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HP From an Old Fart

 

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Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 12:45 PM
Post #201 of 463 (1161 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
sangi's ......{snip}

He also said he would be fine and that we didn't know him and how good he was.


virgin-burner

Dec 6, 2011, 12:52 PM
Post #202 of 463 (1159 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>sorry mate, but i'd rather trust their and my judgement than ANY posters on here.

Yep. And again, Sangi used almost exactly those words. How'd that work out for him?

apparently, nope, he was banned with his KA on at least one dz in LT.


virgin-burner

Dec 6, 2011, 1:00 PM
Post #203 of 463 (1156 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

1.) i meant "entanglement" of main/reserve, main/jumper or reserve/jumper, not entanglement in terms of canopy-collision. check the fatality-list on here, the number is surprisingly high!

2.) well, in that case it was for a hit and rock and i was assigned to pull at 6k, so that's like almost 3x of your "normal" pull-altitude.

as for A and B, as i said, if you dont loose altitude awareness pulling higher means more time to work stuff. especially with modern canopies as they seem to snivel forever. your BSR's were probably written in a time where you all jumped rounds that open within 100ft or so. a modern canopy takes ten times as long.


virgin-burner

Dec 6, 2011, 1:04 PM
Post #204 of 463 (1153 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
sangi's ......{snip}

He also said he would be fine and that we didn't know him and how good he was.

no, i said you it doesnt seem to be a problem as it is for you internet-skydivers.. which is fine with me!


(This post was edited by virgin-burner on Dec 6, 2011, 1:08 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2011, 1:05 PM
Post #205 of 463 (1153 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Any canopy that can be docked on by a wingsuit is by definition lethal.
In reply to:
This one is total crap. The proof is that those that have docked with a WS are not dead.

In fairness, he said "can be docked" not "have docked"?


Quote:
Any canopy that can exceed the parameters of an AAD is by definition lethal.
In reply to:
A more logical thought is that the AAD's had an issue in that they were being used in a manor not considered during the design... Again, an AAD issue, not a canopy issue.

Even more logical is those instances where the pilot out-flew the AAD's parameters on landing.

Quote:
Any canopy that can cause a cutaway from a brake fire is by definition lethal.
In reply to:
More crap. I have seen Ravens cutaway due to a brake fire. And it is not lethal unless the pilot performs incorrectly.

You shot yourself in the foot. You know as well as I do that he is talking about HP canopies spinning you on your back from a premature brake release.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2011, 1:11 PM
Post #206 of 463 (1151 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...but i also knew i've had plenty of altitude before i would hit dirt.
The only way is that you were actually checking your altimeter. Was that the case?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 6, 2011, 1:19 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2011, 1:18 PM
Post #207 of 463 (1148 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1.) i meant "entanglement" of .... main/jumper or reserve/jumper, not entanglement in terms of canopy-collision. check the fatality-list on here, the number is surprisingly high!
Oh...you meant Horseshoe. You guys call that situation an entanglement? What to you CReW guys call an entanglement then? What do you call the collision instance? Just curious.


In reply to:
... if you dont loose altitude awareness pulling higher means more time to work stuff.

Your dependence on "time" just may bite you in the ass on of these days....it's happened to waaaaaay too many people

In reply to:
especially with modern canopies as they seem to snivel forever. your BSR's were probably written in a time where you all jumped rounds that open within 100ft or so. a modern canopy takes ten times as long.
...and you would be wrong on that.


Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 1:20 PM
Post #208 of 463 (1146 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In fairness, he said "can be docked" not "have docked"?

Well if it HAS, then it CAN BE.

Quote:
Even more logical is those instances where the pilot out-flew the AAD's parameters on landing.

Maybe, but the same landing techniques were used under 120 Sabres without issue. The point being that even if I grant you your point, it is STILL not the canopies fault.

Quote:
You shot yourself in the foot. You know as well as I do that he is talking about HP canopies spinning you on your back from a premature brake release.


No I didn't. He said that "Any canopy that can cause a cutaway from a brake fire is by definition lethal." And I have seen a Raven "cause a cutaway".

I have had brake fires on 107 Stiletto's, 96 Velo's, and 88 FX's.... None required a cutaway, most brake fires don't.

He was trying to blame canopies for the faults of the PILOTS.... It is clear he had an agenda and frankly I found most of it to be crap without any basis in reality.


Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 1:27 PM
Post #209 of 463 (1145 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1.) i meant "entanglement" of main/reserve, main/jumper or reserve/jumper, not entanglement in terms of canopy-collision.

That is due to not cutting away, not running out of altitude.

Quote:
2.) well, in that case it was for a hit and rock and i was assigned to pull at 6k, so that's like almost 3x of your "normal" pull-altitude.

And again..... Loss of altitude awareness does not really matter what altitude you are AT... It only matters that you THINK you have enough time.

Quote:
as for A and B, as i said, if you dont loose altitude awareness pulling higher means more time to work stuff.


And if you don't lose altitude awareness it really does not matter. I have chopped from 750-800 feet before, AAD's fire the reserve at 750 feet.

Quote:
especially with modern canopies as they seem to snivel forever.....a modern canopy takes ten times as long.

Again, I have more jumps on 'Modern canopies' than you have jumps. Fact is I most likely have more jumps on old canopies than you have jumps.... you still have not proven your points.

Quote:
no, i said you it doesnt seem to be a problem as it is for you internet-skydivers.. which is fine with me!

Sangi said the same thing.... funny huh?


Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 1:28 PM
Post #210 of 463 (1144 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The only way is that you were actually checking your altimeter.

Wrong, you can also look at the ground.


virgin-burner

Dec 6, 2011, 1:29 PM
Post #211 of 463 (1144 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

if you cutaway your main and say it get's hung up on your helmet; that's not exactly a horseshoe, is it!?

not much crew here, cant comment on that..

i've never jumped a round and dont feel any need to do so.. Tongue

and nope, i didnt check my altimeter; i was very busy with other stuff at the time. but as i pointed out in a later post, KNOWING i pulled at 6k..


virgin-burner

Dec 6, 2011, 1:46 PM
Post #212 of 463 (1137 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

yea-yea, if you like sangi so much, why dont you guys get a room together!?

you can repeat it all you want, it doesnt make it more true. people at his dz voiced their concerns as well.

and pounding on your experience vs. mine only seems to imply that you have nothing else to support YOUR authorative (is that even a word!?) claims than just that.

look, i'm tired of this stupid arguments, i'll happily do the way i was taught. you can jump rsl's, skyhooks all day since you probably will need it, i'm happy with audibles and a what i reckon to be safer pull-altitude.


Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 1:53 PM
Post #213 of 463 (1130 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
yea-yea, if you like sangi so much, why dont you guys get a room together!?

Can't say I know the guy.... I only know that he and you sure act the same based on your posts. And if you can't take a man at his word... Well...?

Quote:
and pounding on your experience vs. mine only seems to imply that you have nothing else to support YOUR authorative (is that even a word!?) claims than just that.

Well, it goes to show that I have 10+ times the experience that you claim to have.

And I have brought valid arguments that you have not answered.

Quote:
look, i'm tired of this stupid arguments

Then maybe you should avoid them?

Quote:
you can jump rsl's, skyhooks all day since you probably will need it,

1. A lame attempt at a personal attack.
2. you clearly have no idea of my position on RSL's
3. I have PROVEN I don't need RSL's by having 7 times the number of malfunctions without one than you have.

Quote:
i'm happy with audibles and a what i reckon to be safer pull-altitude

And it is OK to have an opinion. But you seem to think your opinion is more valid than a guy with 10 times your experience. And that somehow your opinion is right and everyone else is wrong.

I'll put any of your canopy skills up against mine ANY day.

And I'll put my experience up against yours any day.
The wise would bet on me.


(This post was edited by Ron on Dec 6, 2011, 1:54 PM)


virgin-burner

Dec 6, 2011, 2:39 PM
Post #214 of 463 (1119 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

if i throw a PA at you, i bet you will know it.

my opinion on this matter is by having spent almost a day digging through the fatality-list on here. and seeing that your chances are highest when you're either a student or have 1000+ jumps. and a high rate of fatalities in the last class seems to be by gear-problems of sorts.

in a case where a reserve doesnt have enough time to inflate properly and the result is a high-speed impact with the planet underneath you, the assumption that such a fatality could most likely have been prevented - by simply pulling higher and having more time to get a working parachute above your head - is a valid one. you havent proved or disproved that point. and it doesnt take a gazillion jumps to make that assumption. even a guy with zero jumps can come up with that conclusion. your experience doesnt always help, but ignorance is clearly of no help at all.


Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 2:59 PM
Post #215 of 463 (1114 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
if i throw a PA at you, i bet you will know it.

Claiming "you can jump rsl's, skyhooks all day since you probably will need it" is a lame attempt at a PA... Just admit it, everyone else can see it.

Quote:
my opinion on this matter is by having spent almost a day digging through the fatality-list on here

Well, Sangi was not a FATALITY now was he? See, I have been on this board 10? years and been skydiving 18..... BTW you might want to read:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1673856;search_string=2005;#1673856

And http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=869327#869327

So I track all the accidents (not just fatalities) and have for 18 years.... I just don't care to report them anymore.

Quote:
in a case where a reserve doesnt have enough time to inflate properly and the result is a high-speed impact with the planet underneath you, the assumption that such a fatality could most likely have been prevented - by simply pulling higher and having more time to get a working parachute above your head - is a valid one

Not when you are low due to losing track of altitude..... Like I have said, I have CUTAWAY at 750-800 feet.

Quote:
your experience doesnt always help

It is a much better bet than a guy with 10 times LESS experience.

Quote:
but ignorance is clearly of no help at all.

Ah, how cute... another lame attempt at a PA. Crazy


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Dec 6, 2011, 3:06 PM
Post #216 of 463 (1113 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm gonna lock this thread if you kids don't stay on topic.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 6, 2011, 3:31 PM
Post #217 of 463 (1102 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for all you have done and tried to do, Bill.

This is list of actions taken would shame most people in the sport - including myself.


In reply to:

I second that, now and then ya run into guys like BillVon, but not often enough...Cool

What we the 'most people in the sport' CAN do is ....MORE, setting safe examples, talking intelligently to someone too close to the line...


There are a million things WE can & should be doing, maybe if each of us just does a little more we can get the 'safety culture' mindset building.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2011, 3:39 PM
Post #218 of 463 (1100 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In fairness, he said "can be docked" not "have docked"?

Well if it HAS, then it CAN BE.

Quote:
Even more logical is those instances where the pilot out-flew the AAD's parameters on landing.

Maybe, but the same landing techniques were used under 120 Sabres without issue. The point being that even if I grant you your point, it is STILL not the canopies fault.

Quote:
You shot yourself in the foot. You know as well as I do that he is talking about HP canopies spinning you on your back from a premature brake release.


No I didn't. He said that "Any canopy that can cause a cutaway from a brake fire is by definition lethal." And I have seen a Raven "cause a cutaway".

I have had brake fires on 107 Stiletto's, 96 Velo's, and 88 FX's.... None required a cutaway, most brake fires don't.

He was trying to blame canopies for the faults of the PILOTS.... It is clear he had an agenda and frankly I found most of it to be crap without any basis in reality.

OK. I agree on all counts. I read between the lines on the part about the spinning cutaways .


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2011, 3:43 PM
Post #219 of 463 (1097 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The only way is that you were actually checking your altimeter.

Wrong, you can also look at the ground.

OK...you got me in the big scheme of things.
However, the response was to him, not you. He's yet to give us any indication of it so I don't think he has trained his eyes as yet. Hence, the point to the altimeter.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Dec 6, 2011, 3:44 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Dec 6, 2011, 3:53 PM
Post #220 of 463 (1092 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you cutaway your main and say it get's hung up on your helmet; that's not exactly a horseshoe, is it!?
In reply to:
Yes it is. Our worst nightmare.


In reply to:
i've never jumped a round and dont feel any need to do so.. Tongue
LaughLaugh
Can't blame you for that. It would be good to get some idea of what the old folks are talking about, though. I do NOT recommend T-10s.
LaughLaugh


In reply to:
and nope, i didnt check my altimeter; i was very busy with other stuff at the time. but as i pointed out in a later post, KNOWING i pulled at 6k..
And that is the reason I asked. Jumpers often think they have more "time" than they actually do have? It has cause more than one crash. Time distortion is a killer. Time is relative, altitude is absolute.

I strongly suggest that you use the altimeter at crunch time.


Ron

Dec 6, 2011, 4:20 PM
Post #221 of 463 (1078 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
OK...you got me in the big scheme of things.
However, the response was to him, not you. He's yet to give us any indication of it so I don't think he has trained his eyes as yet. Hence, the point to the altimeter.

And you are 100% correct that the Alti is a much better answer.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 6, 2011, 8:33 PM
Post #222 of 463 (1058 views)
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Re: [Ron] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

 

He was trying to blame canopies for the faults of the PILOTS.... It is clear he had an agenda and frankly I found most of it to be crap without any basis in reality.
So, Ron, what is your solution to the problem of jumpers that can't keep up with their canopy killing or injuring themselves? That's my reality.

I can only see two ways: Remove the inexperienced pilots (By Training them) or remove their access to HP Canopies until they have that training.

If there is a third way I'd be very happy to hear it.

Either way is going to take an element of compulsion.

Having canopy courses available doesn't work unless people HAVE to take them. (Witness Virgin Burner et al)

I applaud Bill Von for the difference he's making in his corner of the world but we need a world full of Bill Vons that have the authority to make their words mandatory.

And, for the record I don't have any agenda other than reducing the carnage.


(This post was edited by Marisan on Dec 6, 2011, 8:41 PM)


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 6, 2011, 8:45 PM
Post #223 of 463 (1054 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

For all those people that have sent me their ideas by PM.
There are some really good ones.
Can I ask you to post them on this thread so we can get some discussion going.

I won't post them without your permission.

Don't worry, the flaming doesn't hurt " that " much.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 6, 2011, 8:53 PM
Post #224 of 463 (1046 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

For all of you that wonder why I'm putting myself through all this just watch this video.

Yes I know it wasn't caused by a HP Canopy but the footage on the ground is compellingUnsure

I just don't want one of you to be in this situation in the next week, month, year etc.

http://www.20min.ch/...d=228357&cid=120

Sorry, still can't do clickies.


(This post was edited by Marisan on Dec 6, 2011, 10:13 PM)


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Dec 7, 2011, 12:13 AM
Post #225 of 463 (1033 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For all those people that have sent me their ideas by PM.
There are some really good ones.
Can I ask you to post them on this thread so we can get some discussion going.
A simple canopy progression license, required independent of skydiving licenses, but cannot progress to a higher loading until these are demonstrated. They can have the A/B/C/D scale as long as that does not get too confusing. (Canopy Pilot A,B,C, or D[unlimited])

A- up to 1/1 loading: demonstrate full stalls on risers and brakes, full control input porpoising, coordinated wingovers, spirals to recover to a heading, patterns to a spot landing. 100' square must be able to show good judgement in landing patterns and traffic. flight and patterns and landings on rears, etc.

B- up to 1.5/1 loading: All the above (not rear landings) redone at 1.5/1 plus intro to accelerated landings,

C-up to 2/1 loading: All the above at 2/1 loading plus advanced canopy course AND swooping course if wanted. (can't swoop without)

D-2.5/1 to unlimited All above at 2.5/1 loading plus advanced swooping course.


Just my idea, it's incomplete.


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