Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive?

 


gs8613  (C License)

Dec 5, 2011, 4:12 AM
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Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? Can't Post

After an argument at the DZ this weekend, I thought I'd post it on here.

The argument started out with: which canopy would be more aggressive?
A Crossfire2 loaded at 1.44 or a Safire2 loaded at 1.55

I'd guess the xfire just had it at these loadings, but at what point would they become similar?

They'd be a Xfire2 139 and a Safire2 129 with an exit weight of 200lbs


(This post was edited by gs8613 on Dec 5, 2011, 6:52 AM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Dec 5, 2011, 10:07 AM
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Re: [gs8613] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After an argument at the DZ this weekend, I thought I'd post it on here.

The argument started out with: which canopy would be more aggressive?
A Crossfire2 loaded at 1.44 or a Safire2 loaded at 1.55

I'd guess the xfire just had it at these loadings, but at what point would they become similar?

They'd be a Xfire2 139 and a Safire2 129 with an exit weight of 200lbs
Crossfire2.


beowulf  (C License)

Dec 5, 2011, 12:43 PM
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Re: [gs8613] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but at what point would they become similar?

They are two different designs so at no point would the ever be similar. The Crossfire 2 is a more aggressive design then the Safire 2.


EppyNephrine  (F 111)

Dec 5, 2011, 2:01 PM
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Re: [beowulf] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is a Honda Civic more aggressive than a Ford Viper if you only step on the pedal a little bit?


beowulf  (C License)

Dec 5, 2011, 2:04 PM
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Re: [EppyNephrine] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

umm Dodge Viper and I don't think there would be much of a similarity in the two. But I don't know as I have never driven a Dodge Viper.


EppyNephrine  (F 111)

Dec 5, 2011, 2:06 PM
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Re: [beowulf] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

Haha fuck, my bad. I'm not much of a car person as you can tell Blush


gs8613  (C License)

Dec 5, 2011, 2:22 PM
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Re: [EppyNephrine] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

But isn't changing planform similar in many practical ways to a downsize, Faster turns, faster dives, longer recovery arc etc...?
At what point does a Safire2 become the more aggressive canopy? SA119, 109, 99?


hparrish  (D 25090)

Dec 6, 2011, 2:09 PM
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Re: [gs8613] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

A Saphire II loaded at 3:1 will be much more aggressive than a Crossfire II loaded at 1.4:1

Who cares when the tipping point is. You shouldnt load up canopies that arent designed to be. So its a mute point.


Martini  (D 23756)

Dec 6, 2011, 8:12 PM
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Re: [hparrish] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

That'd be a moot point. But more to the point, who determines what loading is acceptable? Manufacturer guidelines are obviously and necessarily conservative. I jump an original Sabre at 1.9+, somewhat beyond it's design loading I believe. Who's to say I shouldn't do that? As far as I'm concerned it's entirely up to me. It's certainly not your decision.

One thing we agree on, who cares what the tipping point is. A highly loaded but conservative canopy vs a lighter loaded aggressive canopy, completely up to the user. And no two people will have the same opinion of where the curves cross if in fact they do.


YISkyDive  (D License)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:57 AM
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Re: [gs8613] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After an argument at the DZ this weekend, I thought I'd post it on here.

The argument started out with: which canopy would be more aggressive?
A Crossfire2 loaded at 1.44 or a Safire2 loaded at 1.55

I'd guess the xfire just had it at these loadings, but at what point would they become similar?

They'd be a Xfire2 139 and a Safire2 129 with an exit weight of 200lbs

That's an interesting argument. A Sabre/Safire loaded at 1.4 versus a xf2 loaded at 1.4 makes for an easy argument but I think in this case you have to dig deeper.

On the Xf2 linetwists (to some extent), packing, turbulence, low turns and accuracy will be important areas of consideration. On the Safire class canopies - - everything would be milder except for slamming into the ground (IMO) - smaller canopy, less drag and probably more speed when in the power zone so the consequences of gross pilot error will be magnified.

Chances are - if someone doesn't think a person is ready to jump a xf2 at 1.44 then that same person will not be able to make the argument they can jump a safire at 1.55. Tough call with a lot of subjective input I'm sure but any semi elliptical canopy can still be a bear - as far as I'm concerned Sabre2, Safire2, Ntiro/Nitrons are all high performance canopies at the right wingloading. And remember: once you get below 150 every canopy is a high performance parachute because of the shortened lines and reduced drag.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Dec 7, 2011, 4:45 PM
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Re: [gs8613] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

What defines aggressiveness of the canopy?????
Is it determind by its dive, turn rate, how it openes, or how far it can swoop????

Let me ask you this which is more agressive canopy? Jvx or katana?? Cause same sized katana will turn faster and dive more than jvx will.

No matter how high you load safire at it will still fly like a safire, and how low you load up crossfire it will fly like crossfire.

The term "agressive is very vague and very subjective, just remember that at any wingloading low turn will send you to hospital and may kill you if you are lucky.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Dec 7, 2011, 4:48 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Dec 7, 2011, 5:01 PM
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Re: [hparrish] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So its a mute point.

Then I'm not going to say a thing.


DaVinciflies

Dec 7, 2011, 5:25 PM
Post #13 of 15 (1358 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So its a mute point.

Then I'm not going to say a thing.

LaughLaugh


hparrish  (D 25090)

Dec 7, 2011, 7:55 PM
Post #14 of 15 (1334 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

Moot Mute.............Funny though.


aaroncosbey  (D 108444)

Dec 9, 2011, 6:18 AM
Post #15 of 15 (1251 views)
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Re: [gs8613] Fully elliptical loaded lower than semi-elliptical: which is more aggressive? [In reply to] Can't Post

U should have bought the Xfire 139...

Amazing canopy Wink



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