Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Samurai to Velocity

 


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Dec 8, 2011, 7:55 PM
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Samurai to Velocity Can't Post

So I love my current canopy. Samurai 136 at 1.4 WL. I would also like to express up front that I am nowhere near close to being able to downsize yet. I received some coaching from one of the top canopy pilots last summer. I spent all season attempting to perfect my 90 degree front riser turn. I just now feel ready to show him my progress on the 90 and see if I am ready to progress further. So obviously I have not come close to getting every ounce of performance out of this canopy yet, which is my goal before going down a size. I do feel that I am getting the most possible out of a 90 now though which has me stoked. Coaching makes a world of difference! Anyway my question is on my possible future progress. I am wondering if I stay on the Samurai and just continue my downsize progression on that canopy would the transition to a Velocity eventually (when I am getting to around a 2 to 1 WL) be a radical change? I have heard the Katana is a great canopy for the transition to a Velo. Would going to a Katana 135 (same size) after I ring out the Samurai be preferable in some of your minds? I love the Samurai so my thought is to stay with what I love, but I have no experience with the Katana either. I guess my main concern would be the comparable recovery arcs. I am under the impression the Katana would have a longer recovery arc, and so does the Velo. Whereas the recovery is a bit shorter on the Samurai, although I would not call it a "short" recovery by any means. Nothing like a Stiletto. Lol I don't know. I guess it's pointless because I still have so far to take the Samurai still and I am very content to do just that. Just was curious because I thought about it. Hell I might find I am content on the Samurai at a 1.6 or 1.8 and never go crossbraced anyway. After all I still have no idea how fast this Sam can really go yet. I just may find the 136 is fast enough and the whole discussion would be moot,but welcome any thoughts.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 9, 2011, 2:20 AM
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a big deep breath.

Do that?

Great, now don't worry about it so much. You're at least 500 jumps away from going to a Velo and you have plenty of ground to cover in various fundamental skills that have to be mastered before you make it there. By the time you get all of those done, the differences between a Sam and a Katana really won't matter to you anymore.


Martini  (D 23756)

Dec 9, 2011, 12:30 PM
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Demo a Katana. Demo a Stiletto. Etc.


wildWilly  (B License)

Dec 9, 2011, 1:06 PM
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

I went from a Sam 136 ( 1.6 WL) to a Sensei 101 ( 2.1WL)
and didn't notice a huge change. The only big difference being it comes down a lot faster and has a negative recovery arc like the Velo. You will also find the initiation alt will be higher than the Sam by a couple hundred ft. Stick with the Sam for a few hundred more jumps ( I put 900 on mine) and continue with the coaching.Don't be in a rush to get a Velo.
You also have to consider what type of jumps you will be doing. When you go to a Velo ( or other small HP canopy) you won't want to be doing wingsuit jumps or big ways
( jumps where you will be deploying below 2500ft.) The Velo and Sensei sometimes like to take their time opening and are a lot more sensitive to body position at deployment.( learned that the hard way)
Good luck,

Willy


stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 9, 2011, 5:35 PM
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Re: [wildWilly] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

first time hearing that sensei has negative recovery arc especially when loading that light at 2.1

I've heard that they come out quick and don't dive well.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 9, 2011, 6:47 PM
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Re: [stayhigh] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
first time hearing that sensei has negative recovery arc especially when loading that light at 2.1

I've heard that they come out quick and don't dive well.

It depends on which lineset you have. If I remember correctly, there were at least 4 different linesets available for that canopy.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 9, 2011, 8:27 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

There are four different linset for each size?? sounds little BS bro.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Dec 10, 2011, 12:58 AM
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Re: [AggieDave] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You're at least 500 jumps away

AggieDave I think you are low on your estimate, however you did say AT LEAST 500 jumps. Others may jump Velos at 900 jumps, but I know my current skill level. I am learning the right way, and I don't think I will be ready for that canopy in 500 jumps, but then again I also know I am not looking to compete. I am already behind the curve with age and don't have the drive that those guys have. Nick, the CP I received coaching from based off your suggestion btw, Wink has incredible drive to be THE BEST. Hell he KNOWS he is the best. I just don't have that lol. I just want to have fun and try not to get broke doing it. I also have learned enough in this sport though to never say never, and to try to say where I will be in 500 jumps lol, so you maybe more accurate than my current estimation and statement, because you have been where I am and have more experience. I thought I did a good job of articulating I wasn't in a rush with my original post, but maybe I failed to convey that. Don't fret bruddah I am good on the 136 and have zero desire to go anywhere until I am flying the fuck outta it. I am just now flying the fuck outta a 90 and nowhere near the full potenital of this canopy. It is funny how once you realize that, I mean truely realize, that your canpoy is capable of SO much more than you are giving it, you take a step back and realize you have to go slow in your progression. I was just curious if this is the right canopy to continue my progression on if my goal is to eventually go crossbraced, which I don't even know if that is in my future as I stated so it may all be moot anyway. Sounds like you are saying that if I take my time, do it right, then I will be skilled enough at the time to compensate for any difference in canopy? And I shouldn't worry about it and stay with the Sam. I love it, so why change anyway. Please correct me if I am wrong because I do not want to put words into your mouth that you don't agree with.

I guess this all came about because one of my mentors that has world record and national championship freefly experience told me to get off my Stiletto when I expressed interest in swooping. I realize that is a whole other debate (short vs. long recovery arc) and don't want to get into it, but he recomended the Samurai as a good intro to swooping canopy. BTW he also recommened I stay on the Sam until I am over 1,000 jumps like he did. I think he was up to 2,000 before going to his Velo. I am in NO way doubting his advice. I just began to think about the differences between the Stiletto and Sam, why the Sam is better to learn to swoop on, and then kinda transferred those thoughts between the Sam and Velo if that makes any sense. Like I said in the OP this is all probably stupid and moot anyway. I was just wondering.


Sangi

Dec 10, 2011, 2:26 AM
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're worrying and thinking that much into the future than you're not ready for what you're thinking about.

Focus on the NOW and not on the later.

If you're only finished perfecting your 90's than you still have A LOT more to perfect which will take a lot of time and learning if you do it the wise way (don't rush).

Yes, switching to a smaller, faster, snappier canopy is loads of fun, but failing to control it like it should be controlled is not, specially if it gets your bones broken or worse..

As people say, it's a lot more fun to be slow but good at it, than fast but shit at it Smile

Also, the samurai is a perfect canopy to progress in swooping, specially for your level Wink


(This post was edited by Sangi on Dec 10, 2011, 2:27 AM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Dec 10, 2011, 3:28 AM
Post #10 of 20 (1996 views)
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Re: [Sangi] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you're worrying and thinking that much into the future than you're not ready for what you're thinking about.

I did not say I was worrying about anything. I asked a specific question about similarities or extreme differences between certain canopies. Never in any of my previous post did I imply I was ready to fly a Velo. (which IMHO is what you are trying to imply) In fact I stated I was not.

Quote:
Focus on the NOW and not on the later.

That is EXACTLY what I am doing. I am just trying to make sure that what I am focused on (Sam) is right for MY future.

Quote:
If you're only finished perfecting your 90's than you still have A LOT more to perfect which will take a lot of time and learning if you do it the wise way (don't rush).

Did I not elude to that very fact extensively? Actually elude is a bad word..... I said almost exactly that about myself. Reread my post please.

Quote:
Yes, switching to a smaller, faster, snappier canopy is loads of fun, but failing to control it like it should be controlled is not, specially if it gets your bones broken or worse..

Did I also not mention not wanting to get broken? Did you not read the post previous to yours in response to AggieDave?

Quote:
Also, the samurai is a perfect canopy to progress in swooping, specially for your level

Wow, one sentenance that applies to my question! Thanks! I will stick to the Sam!

Seriously guys people should be allowed to ask questions on this site, otherwise what in the hell are these forums for? I made PERFECTLY clear that I had NO intention of switching canopies until I can push this one to it's absolute limits yet I still get this?

If you take a step back and realize that I have zero experience on a crossbraced, really read what I said, and think back to your experience at my level, then you will realize you propably had similar questions too. I have heard from VERY experienced people that the canopy I am on is GREAT for learning how to swoop. In my limited experience on it that has proven very true. I have learned a ton and also mention how much I still don't know. I was just simply wondering about the possible transition from it. I realize people need to be concerned that some guy is gonna jump from a Sam 136 to a sub 100 Velo but please FOR REAL people. Did I not do a good enough job articulating or what?


Sangi

Dec 10, 2011, 4:29 AM
Post #11 of 20 (1985 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude, chiiiiiiill Wink

Why are you even thinking about transitions now?

You have an ideal canopy with a pretty decent WL for your level, enjoy what you've got, don't think about what you'd like to get sometime in the future, because that future is still far away, unless you're super duper rich and can progress in a lightning fast way..

And no I'm not bashing you in any way you're imagining, I'm not saying you don't have the skills or you're going the wrong way because I just don't know and see you in real life..

But from your thread, all I'm saying, don't think about future transitions, again, enjoy what you've got and push it to the limit wisely.

Put your mind on the learning curve and not on the transition curve (for now). You'll get there when you'll get there Wink


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 10, 2011, 5:11 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are four different linset for each size?? sounds little BS bro.

Remember, the Sam was a low number production company that Germain had built by PD. There were some lineset changes during production, but there was also a "comp" lineset you could order that steepened neutral flight and also significantly increased the recovery arc.

I think it might have been discussed on DZ.com a few years ago when the Sam was *the* popular canopy (right around the time the Katana first came out).

Believe me if you wish, if you don't it really doesn't hurt my feelings one bit.


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 10, 2011, 5:13 AM
Post #13 of 20 (1970 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand wanting to have a very specific long term plan. I'm very similar in that regard. In 2002 the DZO where I jumped asked me what my goals were. I said I wanted to be jumping a Velo and earn a pro-card on the swoop tour. He asked what my time frame was and I said 5 years. In 2007 I did just that. So I get it.Wink


craigbey  (C 31991)

Dec 10, 2011, 8:35 AM
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Re: [AggieDave / efs4life] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Remember, the Sam was a low number production company that Germain had built by PD. There were some lineset changes during production, but there was also a "comp" lineset you could order that steepened neutral flight and also significantly increased the recovery arc.

AggieDave:
After about 400 jumps on my Samurai 120 on the 'standard' lineset, I had it relined. It was time for the longer lineset and the difference was very noticeable and very nice. I was grateful the longer lineset was an option.

The Samurai is an excellent wing and I was very disappointed when Brian decided to kill it. It will live on in loyal customers and the classifieds.

efs4life:
Why is flying a Velocity a goal? As you continue learning more on your existing wing, demo, demo, demo! Next spring, get back into the groove and then contact PD and get a Katana 135 and/or 120 demo.

You still in MO? You're not far from SDC / ParaConcepts and an easy Crossfire2 demo. And you're not far from a beautiful, slightly used Samurai 120. Always packed indoors and never chopped.

But don't do this with the narrow focus on getting a Velo. You will continue learning about your wing and others as you demo and you may find something with a better balance or something more appropriate for your jumping / flying style. There are differences between HP canopies. Some of them obvious and many others that are more subtle.

As you learn more about these canopies, hopefully you will learn more about yourself, your skills and what you really want / need in a HP canopy. You may find that you really do want a Velocity. That's cool. But there are other canopies out there that you may prefer.

(This post was edited by craigbey on Dec 10, 2011, 8:39 AM)


stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 10, 2011, 7:13 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

you are talking about samurai,

i was talking about sensei,


AggieDave  (D License)

Dec 10, 2011, 7:20 PM
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Re: [stayhigh] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you are talking about samurai,

i was talking about sensei,

Yup, went back and looked you said Sensei, I read it as the Sam. All the Sensei has is short/slow swoops.Tongue


TAXIWAY

Dec 11, 2011, 3:50 PM
Post #17 of 20 (1767 views)
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Re: [Martini] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Demo a Katana. Demo a Stiletto. Etc.

I have been jumping a sameri 105 for a number of years. I came from a stiletto and the sameri is a better canopy. Cant say much on the katana havent jumped one.

My advise is say with what you have until your getting all its got then learn down winders when that gets boring then down size. I can guarnatee you can get more out the 90's than you are now. I can swoop almost as far on a 90 as i can with a 270 its all teqnique. If you are luckey enough to take brian germaines coarse do it.
Just take the learning progresion and down sizing slow. I had over 1500 jumps on my stilleto 135 before down sizing to the sameri 105.
I put 800 or so on the 105 and was getting all it had. I sent it back to brian he retrimmed it and relined it and it came back way faster I see no reason to jump anything else.


(This post was edited by TAXIWAY on Dec 11, 2011, 3:52 PM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Dec 12, 2011, 10:05 PM
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Re: [TAXIWAY] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks all. I promise to take it slow, and my plan is to stay with the Samuai for quite awhile. I know I have at least another season, if not two on my136. Just was wondering if when I eventually get down to like a Sam 105 what the transition to a say Velo 103 be like? I think it natural to wonder about stuff like that. I understand your responses, but i am definitely focused on my current canopy, learning all I can on it, and taking it slow.... the progression not the swoops Wink

CraigBey after next season, or two, I plan on taking you up on that Sam 120!

Taxiway you are right,I probably could get more out of my 90. That is why I am going to have my coach review videos of my 90 and give me some constructive criticism to see if I am ready to progress to a 180 or if I need to work on maxing out my 90 more. Technique is everything. That being said, I worked on my technque all season tomaxout my 90. Coaching isnt free (unless you are a lucky SOB) so I wanted to be getting the maximum outta my 90 before paying to have it reviewed by my coach. I am getting some pretty damn long swoops for just a 90. I won't be surpirised if he says good job,but you get more by this or that. I am prepared to go back to work on his advice too. I want a strong foundation to build off so I want my 90 to be awesome and consistent. I feel like it is getting there, but we will see what the coach says.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Dec 13, 2011, 3:16 AM
Post #19 of 20 (1635 views)
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Re: [Sangi] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh yeah Sangi off topic, but fuck it. I went and read your incident and saw your video. Props for manning up and not just disapperaing here on DZ.com. I have a bounce vid too, but nowhere near yours. Nothing was bruised except my pride fortunately. It was on a 90 when I first started swooping. Held on to doubles a little too long before starting the turn. Could have salvaged it by snapping the turn quicker, but I usually carve it slow. Probably could have dug out on the toggle, but found myself above my pay grade skill wise and hesitated for an instant. I was lucky enough to bounce and not get hurt. That humbled me and definately caused me to slow my role. I have spent an entire season perfecting my 90 and won't progress to a 180 until all three parties, my coach, dzo, and S&TA say I can. Anyway brother heal fast.

For everyone out there please know I am NOT comptimplating downsizing. Really I am not. I know that I do not have the skill to push my Samurai to it's limit yet. Until then I have no business on a 120. I am not just yanking on a riser cranking out 270 thinking I am getting all she has. I am learning to perfect my 90 and taking my sweet time doing so.

I just realize people will think 400 jumper asking about a Velo (roll of the eyes) I was seriously wondering down the road type stuff, and no my down the road is not in 100 or 200 jumps lol.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 13, 2011, 8:54 AM
Post #20 of 20 (1586 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Samurai to Velocity [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know I have at least another season, if not two on my136. Just was wondering if when I eventually get down to like a Sam 105 what the transition to a say Velo 103 be like?

I think the other Dave hit the nail on the head in the first reply, it's a long ways off, just worry about now for the time being.

Things will change between now and then. New canopies will come out, new ideas will surface, maybe a new jumper will show up at your DZ and change your thinking all together.

In the next year or two, and several hundred jumps, you'll learn a ton, see a lot, probably jump a handful of demos (or borrowed) canopies, and all of this will guide your actions and impressions when you're ready to jump a Velo. Worry about it then.

It's like all the guys with 3 jumps asking about cameras for when they're ready to jump a camera. God only knows what will be available by the time they're ready to jump a camera, so either ask him or just wait until the time comes and see what things look like then.



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