Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing

 


p3h  (B License)

Nov 25, 2011, 9:30 AM
Post #1 of 16 (1696 views)
Shortcut
Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing Can't Post

Hi,

Let's say I'm on my final landing upwind, I'm close to the ground
and I notice someone landing downwind head on to me. Am I thinking
correctly that I should steer away with my rear riser and body (instead of a toggle) to prevent canopy from diving into the ground? And I should turn to the right as this gets the biggest probability that another person will turn to the right also, as
everywhere (as far as I know) they teach that emergency turns
like in cloud should in the right direction?


dragon2  (D 101989)

Nov 25, 2011, 10:23 AM
Post #2 of 16 (1664 views)
Shortcut
Re: [p3h] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

First off, try to prevent such a situation by getting everyone to land in the same direction and by keeping your head on a swivel.

If you're really surprised though, and have to turn at the last second, you will not have the time or the muscle memory to grab a rear riser.

But janking on a toggle would dive you into the ground as you surmised, so you don't want to do that.

What you should do in a situation like this, is flat turn, and yes, to the right - always turn right to prevent a collision UNLESS turning right would make it worse.

At 100 jumps, you should know about flat turns by now yes? They are a life-saving skill that will allow you to turn away from an obstacle with minimal altitude loss.

If you have no idea how to flat turn, there is a gap in your skydiving education and you should find an instructor to teach you ASAP.
You could need to do a flat turn at any one jump so you want to make sure this is an ingrained response (instead of a hard toggle turn), so practice practice practice, and preferably get feedback from a (canopy control) instructor.


hparrish  (D 25090)

Nov 26, 2011, 10:43 PM
Post #3 of 16 (1543 views)
Shortcut
Re: [p3h] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes I think it is safer to turn away to the right using rear risers over toggles, while landing.

BUT.........you should practice up high with Rears many times before attempting this while landing. because its easier to stall your canopy while landing on rear risers. you should know the stall point on rears at altitude before attempting while landing.

I disagree that Flat Turns, which use toggles, should be used while landing. thats basically a toggle turn with no altitude. A Flat Turn is better used with a couple hundred feet or more of altitude.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Nov 27, 2011, 5:53 AM
Post #4 of 16 (1527 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hparrish] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I disagree that Flat Turns, which use toggles, should be used while landing. thats basically a toggle turn with no altitude. A Flat Turn is better used with a couple hundred feet or more of altitude.

I strongly believe this is incorrect. Flat turns absolutely should be used. I would NOT recommend someone use rears.


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Nov 27, 2011, 6:01 AM)


Martini  (D 23756)

Nov 27, 2011, 2:05 PM
Post #5 of 16 (1455 views)
Shortcut
Re: [p3h] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Been there. Toggle flat turn to the right was a lifesaver. You're already on toggles, no time to switch to rears and if there was time and you missed it would be ugly. Also using toggles (brakes) slows the whole thing down, more time and less energy. Seriously a no-brainer.


hparrish  (D 25090)

Nov 30, 2011, 4:47 PM
Post #6 of 16 (1309 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Martini] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess it depends on the context of how you are landing.

I'm already on REARS.............as are allot who are swooping. So Switching to toggles to make a flat turn, doesnt make sense to me. Avoiding the collision with REARs makes sense to me under that situation.

However IF swooping without rears letting up on your left toggle to turn right, does make a bit more sense.


Martini  (D 23756)

Nov 30, 2011, 7:33 PM
Post #7 of 16 (1290 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hparrish] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Roger that with two caveats:

Near the end of your swoop you're probably transitioning to toggles anyway. Also the transition to toggles from rears is fast, easy and you can't miss as the toggles are already in hand. Number three Tongue rears don't slow you down and diminish your energy nearly as much as brakes.


Pulse  (D 16387)

Dec 1, 2011, 3:18 AM
Post #8 of 16 (1264 views)
Shortcut
Re: [p3h] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

A couple of the previous posts sound like they're doing all they can to maintain a sweet swoop. But here's the fact, forget about your swoop at this point - switch to life saving mode.

You have to feel out the threat. Is the guy a long way away? Do you have to just make a small correction? Maybe you don't have to change much of what you're doing. Simple harness input and a touch more riser to maintain altitude through the turn may be all that's needed.

Then again, you might have noticed the guy very late and have to make a hard correction. Forget about the rear risers at this point. Start your ground level turn and using toggles will give you more authority to tighten the radius of the turn.

Another thing to consider: Where were you in the stack? Are others coming in behind you? I'd say try to make as small of a correction as possible.

This is a valid issue to consider. But really, if you're unable to make this decision through experience. I wonder why you're swooping. Or doing it anywhere even near where other people are landing.


Martini  (D 23756)

Dec 1, 2011, 8:33 PM
Post #9 of 16 (1218 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Pulse] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't believe that the OP's post had anything to do with swooping.

If I read you right you believe that the reaction to a landing head-on needs to be instinctive. So do I.


hparrish  (D 25090)

Dec 6, 2011, 9:58 PM
Post #10 of 16 (1154 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ianmdrennan] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian,

There are few on here who's opinion I respect, but knowing your involvment in the discipline, i respect yours.

Please explain further, why you feel a flat toggle turn is better than rears to avoid a landing collision?

Do you feel toggles are still better than Rears if you are already on rears?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Dec 7, 2011, 5:01 AM
Post #11 of 16 (1131 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hparrish] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Harry

No problem, I'm happy to explain my position Smile

If you're on the deck and you're far away from the approaching canopy, sure you can stay on rears do a minor deviation and continue on your way. The risk in this is that the opposing pilot turns to avoid the impact as well but in the same direction as you.

In this scenario though if you transfer to toggles early, you can do a high speed flat/carving turn and lose all your energy quickly as well as change direction (I think Brian G calls this a hockey stop turn).

In the more likely scenario (where you're a few hundred feet high and on final) your priority is to preserve altitude and change direction. In this case toggles are the best option to accomplish both those tasks. First the pilot levels the canopy out, then makes a slow (or low pitch changing) turn.

Regardless in both cases (if you're swooping) the need for rears is gone. We're no longer trying to preserve speed and we're trying to slow everything down as much as we can.

Blues,
Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Dec 7, 2011, 5:10 AM)


hparrish  (D 25090)

Dec 7, 2011, 7:53 PM
Post #12 of 16 (1079 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ianmdrennan] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Makes Sense. Always something to learn in this sport.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

Dec 7, 2011, 10:24 PM
Post #13 of 16 (1072 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hparrish] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, something that was explained for everyone at canopy course with Brian Germain. To do a quick toggle turn with out losing altitude in case of an emergency you have to get used to turn with your harness while you are using your toggles.
Then again as a few people mentioned it already, practice this up high and if you have a digital altimeter you can double check on your turns to see how much altitude you are losing and it would help you to improve your technique once you are not losing any.
A straight harness/toggle turn would be a lot faster, effective and safer than a flat turn when you must avoid someone coming straight to you.


5.samadhi

Dec 8, 2011, 6:46 PM
Post #14 of 16 (1046 views)
Shortcut
Re: Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I remembered hearing once for some particular reason that a flat turn is better done by going into half-brakes and then LIFTING the opposing toggle that you want to turn away from. If you want to turn left, then go into half-brakes and lift your right hand.

Does it make that much of a better flat turn to do this versus going into half brakes then pulling the toggle you want to turn down a little more?


NWPoul  (D 178119)

Dec 8, 2011, 9:14 PM
Post #15 of 16 (1035 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I remembered hearing once for some particular reason that a flat turn is better done by going into half-brakes and then LIFTING the opposing toggle that you want to turn away from. If you want to turn left, then go into half-brakes and lift your right hand.
It's more "Braked turn" than true FlatTurn

The more H.speed you have - the more spare lift you have to perform direction changes without losing altitude

Steering away wrom smb using rears - seems not good idea at all (if only you not already in plainout stage using tem)
due to the less input range, more stall probability, possible losing of grip etc...
Turn using brakes provide changing of direction and deceleration (which also good for reduce the cons of collision)
and instant ability to flare and land


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Dec 9, 2011, 6:07 PM
Post #16 of 16 (982 views)
Shortcut
Re: [5.samadhi] Steering away when flying head onto smb while landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I remembered hearing once for some particular reason that a flat turn is better done by going into half-brakes and then LIFTING the opposing toggle that you want to turn away from. If you want to turn left, then go into half-brakes and lift your right hand.
That's what's generally taught to students so that they don't risk stalling one side of their wing by being deep in brakes and then trying a flat turn by pulling one toggle past stall point. At least that's how I understand it.



Forums : Skydiving Disciplines : Swooping and Canopy Control

 


Search for (options)