. For NZ Aerosports it even backfired a lot with the Petra.


LoudDan  (D 27481)

Dec 12, 2011, 6:16 AM
Post #9 of 22 (2261 views)
Shortcut
Re: [superstu] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps a prototype class where manufacturers can win bragging rights.............I'm willing to bet "A" games would be brought


matt002

Dec 12, 2011, 6:24 AM
Post #10 of 22 (2257 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bofh] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What input will those nine/twelve jumps per competitor and competition have on the development compared to all the other test jumps done?.

It allows the design to be compared directly to all the other types of canopies that are used in competition, against the other top pilots, and on level playing field in terms of venue, conditions etc. This cannot be re-produced in any other way than in actual competition.
Its exciting to watch and this all takes place in front of the potential customers for such a canopy, as these deigns are often competition specific designs that are sold in very small numbers.
This does exactly what you say, it generates a buzz around a product within the target market.

In not sure what you mean about the Petra, as far as I know, they are not on general release yet.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 12, 2011, 6:27 AM
Post #11 of 22 (2252 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matt002] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In not sure what you mean about the Petra, as far as I know, they are not on general release yet.

One folded during the dive at the comp in Dubai. If it wasn't for a quick reaction by the competitor (and possibly a Skyhook), he would most likely be dead.


piisfish

Dec 12, 2011, 6:34 AM
Post #12 of 22 (2249 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

where do you draw the line with "same gear" ? should the canopies be completely stock, could the linesets be tweaked, would RDS be authorized if not stock with the canopy etc etc ??

It is competitive swooping. Bring the new ideas. Bring the new canopies, materials, gear.

And if YOU don't have the special gear, it is because YOU are not on the special team... yet... Prove them teams that you are a good horse, and the might take you to the races Smile


beowulf  (C License)

Dec 12, 2011, 7:14 AM
Post #13 of 22 (2231 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think a bigger problem is people whining about stupid shit like this.


LoudDan  (D 27481)

Dec 12, 2011, 8:42 AM
Post #14 of 22 (2186 views)
Shortcut
Re: [beowulf] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ahhhhhhhh stupid shit.......right. Thanks for the insightful commentary, I'll double check to see if this is the part where you blow me. I'm pretty sure it is, but I would hate to be misleading.

It's a question. Individual opinions are what I was after, you're not going to change my opinion, I've spent way too long developing it...........AND I already stated my opinion and that would be "what I think".

The question is: (leaving growth of sport and development of gear aside) Would it be more fair if the equipment used had to be commonly available.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 12, 2011, 10:14 AM
Post #15 of 22 (2158 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
(leaving growth of sport and development of gear aside) Would it be more fair if the equipment used had to be commonly available

Not really. It comes back to my point about who gets the experimental or prototype canopies, these guys are on the podium before the get the canopies (which is how they get them), and they would still be there without the 'top secret' gear.

One thing to consider is the gap between the top guys and everyone else. Is it created just by the canopies they jump? Would they lose that gap without those canopies?

The other side of the coin, what's to say that these canopies are an improvement over what's out there? Maybe the canopies are hold them back because the 'theory' of the new canopy doesn't match up with the reality of the new wing.

I've got near 1000 jumps on my Velo in the current configuration, and I put 3000 on Stiletto 107s before that. That's a lot of time and 'practice' with those canopies, how much time/jumps do the top guys get with their 'experimental' canopies before bringing them to compete? I'll admit they train hard, but not 1000+ jumps on a prototype hard.

Your idea has some merit in lower classes, but even then, how would you regulate it? Are you going to check the trim on every canopy that makes it to the podium? What about a beat up canopy that's just plain out of trim, but the pilot rocks it an wins? The trim will be out of spec, as-if they used a non-stock lineset, but that wouldn't be the case.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 12, 2011, 10:15 AM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Dec 12, 2011, 10:19 AM
Post #16 of 22 (2151 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dan,

Tone it down. If you want to have a constructive conversation then telling a poster to "Blow you" isn't the best way to go about it.

Ian


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 12, 2011, 1:59 PM
Post #17 of 22 (2089 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Perhaps a prototype class where manufacturers can win bragging rights.............I'm willing to bet "A" games would be brought
They have that; it's called open.


beowulf  (C License)

Dec 12, 2011, 2:55 PM
Post #18 of 22 (2064 views)
Shortcut
Re: [LoudDan] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want to jump an experimental parachute then modify your own parachute! Bam there you can be just like those guys!

The standings aren't being overwhelmed by experimental parachutes so I don't see any merit to your concerns.


bofh  (D 13995)

Dec 14, 2011, 1:28 AM
Post #19 of 22 (1947 views)
Shortcut
Re: [matt002] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What input will those nine/twelve jumps per competitor and competition have on the development compared to all the other test jumps done?.
It allows the design to be compared directly to all the other types of canopies that are used in competition, against the other top pilots, and on level playing field in terms of venue, conditions etc. This cannot be re-produced in any other way than in actual competition.

I was in Dubai (even entered the competition, but not really competing with my hundred jumps on my Scirocco and never having dragged a foot in water nor navigated a speed course before the competition...). Due to the size of the competition the weather conditions were rather different between the first and last jump in each round, so again, I don't really see what valid test data was gathered if one wanted to compare designs. With weather being what it is, luck is a part of CP competitions.

I would like to change my position a bit though. The zone acc and freestyle rounds do not really bring much test data to the table, so at most six jumps per competition and competitor are sampled, or in Dubai's case four jumps, diluted by different weather conditions. The manufacturers can develop new canopies just as well without that little test data.

In reply to:
This does exactly what you say, it generates a buzz around a product within the target market.

Yes, but what I wrote was that in most other fields manufacturers want to save up that buzz to near the product launch, not spread it out so thin that people have almost forgot about the product when it is finally released. The canopies could still be introduced at a competition, I'm just saying that it should be available to everyone if it is to be used in a competition, just like in most other sports.

Some say get better and you can also get access to the experimental canopies, I find that a bit narrow minded. If the competitors were more even, most people would still not be added to the factory teams nor get to play with the experimental canopies. If the canopies bring a measurable improvement then the sport is more unfair than it needs to be. Of course it will always be unfair, but why allow for the most obvious kinds?

Someone else said it is the combination of the pilot and the wing that are competing, but if so why are not the equipment presented in the competition results (or even collected by the organisation)?


bofh  (D 13995)

Dec 14, 2011, 1:52 AM
Post #20 of 22 (1942 views)
Shortcut
Re: [piisfish] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
where do you draw the line with "same gear" ? should the canopies be completely stock, could the linesets be tweaked, would RDS be authorized if not stock with the canopy etc etc ??

Everything could be tweaked as much as the pilot/manufacturer want, just as long as it is documented so everyone can make the same tweaks. Of course the judges can make the decision that part of the system (like the RDS) does not matter and neither has to be available to the public or be documented.


superstu  (D License)

Dec 14, 2011, 3:53 AM
Post #21 of 22 (1924 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bofh] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Due to the size of the competition the weather conditions were rather different between the first and last jump in each round, so again, I don't really see what valid test data was gathered if one wanted to compare designs
From what the guys at the competition told me was that groups were formed based on World rankings so all the top pilots (Jay, Tagle, Nick, Greg, Curt....) were all on the same aircraft and relatively close to each other during the whole comp, which also means there were Petra's, experimental's, comp velo's, velo's, JVX's, and so on relatively close together within the competition. So it was a decent location/event to get a direct comparison versus other canopies.

Quote:
Yes, but what I wrote was that in most other fields manufacturers want to save up that buzz to near the product launch, not spread it out so thin that people have almost forgot about the product when it is finally released.
I completely agree


hparrish  (D 25090)

Dec 16, 2011, 2:20 PM
Post #22 of 22 (1634 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] What do you think about canopies not publicly available being allowed in competition? [In reply to] Can't Post

This Right here is why I'm perfectly happy NOT JUMPING experimental canopies. That was NASTY.



Forums : Skydiving Disciplines : Swooping and Canopy Control

 


Search for (options)