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HP From an Old Fart

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 2, 2011, 10:58 AM
Post #151 of 463 (1237 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

>Well maybe they SHOULD have a TSO given their potential to kill jumpers.

Naah.

>I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or
>refine my idea.

We leave the TSO system like it is and increase HP canopy training opportunities.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 2, 2011, 12:45 PM
Post #152 of 463 (1215 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I expect those of you still in the sport to either suggest something different or
>refine my idea.

We leave the TSO system like it is and increase HP canopy training opportunities.

I'd agree. TSO'd mains will only drive the price of canopies up dramatically and, probably not change anything. Training, on the other hand, has an outside chance of affecting change. Cool


Trae  (Student)

Dec 2, 2011, 1:48 PM
Post #153 of 463 (1199 views)
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Re: [Calvin19] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "The only loss of control I see is -YOUR- loss of reality. Skydiving changed old man, for better or worse it changed and left your giant slow parachutes behind. This happens in every action sport out there. Someone finds a way to make it safer, faster, stronger, longer, and more fun. Though not always in that order.
It seems the people that can make it better are trying. It's getting better every day. New requirements at dropzones and more BS in the BSR.

.........................................

Another reality spinnerCrazy
What Marisan is suggesting doesn't sound like a loss of reality to me , quite the opposite.
It sounds like good old common sense.
And like you say its happening anyway...but very slowly...dumb speed.

It might be different in other parts of the world , but here we listen to the old guys , the survivors are smart as @#$%. and they usually have our best interests at heart.

Most of it sounds like ......"Just wait a minute, have a think. Not yet. OK MOVE !."
How many of you young guys can do that? ie take command. Old guys do it naturally if you work with them and they'll train you without you knowing it.

If YOU said "Just wait a minute ... etc" I'd tell you to piss off.
If an old guy says it ..I listen.

I reckon you'd tell the old guy to piss off too.
Thats your disconnect from reality right there.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 2, 2011, 8:04 PM
Post #154 of 463 (1173 views)
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Re: [Trae] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Say what you want. Call me an old man living in the past. Call me a boring old fart. Call me someone that wants to drag you back to my past. I DON'T CARE!

I DO CARE about jumpers dying needlessly.

You HAVE to change your training because the training you are offering now ISN'T WORKING!

Before you say it is consider the fatality rate.
If you say the training on offer is adequate, well, why are so many people dying.

I can only see one reason:

The canopies being jumped far out perform any training on offer.

If jumpers with thousands of jumps are dying what makes you think you are immune?

Every single one of you jumping HP Canopies for enough jumps has had an " Oh Shit" moment. If you say you haven't, well, I don't believe you. I've had two " Oh Shit" moments where I didn't think I might die. I knew I was dead! One was gear related and the other was a 2 man clusterfuck!
Neither were canopy related. But I've been there knocking on the Grim Reaper's door.

You guys have to change the training. You have to make it compulsory, not just available.

Otherwise, there are plenty of Old Farts (I wear that badge with pride) who will say " I Told You So"


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 2, 2011, 10:32 PM
Post #155 of 463 (1162 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

>You HAVE to change your training because the training you are offering now ISN'T
>WORKING! . . .You guys have to change the training.

No, he doesn't.

If you want to change it - change it. If not, then accept that you can't be bothered, and that no one else is going to do your work for you.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 3, 2011, 12:04 AM
Post #156 of 463 (1153 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>You HAVE to change your training because the training you are offering now ISN'T
>WORKING! . . .You guys have to change the training.

No, he doesn't.

If you want to change it - change it. If not, then accept that you can't be bothered, and that no one else is going to do your work for you.

So what you are saying is let Dawinian Selection be the exam and the Grim Reaper be the examiner?


virgin-burner

Dec 3, 2011, 3:00 AM
Post #157 of 463 (1150 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

dude, english is like my 3rd language, and even I understand that this is NOT what billvon said.. LaughLaughLaugh


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Dec 3, 2011, 9:45 AM
Post #158 of 463 (1133 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

>So what you are saying is let Dawinian Selection be the exam and the Grim Reaper be
>the examiner?

Nope. I am saying let YOU be the examiner. Your the one who wants change - so make the change.

Or, if you can't be bothered, then don't do it. And the next time you start a rant about how no one is doing anything to accomplish your goals, you'll be able to look in the mirror to find the person to blame.


DaVinciflies

Dec 3, 2011, 10:34 AM
Post #159 of 463 (1127 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've had two " Oh Shit" moments where I didn't think I might die. I knew I was dead!

So you actually died twice?

To die once might be misfortune, to die twice looks like carelessness.


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Dec 3, 2011, 3:10 PM
Post #160 of 463 (1101 views)
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Re: [Trae] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If YOU said "Just wait a minute ... etc" I'd tell you to piss off.
If an old guy says it ..I listen.


You may have misunderstood what my point was.

I watched this thread from the beginning and read every post pretty much as they were posted. I listened, read the other threads, and waited a long time to reply in this thread to make sure I understood what he was trying to say. Even after I read all his posts on the subject I came to the conclusion that he has a "disconnect" from what is going on here. What I see is an older more experienced skydiver with an illusion of STOPPING canopy landing fatalities. The bottom line is skydiving, especially student skydiving training, NEED more training. Marisan, and maybe i'm wrong here, thinks that some governing body should effectively "ban" high performance canopies to stop this.

Seeing the extremely experienced canopy pilots with thousands of HP landings die is just what backs my point. The "HP canopy" cutoff line is so fuzzy it cannot be drawn. Around ~70% of fatalities in the last 10 years were caused by things OTHER than landings. Maybe another 10 percent can be attributed to high-performance canopy use and flight.

No one in their right mind would ignore experienced jumpers, or allow darwinism to be an argument against Marisan, so please do not confuse anything I say with that or a chronic disrespect for older or elderlyTongue skydiving veterans.

Quote:
Most of it(Marisan's posts?) sounds like ......"Just wait a minute, have a think. Not yet. OK MOVE !."
How many of you young guys can do that? ie take command. Old guys do it naturally if you work with them and they'll train you without you knowing it.
If YOU said "Just wait a minute ... etc" I'd tell you to piss off.
If an old guy says it ..I listen.

And I would not expect you to listen to me, nor do I claim to have the knowledge to teach high performance parachute landings.
Quote:

It might be different in other parts of the world , but here we listen to the old guys , the survivors are smart as @#$%. and they usually have our best interests at heart.
100% agree, but I do not think that someone who lacks a significant history of "high performance" canopy flight, after an entire industry becomes based on it, should have any credibility to ban it.
I understand that the "banning" part of it is mostly for dramatic impact. But anything more than implementing a moderately weighted (though, more than there is now) canopy flight education and regulation regiment is not possible or desirable.

(This post was edited by Calvin19 on Dec 3, 2011, 3:11 PM)


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 3, 2011, 6:35 PM
Post #161 of 463 (1081 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>So what you are saying is let Dawinian Selection be the exam and the Grim Reaper be
>the examiner?

Nope. I am saying let YOU be the examiner. Your the one who wants change - so make the change.

Or, if you can't be bothered, then don't do it. And the next time you start a rant about how no one is doing anything to accomplish your goals, you'll be able to look in the mirror to find the person to blame.

Hi Billvon,

I don't jump anymore and I have no intention to jump again.
So, therefore, I have no credibility to train anyone in a discipline I don't understand.
I am, however, pointing out a problem that I can see. That is people dying under HP Canopies that are fully open and functioning as per their design.

Back in my day, people died because:
1/ they forgot where they were and what they were doing (ie nothing out)
2/ Reserve entanglement with Capewells or other gear malfunctions.
3/ Pushing the limits and not understanding the dangers. (ie my flatmate/room mate nearly died in the early days of CRW)

So, what did we do to stop this carnage?

In the case of number 1, AAD's came into mainstream use instead of just being for students.

In the case of number two: Gear evolved especially with Bill Booth's invention of the three ring system.

In the case of number three: Well not much can be done about this. Shit does happen but we learnt from this and tried to stop the shit from happening. (I know this is what you guys are doing now to try and stop HP Canopy deaths)

The problem is that the fatality rate from HP Canopies is increasing year by year.

So what you guys are doing about the major cause of death isn't working.
Does anyone disagree with that?

I suggested that the major beneficiaries of the downsizing craze (The Manufacturers )should help to pay for the training necessary to ensure that the people jumping their canopies are as safe as they can be.

The closest I have seen to this idea on this thread is that training should be available. Well It IS available but it doesn't seem to be doing anything to lower the rate of deaths and injuries.

So if the training was COMPULSORY and paid for by the people that benefit most wouldn't that be a step ahead?

Lots of posters on this thread have commented on my wish to have these canopies banned. I have said several times that, realistically, that is not going to happen within the skydiving world.
I feel that they are causing so much damage to the sport that they should not have been allowed in the first place. But that's just my opinion and opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

Just remember that, to the regulators, Skydiving is just a pimple on the arse of a flea. Annoy them enough and they will do something to get rid of the annoyance.

So, the ball is back in your court. You guys, that can actually do something, need to look in the mirror and ask yourselves " What can I do to stop this problem" (unless you don't see it as a problem and accept the deaths and injuries as mere collateral damage to your enjoyment)

Flaming an Old Fart like me who is merely pointing out the problem is doing nothing to stop the carnage.


Calvin19  (D 29712)

Dec 3, 2011, 8:09 PM
Post #162 of 463 (1073 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I suggested that the major beneficiaries of the downsizing craze (The Manufacturers )should help to pay for the training necessary to ensure that the people jumping their canopies are as safe as they can be. if the training was COMPULSORY and paid for by the people that benefit most wouldn't that be a step ahead?
Nobody blames the motorcycle companies for the people killed riding. Maybe now and then Ducati sponsors a safety camp, but I don't think that happens much.
Quote:
Just remember that, to the regulators, Skydiving is just a pimple on the arse of a flea. Annoy them enough and they will do something to get rid of the annoyance.
You know, there IS something to be said about that. If the feds are annoyed enough by bad press they get from skydiving, they -can- intervene. You mentioned in another thread that people should "buy big soft canopies" because the feds were going to regulate your parachute choice. I find that very, very far fetched.

Marisan, you seem to have a vendetta against anything that can flare. While I AGREE that things need to be done to decrease the landing fatalities, I do not think that you spamming the board with what borders on hateful intolerance will do anything but annoy people like me who spend too much time online.

As has beens said a couple times, if you do not like the way things are going (mind you, in something you no longer have any stock in, save nostalgia) then by all means start a canopy clinic organization. Talk to the USPA, build a canopy pilot rating system. But dramatic complaining online is not helping anything.


airtwardo  (D License)

Dec 4, 2011, 8:45 AM
Post #163 of 463 (1054 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

I suggested that the major beneficiaries of the downsizing craze (The Manufacturers )should help to pay for the training necessary to ensure that the people jumping their canopies are as safe as they can be.


In reply to:

That would be a logistical nightmare and probably be ineffective because of that.

It's the buyers responsibility to make sure they are qualified on the equipment in the way they will use it...

If you have a few hrs of 172 time and hit the lotto, you can go buy a Pitts.

Obviously it isn't the manufacturer that pays for your aerobatic training....YOU DO, because you want to play in the hi-performance playground-you do what it takes to survive there.

That's common sense and a pretty basic element of 'safety culture'.

~THAT's what 'we' are missing...

Compulsory training and set standards for operator performance will probably be what eventually happens...
That would be a great step one, leave a step two in the drawer until success or failures figures show a change in the trend.

My opinion is, the technology of our sport moves so fast that the 'generally accepted guidelines' can't keep up...
No doubt there are numerous factors that come into play regarding why our 'safety culture' is what it is.

But we're gonna have to figure it out and address it if we want to stay relatively unregulated by the federal grumpy guys.


Trae  (Student)

Dec 4, 2011, 1:54 PM
Post #164 of 463 (1027 views)
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Re: [Calvin19] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "100% agree, but I do not think that someone who lacks a significant history of "high performance" canopy flight, after an entire industry becomes based on it, should have any credibility to ban it. "........................"But dramatic complaining online is not helping anything. "
................................................

In a strange way its is helping us . Your more respectful replies have made it easier to listen to you and hear YOUR wisdom.

I'm thinking , what Marisan is showing us, is the very real possibility that a group of whuffo's could make an attempt to ban things in our sport.

We're supposed to be self-policing.
Marisan's a policeman from way back. he was a member of a skydiving community that was truly self policing.

WE're not doing a very good job of it with the HP canopies/newbie/training slow burn cluster@#$%.

I happen to know more than a few people, who would love to blow our sport out of the sky.
The reason being, that they have lost loved ones that went skydiving and didn't come back alive. Some of them have to wipe their kids arse for the rest of their life. Some of them are skydivers that were mislead by go-too-fast fools.

When these people went to the DZ , much later, after their grieving process allowed them to face the place, what they saw disgusted them. I was embarrassed to be a skydiver in their presence.

They hate us with a vengence we might not understand.
How many more innocent civilians are going to be killed by being allowed to fly canopies they are not ready for and have not been trained for ?

Most of these dead kids have parents, siblings, cousins , a mass of relatives, plus friends, that love them beyond life. They can't ever forget what happened to them.

Marisan is just warning us , those people I mentioned don't bother with the warning.
WE can duck and weave all we like , but we are collectively to blame unless we do something to stop this . Some people are personally to blame.

Have you killed or injured an innocent kid today, through your negligence, at your DZ?

There might not be any selfpolicing there yet.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 4, 2011, 7:38 PM
Post #165 of 463 (997 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

 

If you have a few hrs of 172 time and hit the lotto, you can go buy a Pitts.

Obviously it isn't the manufacturer that pays for your aerobatic training....YOU DO, because you want to play in the hi-performance playground-you do what it takes to survive there.

That's common sense and a pretty basic element of 'safety culture'.

~THAT's what 'we' are missing...
.
In the general aviation community that " Safety Culture" is what stops people buying a Pitts Special and flying it without the necessary training.

It is possible for the new Pitts owner to sneak out to the airfield and fly his new Pitts Special without the rating. 5 minutes later he is (To steal Aggie Dave's sig line) "Dead surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
What happens then? A major investigation eventuates, lessons are learned, regulations are overhauled and (maybe) sanctions are applied. This happens even with injuries.

Because Jumping is so small a facet of general aviation the FAA has allowed you to be self regulating. This means You have to conduct the major investigation ,learn the lessons, overhaul the regulations and apply sanctions if necessary. Even with injuries.

Then you have to collate the statistics to see if a new trend is occurring.

Right now you have no statistics on injuries and death.
There is a major gut feel, however, that something is seriously wrong.

I know jumpers are rebels and hate rules. Hell that's one of the reasons I started jumping.

One of the things that has come very strongly from this thread is that training must be adequate and COMPULSORY!

The manufacturers MUST provide a Pilot's Operational Handbook with each canopy just as general aviation manufacturers must provide one with each aircraft they sell.

This handbook MUST tell of any potential nasties found during the test flights. They must tell of the parameters of the test flights with the warning that, if you go outside of those parameters, you are effectively being a test pilot and could quite easily be killed or injured by that which you don't know!

If you want to self regulate well you actually HAVE to self regulate.

If you don't (and I've said it numerous times before) someone Will do it for you.

Come on you guys. You CAN do it. You CAN build a safety culture in Skydiving.

Start today!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011, 7:49 PM
Post #166 of 463 (995 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

>It is possible for the new Pitts owner to sneak out to the airfield and fly his new Pitts
>Special without the rating. 5 minutes later he is (To steal Aggie Dave's sig line) "Dead
>surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
>What happens then? A major investigation eventuates, lessons are learned,
>regulations are overhauled and (maybe) sanctions are applied. This happens even with
>injuries.

No, it doesn't - not when the final conclusion was "he was an idiot." The Bonanza wasn't called the "doctor killer" for no good reason, and nowadays it's the Cirrus that's killing people disproportionately. It's a sexy plane that people with C152 skills can buy and quite quickly get in over their heads.

People with more money than sense regularly buy aircraft they can't handle and kill themselves. Indeed, on a fatality per-participant basis, general aviation is more dangerous than skydiving.

So if your point is "you have to self-police to get to the safety level of general aviation" - we've already done it. And if the FAA really is going to get involved with something, it's going to be general aviation, so they can bring it up to the safety level of skydiving.

(Needless to say, neither is a safe sport at the end of the day.)


(This post was edited by billvon on Dec 4, 2011, 9:13 PM)


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 4, 2011, 8:07 PM
Post #167 of 463 (991 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Billvon,
And what is the final conclusion when someone hooks in and kills himself.
That he was an idiot and deserved it so we don't have to do or learn anything?

Looking at the figures in the "Canopy with the most Fatalities" thread it seems we have our own forktailed doctor killers


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 4, 2011, 8:38 PM
Post #168 of 463 (988 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

>And what is the final conclusion when someone hooks in and kills himself.

Depends on the circumstances. Often it is someone who does a last minute avoidance maneuver. Often it is someone who wants to hook it in to get a really cool landing and screws up. Sometimes it's due to turbulence, or gear problems, or not being able to see well enough. All too often we never know which of the above it is, because there's no one to tell us what happened.

>That he was an idiot and deserved it so we don't have to do or learn anything?

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes we see it coming and no one can do anything to stop it. There are a few people on this forum like that.

>Looking at the figures in the "Canopy with the most Fatalities" thread it seems we
>have our own forktailed doctor killers

Yep. If you want to kill yourself, there are several canopies that excel at that.


DaVinciflies

Dec 5, 2011, 10:39 AM
Post #169 of 463 (961 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Come on you guys. You CAN do it. You CAN build a safety culture in Skydiving.

Start today!

If you're really that interested in doing something - then do something.

If you're not going to take action then this is just more hot air, and there's plenty of that in these forums.

FWIW I do like your idea of having to qualify to move up to a different canopy - I think it would force the hot shots to work hard to be able to fly the "trophy canopies".


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Dec 5, 2011, 2:53 PM
Post #170 of 463 (934 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Come on you guys. You CAN do it. You CAN build a safety culture in Skydiving.

Start today!

If you're really that interested in doing something - then do something.

Seems to me, He's doing something by starting this thread and taking the fight to the street (well, virtual street anyway). Sometimes the best way to affect change is to become a "squeaky gear". Marisan is under attack by those who disagree with him. ... thats ok by me, it just adds to the conversation. Hes also been under fire in this thread by those who don't seem to want change. Those are the attacks Im worried about. Unsure

Marisan has nothing (personally) to gain by his actions/postings here. I applaud his effort!!
SmileSmile


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Dec 5, 2011, 3:15 PM
Post #171 of 463 (926 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Another point that I have been thinking for a while,
How many deaths per skydive statistic is from the old times and now days.

Bryan Burke mention locals in Skydive Arizona are 1/346.667 to die in a skydive, and locals 1/67.829
Now that's a lot of skydives.

Back in the days how many skydives actually occur in a year and what would be the probability of likely to die during a skydive. Maybe we are actually a lot more safer than we where back in the day, even with this high performance canopy.

Also, I know Icarus has a lot of information on canopy training on their website, free of charge to anyone who has access to internet.

Any DZO or jumper could print them off and bring them to the DZ.


DaVinciflies

Dec 5, 2011, 4:32 PM
Post #172 of 463 (908 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seems to me, He's doing something by starting this thread and taking the fight to the street ....

It's all been talked about ad nauseam. He is not doing anything new. It's just a waste of time.

I'm just suggesting that he take action of some kind instead of talking about it if he really is that bothered by the status quo.


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 5, 2011, 6:37 PM
Post #173 of 463 (891 views)
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Re: [DaVinciflies] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Seems to me, He's doing something by starting this thread and taking the fight to the street ....

It's all been talked about ad nauseam. He is not doing anything new. It's just a waste of time.

I'm just suggesting that he take action of some kind instead of talking about it if he really is that bothered by the status quo.

For about the 5th time!
I don't jump anymore.
I have no intention of jumping anymore
I don't have the knowledge or authority to do something about it.
I don't even live in your country.
You, however DO jump.
You have the knowledge and authority.

I handed off safety in this sport to you guys when I gave up.

And what the fuck have you guys done with the responsibility that I and all of the other old farts passed down to you?

I'll tell you what you've done. Sweet Fuck All!

You either:
1/ Deny there is a problem.
2/ Say it doesn't apply to me.
3/ Say you can't do anything about it.

Well there is a problem, it does apply to you and you fucking well CAN do something about it.
There has been thread after thread on this subject and I'm sure there will be many more. It will continue until YOU guys man up and sort out the problem. Only YOU can do it!

Now go and talk to that guy with the " Mad Skillz" and tell him that he actually isn't that skilled. (Refer him to the incident thread if he doubts you)
Point out what the body of someone that bounces looks like and that you REALLY REALLY DON'T want to see that again!

If that doesn't work talk to the DZ Safety people. (Point out the amount of paperwork that they, and the DZO, will have to do when the inevitable happens.)

As a last resort, refuse to jump with the fuckwit.
See how long he likes paying for a turbine to altitude all by himself.

The solution is in YOUR hands.
So do something about it unless you consider the Incident Thread as Bounce Porn.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 5, 2011, 7:30 PM
Post #174 of 463 (879 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

>I handed off safety in this sport to you guys when I gave up.

What did you do?

>I'll tell you what you've done. Sweet Fuck All!

Again, what did you do?


Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 5, 2011, 7:33 PM
Post #175 of 463 (878 views)
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Re: [billvon] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>I handed off safety in this sport to you guys when I gave up.

What did you do?

>I'll tell you what you've done. Sweet Fuck All!

Again, what did you do?

The more relevant question billvon is: what are YOU doing?

Oh sorry I've already answered that!


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