Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
non drag/horseshoe malfunctions

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

impossiblelove  (B License)

Nov 28, 2011, 2:41 PM
Post #1 of 31 (3135 views)
Shortcut
non drag/horseshoe malfunctions Can't Post

anyone have the desire to share their experiences with horseshoe mals? in particular, any which occurred with you ultimately tangled in a ball of lines, risers, and locked bag after cutting away...


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 28, 2011, 4:50 PM
Post #2 of 31 (3059 views)
Shortcut
Re: [impossiblelove] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

Deployed my p/c through a camera wing once. Ended up with my bag laying on the back side of the wing under tension from the p/c and stows coming undone. Thought for a moment about detaching the wing and hoping for the best, but decided against it knowing that it just might become a bigger mess and still not clear.

Dumped the reserve into it and it cleared just fine. After reserve deployment, I cut away the main as the weight of the bag pulled the p/c back through the wing and it was deploying behind me.

I've seen many horseshoes on video and one thing stands out. The longer it stays there in freefall, the bigger the mess gets. For that reason, I believe getting a reserve out FAST gives the jumper the best odds of a clean deployment and survival.


JohnRich  (D License)

Nov 28, 2011, 7:41 PM
Post #3 of 31 (3020 views)
Shortcut
Re: [impossiblelove] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
anyone have the desire to share their experiences with horseshoe mals? in particular, any which occurred with you ultimately tangled in a ball of lines, risers, and locked bag after cutting away...

I don't think you'll find many people with that experience, because they're probably all... dead.


impossiblelove  (B License)

Nov 28, 2011, 7:46 PM
Post #4 of 31 (3013 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

how to best ensure that your reserve has clear airspace to deploy? i've found a few vids where the jumper works like hell to gather everything in after cutting away before pulling reserve, even though he was tangles in lines and bag from head to toe. i see what you are saying, slowing down and being pulled upright by the inflated reserve stops the mess from getting any messier, but ensuring that there is clean air behind you seems like it would be a main concern...
i had a nasty incident on my 55th jump last month, was hesitant to post bc i've gotten LOTS of great advice and guidance from elders at my dz and pretty much figured out what went wrong, but i finally decided to expand my research and see what others have done in similar situations


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 28, 2011, 9:03 PM
Post #5 of 31 (2989 views)
Shortcut
Re: [impossiblelove] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing I've noticed is that anything dragging along above you is not just static. It dances and bounces around wildly, looking for something fun to entangle with. Horseshoes, or even PC's in tow are scary!Shocked


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 29, 2011, 3:25 AM
Post #6 of 31 (2931 views)
Shortcut
Re: [impossiblelove] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
how to best ensure that your reserve has clear airspace to deploy? i've found a few vids where the jumper works like hell to gather everything in after cutting away before pulling reserve, even though he was tangles in lines and bag from head to toe. i see what you are saying, slowing down and being pulled upright by the inflated reserve stops the mess from getting any messier, but ensuring that there is clean air behind you seems like it would be a main concern...
i had a nasty incident on my 55th jump last month, was hesitant to post bc i've gotten LOTS of great advice and guidance from elders at my dz and pretty much figured out what went wrong, but i finally decided to expand my research and see what others have done in similar situations

I wasn't saying that the reserve lifting you vertical and slowing you down keeps the mess from getting bigger. If the reserve has deployed cleanly, the problem is pretty much solved. I was saying that the longer you stay in freefall with your main bag and lines flopping around on your back, the more lines & risers will come unstowed, possibly even the bag locking stows - all casusing the mess to get bigger and bigger, and creating a greater snagging hazard when you do finally dump your reserve.

As for trying to clear the mess before dumping, I don't think that's a great idea. Spending more time at terminal as the mess grows isn't on my calendar. Maybe if I could see that the crap is reachable I might give it a (quick) try, but I think the odds of making things worse are also there, and the altitude you would lose during the effort may be the altitude you need to get a clean reserve in the event of an entanglement with the malfunctioning main.

Reserves are outfitted with free bags and extra wide bridles (and in some cases even drag-inducing bridle pockets) that are (hopefully) capable of deploying the reserve in the event of an entanglement with the main or with you. That's why they are designed the way they are. Will it work every time a reserve entangles with a horseshoe? Probably not. But spending the rest of your life screwing around with the crap on your back isn't a good option. You'll likely end up as an incident report using that logic.

Just out of curiosity, what was your "nasty incident" and how did it happen?


Glitch  (D 10834)

Nov 29, 2011, 5:30 AM
Post #7 of 31 (2907 views)
Shortcut
Re: [impossiblelove] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the jumper works like hell to gather everything in after cutting away before pulling reserve... ...but ensuring that there is clean air behind you seems like it would be a main concern...

One of the rules you should be following, that was written in blood, is that you should not attempt mid-air rigging. Unsure
Too many have bounced trying....


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 29, 2011, 6:43 AM
Post #8 of 31 (2878 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Reserves are outfitted with free bags and extra wide bridles (and in some cases even drag-inducing bridle pockets) that are (hopefully) capable of deploying the reserve in the event of an entanglement with the main or with you.

That cannot be counted on, please see starting at time 3:50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAqiuruC09Y


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 29, 2011, 8:04 AM
Post #9 of 31 (2855 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydiverek] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Reserves are outfitted with free bags and extra wide bridles (and in some cases even drag-inducing bridle pockets) that are (hopefully) capable of deploying the reserve in the event of an entanglement with the main or with you.

That cannot be counted on, please see starting at time 3:50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAqiuruC09Y

Which is exactly why I said in my reply....

"Will it work every time a reserve entangles with a horseshoe? Probably not."

However they do sometimes work and wasting time futilely trying to collect a horseshoed main is always a bad idea.

BTW, the video you linked to is ancient. My Voodoo has extra pockets on the bridle that create a lot more drag than the one in that video. Not sure if it would work any better, but it certainly wouldn't work any worse.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 29, 2011, 9:39 AM
Post #10 of 31 (2823 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BTW, the video you linked to is ancient. My Voodoo has extra pockets on the bridle that create a lot more drag than the one in that video. Not sure if it would work any better, but it certainly wouldn't work any worse.

Pretty sure that bridle assistor pockets are more ancient than that video.Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 29, 2011, 9:56 AM
Post #11 of 31 (2806 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

My Voodoo has extra pockets on the bridle that create a lot more drag than the one in that video.

In reply to:

My rig does not, but even if it did I wouldn't consider there being enough drag on a bridle to pull the bag out of some of today's tighter rigs...especially in the case of a total on the main.

I think a long wide bridle is a good idea in theory, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it working.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 29, 2011, 10:05 AM
Post #12 of 31 (2798 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My Voodoo has extra pockets on the bridle that create a lot more drag than the one in that video.

In reply to:

My rig does not, but even if it did I wouldn't consider there being enough drag on a bridle to pull the bag out of some of today's tighter rigs...especially in the case of a total on the main.

I think a long wide bridle is a good idea in theory, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it working.

Another reason not to cram canopies into the smallest possible container.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 29, 2011, 10:15 AM
Post #13 of 31 (2794 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My Voodoo has extra pockets on the bridle that create a lot more drag than the one in that video.

In reply to:



I think a long wide bridle is a good idea in theory, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it working.

Nor did I suggest that. Which brings us to the next logical question. Is there a bridle as yet invented that WOULD do the job?


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Nov 29, 2011, 10:16 AM
Post #14 of 31 (2792 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

good point about not letting things get worse and also about not burning alt. "fixing something"
I towed a pilot chute back in the transition days of gear,,,,

on a piggyback with belly band pouch and hand deployed PC from that pouch.

well the bridle ran from the pouch , around the right hip, into the bottom right corner of the container, and on up under a flap to the single pin closure. ( steel pin nylon closing loop)

I twisted the belly band when gearing up and found out about it one second after i pulled...ShockedCrazyUnsure
which was plenty under 3,000 feet. as that was the practice of the times, Pre-AADs...

anyway the twist in the webbing effectively trapped the bridle but the pull from the pilot chute was strong... strong enough to pull the bridle through the twist, and to extract my closing pin..
container is now open...

i'm hanging head down AND feet down from my hip AND i'm spinning. I sense the pull from my hip and quickly snatch at it, thinking the bridle was caught on a buckle or on the corner of the container..
quickly glance down and the pea gravel was under me.... and it was Big... Like i'm used to seeing, as i'm setting up on an accuracy shot...Unimpressed
whoa... i squared away in the air, getting flat and FELT.. what i realized was my Main D Bag.. Hitting me on the backs of my thighs

I immediately thought.. " it's clear Right NOW!!!! over my shoulder blades!! and i pulled my blast handle reserve activation device!! ShockedCoolTongueWink Bang!!!! i stop...hummmph...PirateUnsurePirate
i'm under an open and intact 26 foot round reserve... i'm about 600 feet off the ground.. and i just ended a very interesting freefall...
I look around me and i see suspension lines,,, apex lines from my round main.. and a main d bag hanging just under my feet... still closed by 2 or maybe 3 line stows.. i carefully drew the bag to myself, and stuffed it between my legs.. landed , but not a standing landing.. 15 or 20 seconds later...
felt like i did well , NOT to just PULL reserve.. while i was head low AND spinning..
and to rather CREATE the open channel of air above my reserve container by using a second and a halfs worth of altitude to better enhance my changes of getting a good reserve

your mileage may vary...

jmy
a 3914
nscr 1817
4 stack 930


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Nov 29, 2011, 10:24 AM
Post #15 of 31 (2789 views)
Shortcut
Re: [skydiverek] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Reserves are outfitted with free bags and extra wide bridles (and in some cases even drag-inducing bridle pockets) that are (hopefully) capable of deploying the reserve in the event of an entanglement with the main or with you.

That cannot be counted on, please see starting at time 3:50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAqiuruC09Y

Point taken. Now cue in to 5:20 where Bill says the bridle will deploy the bag if the jumper assists it in leaving (as demonstrated). The bridle attachment point on reserve bags is at the top, possibly giving the jumper access to it by reaching over either shoulder to give it a tug.

Certainly better than doing nothing at that point I suppose.

The more important question: is anyone working on a reserve bridle that will actually deploy the reserve under these circumstances?

Bill? John? Sandy?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 29, 2011, 2:28 PM
Post #16 of 31 (2723 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi chuck,

Quote:
The more important question: is anyone working on a reserve bridle that will actually deploy the reserve under these circumstances?

I can only offer my thoughts; and that would be that there is nothing going on at this time. But everyone has the secret stuff that they always work on. Shocked

IMO the 2" bridle ( nor the 3" bridle @ JumpShack ) will not really get your reserve out in time to save you.

Somewhere around here I have some video of the testing of the Reflex/Catapult and even that takes a fair amount of time to actually get the reserve out.

If you had a Catapult and you pulled at 2500 ft it might make it but IMO that would be a stretch.

Again, just my thoughts . . .

JerryBaumchen


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 30, 2011, 2:29 AM
Post #17 of 31 (2650 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is there a bridle as yet invented that WOULD do the job?

I believe that Racer uses a reserve bridle, which is one inch wider than the bridles used by other manufacturers. Anyone to confirm this?


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 30, 2011, 2:37 AM
Post #18 of 31 (2649 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My Voodoo has extra pockets on the bridle that create a lot more drag than the one in that video. Not sure if it would work any better, but it certainly wouldn't work any worse.

From Bill Booth, talking about the pockets as well:

"Let me clear up one myth right now. The free bag system WILL NOT pull your reserve bag out of its container in the event of a horse shoe malfunction. A horse shoed 16 foot long, 2 inch wide, free bag bridle generates only about 2 pounds of force on the bag at terminal velocity. Most reserve canopies weigh over 5 pounds, not counting force required to extract them from the reserve container, especially if the main container is still closed. What the long wide bridle will do, however, is stabilize the bag, (if you reach back and throw it out of the container) so that it won't tumble through its own lines as it deploys.
So, if you ever experience a horseshoe malfunction of your reserve, don't just lie there and wait to hit the ground, sit up until you feel the reserve bridle hit you in the back of the head, reach back and pull on it until the free bag is out of the container, and then let go. The drag of the bag itself, helped out by the bridle, will then carry it to line stretch. I put out a film about this about 15 years ago, but a lot of people seem to have forgotten."

and

"The pull generated by a 2" reserve pilot chute bridle in a horseshoe configuration is about 2 pounds. I published a video recording that fact about 20 years ago. Reserves weigh at least 5 pounds. Plus, all modern reserve containers add a "containment" force to keep the reserve bag in the container during pilot chute hesitations, to prevent out-of-sequence deployments (which, by the way, have killed several jumpers using older containers without this safety feature). So, it usually takes at least 10 pounds of force to remove a reserve bag from its container. Therefore, a horse-shoed reserve bridle does not generate nearly enough force to pull your reserve bag out of its container. This is a good thing, because it prevents out of sequence deployments due to pilot chute hesitations.

The basic problem with two reserve pilot chute systems like my Vortex (which I developed years before the Catapult, but did not market) or the Catapult itself, is that they cannot tell the difference between a pilot chute hesitation (very common) and a reserve horse shoe malfunction (very rare). So, the second pilot chute on these systems can easily pull the reserve free bag above a hesitating primary (spring loaded) pilot chute, allowing that pilot chute to get into the lines below the free bag, thus totaling your reserve. So, the Catapult system actually encourages out of sequence reserve deployments, which as I said above, is a very bad thing. I tried to solve this problem with the Vortex, but was unable to do so. The Catapult does not solve it either."

and

"The freebag system only "Works" if the bag is first "ejected" from the container by some force OTHER than the horse shoed bridle. On the Paraflite dummy drops, this force was supplied by the tumbling dummy. Once the bag is out of the container (at terminal) it will blown upward by its own drag. A horse shoed 2" bridle only supplies about 1 pound of drag. Most reserves weigh at least 5 pounds, and it takes at least 10-15 pounds to pull the bag out of most modern containers. This is a good thing because of the likelihood of reserve pilot chute hesitation. If your bag falls out of the container while your pilot chute is hesitating, and gets above that pilot chute, you could be in a lot of trouble."

and

"In my tests, a horse shoed freebag bridle pulls only about one pound at the freebag end. Pockets on the bridle don't pull much more, and certainly not enough to pull a freebag out of a modern container. This is good, because the last thing you want during a pilot chute hesitation (common on internal spring-loaded pilot chute systems) is for your bridle to pull your bag out of the container and above the hesitating pilot chute. Reserve totals are rarely fun."

and

"With your main container (and riser covers) closed, it can easily take over 15 lbs. of pull to remove your reserve bag from the container. It takes a pilot chute of about 13" finished diameter to do that. Pockets on the bridle won't generate nearly that much drag. But the most important thing to consider, is that the second pilot chute can't "tell" the difference between a reserve horse shoe (which is very rare) and a reserve pilot chute hesitation (which is very common). Ask yourself this simple question: "Do you really want your reserve bag pulled out of the container by the secondary pilot chute while your main pilot chute is hesitating right above?" Sounds like a recipe for an entanglement between the heavy, spring loaded primary pilot chute, and your reserve lines to me."

and

"Question: So why do we have 2" bridles in the first place?
Answer: Para-flite started it over 20 years ago. When they came out with the first square reserve, the Safety Flyer, they decided to "tinker" with a lot of other things too. The "free-bag" with its bungee "safety stows" and 2" wide "anti-horseshoe" bridle was the result. The Safety-Flyer was marketed with the Swift container system which had no pocketed corners. As a result, when you pulled the ripcord, the bag would simple fall out of the container. When they drop tested this combined system with a built-in "horseshoe" malfunction and a tumbling (unstable) dummy, the bag would simply be ejected from the container because of centifugal force (angular acceleration) and be pulled to line stretch by the force of the relative wind on the bag. The super long bridle allowed the lines to unstow, and the freebag allowed the canopy to open. The 2" width merely provided stabilization so that the bag did not tumble through the lines as they unstowed.

The anti-horseshoe system worked in those test conditions. However, as stated earlier in this thread, it will not work with a stable jumper using a modern piggyback system. The long, wide bridle has persisted out of inertia. i.e. No one wanted to go against an existing, "proven" system. Even though, I suspect, the wide bridle helps create and lengthen pilot chute hesitations, because of the drag it creates in the burble right above a stable jumpers back on initial pilot chute launch.

I have made one change recently, however. I had to shorted the bridle a bit to make the Skyhook work correctly. I kept the 2" width because of the stabilizing effect I noted above."


(This post was edited by skydiverek on Nov 30, 2011, 7:40 AM)


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Nov 30, 2011, 7:43 AM
Post #19 of 31 (2579 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, I will jump in here about the bridle and the pockets some have.

We use a 3 inch wide nylon bridle. Most use a 2 inch wide Polyester bridle. The Brits took a rig and tied the pilot chute to the foot of a jumper with an AAD rigged to release it. They drug it through the air and nothing happened until the AAD release the pilot chute.

Booth used a handeploy on a free bag in a main with no boxing to hold the bag in place. They held the hand deploy and the bridle drag wouldn't lift the bag out of the container. The safety jumper had to lift the bag out and place it into the air stream before it lifted off. The Bag has more drag sureface than the bridle.

If you do the math Drag=So*Cd*Q. You will not find enought area to generate enough drag even with the pockets to lift an 6 pound bag at terminal (Q=33PSF). All of this without any twists in the bridle which of course would reduct the available drag surface.

The Concept of the Free Bag Bridle is a joke. I have kept it because it allows a great pilot chute launch to "Reach out and grab some air".


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 30, 2011, 6:05 PM
Post #20 of 31 (2511 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnSherman] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Concept of the Free Bag Bridle is a joke. I have kept it because it allows a great pilot chute launch to "Reach out and grab some air".

Could you elaborate on this? You saying that the bridle width is a joke, or the whole thing?


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Nov 30, 2011, 7:02 PM
Post #21 of 31 (2494 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Ski, the whole thing is a joke. My bridle is 3 inches wide and it won't drag anywhere like you have been told the 2 inch version will. None of them will, there just isn't enough surface area.
There is no way, within the laws of physics, that a Free Bag bridle, of any width, can generate enough lift to cause the bag to extract from the contaioner. The idea of the anti-horseshoe bridle is a joke. Additionally, if you are looking for a line dump I suggest you visit the "Safety Stow".


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Dec 1, 2011, 11:31 AM
Post #22 of 31 (2429 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnSherman] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes Ski, the whole thing is a joke. My bridle is 3 inches wide and it won't drag anywhere like you have been told the 2 inch version will. None of them will, there just isn't enough surface area.
There is no way, within the laws of physics, that a Free Bag bridle, of any width, can generate enough lift to cause the bag to extract from the contaioner. The idea of the anti-horseshoe bridle is a joke. Additionally, if you are looking for a line dump I suggest you visit the "Safety Stow".

So John, taking that to the next logical step, are you or anyone else working on a bridle or other devise the WOULD deploy a reserve bag. Wider bridle with more pockets? Heavier material for greater drag? Something completely different?

Anything?


theonlyski  (D License)

Dec 1, 2011, 11:56 AM
Post #23 of 31 (2423 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

I would think that many different changes would open up many different problems. Complexity in rigging/packing/deployment could end up killing more people than a reserve horseshoe.

Matter of fact, when was the last instance (I haven't heard of any) of someone dying because of a horseshoe on their reserve?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Dec 1, 2011, 12:47 PM
Post #24 of 31 (2412 views)
Shortcut
Re: [chuckakers] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi chuck,

Quote:
anyone else working on a bridle or other devise the WOULD deploy a reserve bag

I doubt that anyone is. But then again, who knows what is going in someone's Skunk Works.

I used to have a disc with a lot of videos of the Catapult testing. It would pull the reserve out but it just took too much time ( IMO ) to be of much use due to the time it took to do so.

I cannot find the disc ( yea, it's somewhere in this house Crazy ) or I would spend a little time trying to do some timing on just how long it took to get things going.

I am not against the concept of the Catapult but it is not the be all for this problem. That is not to say that it is a bad idea because I think it has some merit; and in some cases it would save a jumper.

Maybe riggermick ( Mick Cottle ), the designer of the Catapult, could chime in with some elapsed time data from his testing.

JerryBaumchen


Deyan  (D 322)

Dec 1, 2011, 1:00 PM
Post #25 of 31 (2404 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] non drag/horseshoe malfunctions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Matter of fact, when was the last instance (I haven't heard of any) of someone dying because of a horseshoe on their reserve?

This one Crazy

http://www.dropzone.com/...ity%20ocana;#3606496


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)