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Why jump at night?

 

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Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 21, 2011, 10:26 AM
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Why jump at night? Can't Post

The SIM asks but does not answer this question. For the life of me I canít understand why this is a license requirement. Other than demonstration jumps, the only night jumps Iíve ever witnessed have been to meet the D license requirement. Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring a night jump for a D license?


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Nov 21, 2011, 10:28 AM
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

So that your first night jump isn't on a demo.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Nov 21, 2011, 10:35 AM
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dumb question. Why jump during the day? A: Because it's fun.

_Am


JohnRich  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 10:47 AM
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The SIM asks but does not answer this question. For the life of me I canít understand why this is a license requirement. Other than demonstration jumps, the only night jumps Iíve ever witnessed have been to meet the D license requirement. Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring a night jump for a D license?

First of all, a PRO rating is NOT required for a demo.

Second, an "expert" should be someone who has experienced skydiving in many different forms, including night jumps, water landings, group jumping, accuracy, and so on. If you want to be called an expert, you have to fulfill the requirements. If you don't want to make a night jump, that's fine, but be happy with having only a C license.


jackwallace  (Student)

Nov 21, 2011, 11:10 AM
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

NNFB


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 11:24 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The SIM asks but does not answer this question. For the life of me I canít understand why this is a license requirement. Other than demonstration jumps, the only night jumps Iíve ever witnessed have been to meet the D license requirement. Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring a night jump for a D license?

First of all, a PRO rating is NOT required for a demo.

Second, an "expert" should be someone who has experienced skydiving in many different forms, including night jumps, water landings, group jumping, accuracy, and so on. If you want to be called an expert, you have to fulfill the requirements. If you don't want to make a night jump, that's fine, but be happy with having only a C license.

Then why not make, for example, HALO jumps a requirement of the D license? Or wingsuit proficiency? Where's the dividing line between sensible and arbitrary?


linestretch  (D 21060)

Nov 21, 2011, 11:50 AM
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Re: [JohnRich] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the biggest problem holding jumpers back from jumping at night is poor night vision. In reality, when would someone all of a sudden be stuck jumping at night? You mention water landings....yet it's not a requirement.

My suggestion is do away with the night jump (which I think are fun by the way) and make a down wind landing a requirement. That's something you'll end up having to do eventually.


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Nov 21, 2011, 12:36 PM
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Re: [linestretch] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think the biggest problem holding jumpers back from jumping at night is poor night vision. In reality, when would someone all of a sudden be stuck jumping at night? You mention water landings....yet it's not a requirement.

My suggestion is do away with the night jump (which I think are fun by the way) and make a down wind landing a requirement. That's something you'll end up having to do eventually.

You would then need to make sure no one takes off after Official sunset, so as not to potentially land in the dark, like we already "do" for Students!

Doing a night jump in a controlled environment gives you the experience for the times when you do push the envelope and find it darker than you thought it would be. To now not do them, and not teach our newer generation, is a failure on us the older Generation and us the Instructional members of Skydiving around the world.

Matt


JohnRich  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 12:59 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then why not make, for example, HALO jumps a requirement of the D license? Or wingsuit proficiency? Where's the dividing line between sensible and arbitrary?

Our normal jumps are "HALO". I presume you mean high-alititude.

The dividing line should be between things that any skydiver can experience at some time in the normal course of events, versus specialized things that would only happen if you chose to make it happen.

Sunset loads can become night jumps, water landings can happen from bad spots, and accuracy can become necessary if you're blown off-airport by winds. So to be an expert, you should know how to deal with those things. On the other hand, no one accidentally ends up in a wingsuit or at 20,000 feet - they had to plan for that to happen in advance, so there are different paths to take to become versed in those subjects.


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Nov 21, 2011, 3:20 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 21, 2011, 1:07 PM
Post #10 of 313 (2572 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring
>a night jump for a D license?

Because traditionally many DZ's "push the limits" of daylight. This results in jumpers jumping in near-darkness with no training for it; this can result in problems.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Nov 21, 2011, 1:12 PM
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The SIM asks but does not answer this question.

Because it's exciting and fun.

In reply to:
Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring a night jump for a D license?

1) At some point you're going to jump in less than ideal light conditions (load gets delayed, jumping near mountains where actual sunset is before legal sunset, etc.) and the experience may help.

2) To be a "Master Skydiver" (the title formerly associated with a D license) you ought to have done more than just the basics.

3) Dropping the requirement wouldn't be fair to all the existing D license holders who did their two jumps (We could say the same thing about live water jumps).


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Nov 21, 2011, 1:15 PM)


fastphil  (D 5801)

Nov 21, 2011, 1:19 PM
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because it's not day all the time...
Attachments: goodnite.JPG (101 KB)


jumpwally  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 1:24 PM
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Re: [linestretch] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that my friends,,makes fucking sense.....


fastphil  (D 5801)

Nov 21, 2011, 1:26 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the "D" licensee is "Expert" (not Master)...
Attachments: expert.jpg (83.0 KB)


ghost47  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 1:29 PM
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Re: [billvon] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Because traditionally many DZ's "push the limits" of daylight. This results in jumpers jumping in near-darkness with no training for it; this can result in problems.
I don't understand this line of reasoning. People with 26 jumps and an A license are allowed on those sunset loads. So it seems to me that either:

(a) non-D licensed people shouldn't be allowed on sunset loads;

(b) night jumps should be required for A licenses; or

(c) night jumps should not be required for D licenses.

Further, while water landings CAN happen due to bad spots or simply airplane emergencies, night jumps are easily avoided by not getting on the plane later than, say, an hour before sunset.


Bodhisattva420  (B 35178)

Nov 21, 2011, 1:39 PM
Post #16 of 313 (2505 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because jumping at night is @#$%ing AWESOME!


firemedic  (D 29776)

Nov 21, 2011, 2:10 PM
Post #17 of 313 (2466 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The SIM asks but does not answer this question. For the life of me I canít understand why this is a license requirement. Other than demonstration jumps, the only night jumps Iíve ever witnessed have been to meet the D license requirement. Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring a night jump for a D license?

First of all, a PRO rating is NOT required for a demo.

Second, an "expert" should be someone who has experienced skydiving in many different forms, including night jumps, water landings, group jumping, accuracy, and so on. If you want to be called an expert, you have to fulfill the requirements. If you don't want to make a night jump, that's fine, but be happy with having only a C license.

We had a discussion on this some time back. I think it was in the Training forum. I take the position that Night Jumps should only be required for those who, 1. Want to do them and 2. For those who wish to do night demos whether they are Pro Rated or not. Reason being that a D license is required for a competition and a tandem instructor rating. Night tandems are prohibited and competition does not take place at night. My feeling is why make someone prove they can survive 2 night landings uninjured when that is the only time they are going to do so. IMHO It adds no skill to doing tandems or competing.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 21, 2011, 2:13 PM
Post #18 of 313 (2461 views)
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Re: [ghost47] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

>People with 26 jumps and an A license are allowed on those sunset loads.

Depends. One of the first DZ's I was at kept the 'sunset' loads to tandems and the more experienced people at the DZ.

>Further, while water landings CAN happen due to bad spots or simply airplane
>emergencies, night jumps are easily avoided by not getting on the plane later than,
>say, an hour before sunset.

Yes, you can. And you can avoid needing to learn very accurate landings (and water landings) by always checking your spot and knowing the winds (and by refusing to jump when you can't do those things.)

People don't.


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 21, 2011, 2:16 PM
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Re: [firemedic] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

A D license is no longer required for competition. You can compete with a C license.


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 21, 2011, 2:21 PM
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Re: [ghost47] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
night jumps are easily avoided by not getting on the plane later than, say, an hour before sunset.

Clouds can unexpectedly form causing much darker conditions than normal


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Nov 21, 2011, 2:21 PM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:03 PM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a lower time jumper, so this is just my opinion based on the perspective of a 200 jump skydiver.

I recently did 2 night jumps and what I was thinking about in the preparation phase was that the activity required greater awareness of all aspects of the skydive. You had to understand the effects of the skydive without your traditional visual indicators, which requires a deeper understanding. It also requires you to be prepared to identify and handle any problems you may encounter, but without an easy visual reference.

What does a malfunction mean in the dark? How can exit separation become a danger if you have a mal and don't know if the airspace around you is clear or not? You have to think about these things more than you do during the day time, and for some jumpers, they may not be in the habit of thinking about them at all. Having conducted a night jump, it is at least an indicator that you are aware of these things, and making it a requirement for a rating that says "i know what i'm doing" makes sense.

By adding this to the skydive, you are forced out of your normal procedures and you can't fall back to your comfort zone to complete the dive successfully (and safely).

While you could argue that a HALO jump or a wingsuit jump introduces similar changes to procedure that could serve as a substitute demonstration of skill/understanding, you have a lot more overhead and gear needs.

All you need to make a night jump is a few hours of time after sunset to let the light conditions change.

tldr; it isn't about the night jump, it's about forcing jumpers out of their comfort zone and making them perform under more difficult conditions than they are accustomed to demonstrate "mastery" of the activity.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:10 PM
Post #22 of 313 (2398 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The SIM asks but does not answer this question. For the life of me I canít understand why this is a license requirement. Other than demonstration jumps, the only night jumps Iíve ever witnessed have been to meet the D license requirement. Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring a night jump for a D license?

First of all, a PRO rating is NOT required for a demo.

Second, an "expert" should be someone who has experienced skydiving in many different forms, including night jumps, water landings, group jumping, accuracy, and so on. If you want to be called an expert, you have to fulfill the requirements. If you don't want to make a night jump, that's fine, but be happy with having only a C license.

You say that like having a D license means you are an "expert".
Good joke, John!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:12 PM
Post #23 of 313 (2395 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The SIM asks but does not answer this question. For the life of me I canít understand why this is a license requirement. Other than demonstration jumps, the only night jumps Iíve ever witnessed have been to meet the D license requirement. Since a PRO rating is required for a demo, what is the purpose of requiring a night jump for a D license?

First of all, a PRO rating is NOT required for a demo.

Second, an "expert" should be someone who has experienced skydiving in many different forms, including night jumps, water landings, group jumping, accuracy, and so on. If you want to be called an expert, you have to fulfill the requirements. If you don't want to make a night jump, that's fine, but be happy with having only a C license.

Then why not make, for example, HALO jumps a requirement of the D license? Or wingsuit proficiency? Where's the dividing line between sensible and arbitrary?

USPA doesn't always operate in "sensible" mode. D-license requirement for night jumps is one of those arbitrary cases.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:14 PM
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Re: [3mpire] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
tldr; it isn't about the night jump, it's about forcing jumpers out of their comfort zone and making them perform under more difficult conditions than they are accustomed to demonstrate "mastery" of the activity.
I think that's a valid way of looking at it.
It might make sense, then, too, to require at least one jump where you take a picture of someone else in freefall, for the same reasons.

Doesn't have to be a GOOD picture -- you could use that $10 disposable camera you get at the drugstore (you can get them with wriststraps). But, again, it makes you think about what you're doing.

Wendy P.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 21, 2011, 3:15 PM
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Re: [matthewcline] Why jump at night? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I think the biggest problem holding jumpers back from jumping at night is poor night vision. In reality, when would someone all of a sudden be stuck jumping at night? You mention water landings....yet it's not a requirement.

My suggestion is do away with the night jump (which I think are fun by the way) and make a down wind landing a requirement. That's something you'll end up having to do eventually.

You would then need to make sure no one takes off after Official sunset, so as not to potentially land in the dark, like we already "do" for Students!

Doing a night jump in a controlled environment gives you the experience for the times when you do push the envelope and find it darker than you thought it would be. To now not do them, and not teach our newer generation, is a failure on us the older Generation and us the Instructional members of Skydiving around the world.

Matt

You're spouting USPA's reasoning.

Well, some of us are smarter than stepping out of a plane when it's dark unless we intentionally mean to do so.

And I sincerely hope you are not saying. "us old farts had to do it so you young farts need to do it that way."


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