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HP From an Old Fart

 

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Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 6:39 PM
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HP From an Old Fart Can't Post

>Do you think any canopy under 168-170 is a high performance canopy? If so why?

No.

Let's take discussions of the definition of HP canopies to G+R and leave this thread for discussions of the incident itself.

OK Bill Von here it is!

Any Canopy that, when it opens in line twists, spins up to a speed that makes cutaways problematic is by definition lethal.

Any canopy, that has to be regularly opened at 4500' to give time to deal with high speed malfunctions is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can kill by a mere 90 degree wind change is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that turns and dives so fast as to make any attempt to clear airspace impossible is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can be totally collapsed by turbulence is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can be docked on by a wingsuit is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can exceed the parameters of an AAD is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that can cause a cutaway from a brake fire is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that with the slightest lapse of currency or attention can cause injury is by definition lethal.

Any canopy that (even on a test jump) that can cause GLOC (Google it) is by definition lethal.

I'm sure you can think of more and I'm certainly sure the guys with Mad Skillz will flame away.

Flame as much as you like because it's only luck keeping you out of the incident forum!


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 6:46 PM
Post #2 of 463 (6927 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like you really hate the Para-Cloud. Guess you're still on a Paracommander huh?


bodypilot90  (D 24249)

Nov 18, 2011, 6:51 PM
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember someone saying anything under a 170 was a hp canopy because of shorter lines making the canopy more responsive. If i remember correctly.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 6:56 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like you really hate the Para-Cloud. Guess you're still on a Paracommander huh?

No, my first square was a StratoStar. My last was a Pegasus.

Now a couple of questions for you.

Have you ever been on a Dak load where 45 people were all trying to land in an area 200 yards by 200 yards. If there were canopy collisions they sorted themselves out by ground level. What changed? The speed and sensitivity of the canopies.

Ever been on a Twin Otter load into a football stadium with no canopy collisions or injuries. What changed? The speed and sensitivity of the canopies.

If sanctimonious PA removed by slotperfect like you can't see the problem what hope is there for skydiving!


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Nov 20, 2011, 4:11 AM)


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Nov 18, 2011, 6:57 PM
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Going by those parameters ALL canopies are by definition lethal.
I have 3 canopies, a 190 Sabre, a 189 Safire and a 170 Vengeance - I think I could get any of my canopies to do at least a couple of those things on your list (some more than others obviously).
Edit to add I am not trying to be sarcastic, just pointing this out...


(This post was edited by crotalus01 on Nov 18, 2011, 6:58 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:00 PM
Post #6 of 463 (6907 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If sanctimonious Pricks like you can't see the problem what hope is there for skydiving!

Well, I can see that you're ready and willing to have a constructive conversation with a canopy pilot, swooping competitor and canopy coach like me...


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:02 PM
Post #7 of 463 (6903 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sounds like you really hate the Para-Cloud. Guess you're still on a Paracommander huh?

It was either a 'Para-Plane' or a 'Strato-Cloud'...kids today! CrazyTongueSly

And hey, if ya hooked a P.C. too low it would really rattle your nuts as well! Wink


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:02 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Going by those parameters ALL canopies are by definition lethal.
I have 3 canopies, a 190 Sabre, a 189 Safire and a 170 Vengeance - I think I could get any of my canopies to do at least a couple of those things on your list (some more than others obviously).
Edit to add I am not trying to be sarcastic, just pointing this out...

When I started jumping it was C9's in B4 harness's

Yes it was a dick waving competition (I'm brave, I jump out of aeroplanes) but C9's and B4's did not kill with the regularity that is seen now.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:04 PM
Post #9 of 463 (6901 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like you really hate the Para-Cloud. Guess you're still on a Paracommander huh?

It was either a 'Para-Plane' or a 'Strato-Cloud'...kids today! CrazyTongueSly

And hey, if ya hooked a P.C. too low it would really rattle your nuts as well! Wink

Doc Stewart is my father in the sport. He took me under his wing when I was a young jumper and taught me how to be a skydiver, not just how to skydive.

Anyways, he blew his ankle apart in the late '60s by hooking in a PC for a hit and chug.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:06 PM
Post #10 of 463 (6902 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If sanctimonious Pricks like you can't see the problem what hope is there for skydiving!

Well, I can see that you're ready and willing to have a constructive conversation with a canopy pilot, swooping competitor and canopy coach like me...

So since you have all this experience can you tell me why so many people are dying under a fully functional canopy?
Your input would be much appreciated.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:09 PM
Post #11 of 463 (6897 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
If sanctimonious Pricks like you can't see the problem what hope is there for skydiving!

Well, I can see that you're ready and willing to have a constructive conversation with a canopy pilot, swooping competitor and canopy coach like me...

So since you have all this experience can you tell me why so many people are dying under a fully functional canopy?
Your input would be much appreciated.

I can tell ya why...high speed impact with the planet.

I blame the operator more than the wing. Wink

Parachutes don't kill people...they just give them a choice on how & when to kill themselves.


virgin-burner

Nov 18, 2011, 7:16 PM
Post #12 of 463 (6887 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like you really hate the Para-Cloud. Guess you're still on a Paracommander huh?

It was either a 'Para-Plane' or a 'Strato-Cloud'...kids today! CrazyTongueSly

And hey, if ya hooked a P.C. too low it would really rattle your nuts as well! Wink

Doc Stewart is my father in the sport. He took me under his wing when I was a young jumper and taught me how to be a skydiver, not just how to skydive.

Anyways, he blew his ankle apart in the late '60s by hooking in a PC for a hit and chug.

did he win? if yes, good man! Tongue

LaughLaughLaugh


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:17 PM
Post #13 of 463 (6888 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
If quoted PA removed by slotperfect like you can't see the problem what hope is there for skydiving!

Well, I can see that you're ready and willing to have a constructive conversation with a canopy pilot, swooping competitor and canopy coach like me...

So since you have all this experience can you tell me why so many people are dying under a fully functional canopy?
Your input would be much appreciated.

Sure. It comes down to a couple of factors: 1. the jumper is over their head, 2. the jumper is trying something too advanced with the canopy or 3. the jumper reacts to conditions incorrectly.

That all comes down to education and creating a culture in skydiving in which jumpers feel greater peer pressure to make better choices and/or get more training.

Now I'm going to repost something that I posted in the previous thread, since it still applies:

Quote:
This is an interesting point. Even if this turns out not to be a contributing factor for this fatality, it has been a contributing factor for far too many fatalities.

If you are unwilling or unable to safely execute a crosswind or downwind landing then one or more of the following factors are in play: 1. The conditions are beyond your comfortable safety zone, 2. The conditions are beyond your skill set and training, or 3. Your canopy choice is inappropriate for you skill level.

If any of those conditions are present, then you should not jump. By jumping you are not only putting yourself at risk, you are putting the skydivers around you at risk of injury or death as well.

If it is item #2 or #3 then you as a jumper need to take responsibility for this, choose a more appropriate canopy, and/or seek and obtain a higher level of training. Reading a book does not impart the skills you need to be a safe canopy pilot, it only imparts knowledge. A skill set is born only from dedicated training.


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Nov 20, 2011, 4:13 AM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:18 PM
Post #14 of 463 (6882 views)
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Sounds like you really hate the Para-Cloud. Guess you're still on a Paracommander huh?

It was either a 'Para-Plane' or a 'Strato-Cloud'...kids today! CrazyTongueSly

And hey, if ya hooked a P.C. too low it would really rattle your nuts as well! Wink

Doc Stewart is my father in the sport. He took me under his wing when I was a young jumper and taught me how to be a skydiver, not just how to skydive.

Anyways, he blew his ankle apart in the late '60s by hooking in a PC for a hit and chug.

did he win? if yes, good man! Tongue

LaughLaughLaugh

He said that he was pissed because his fellow jumpers wouldn't let him have his "god damned beer" while sitting in the ambulance waiting to go to the ER.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:21 PM
Post #15 of 463 (6873 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Aggie Dave,
Since most jumpers are, by definition average, wouldn't it make sense to limit their access to those HP Canopies?


virgin-burner

Nov 18, 2011, 7:25 PM
Post #16 of 463 (6862 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

i can imagine.. Cool

about your previous post, as in the other thread, i been digging around the fatality-database on here, it appears your chances of dying are the greatest as a student or as a what can be called a very experienced (1000+ jumps) skydiver.

raising pull-altitudes probably would BY FAR have a greater effect on fatalities than any restrictions on canopies would have, since it appears there's a relatively large amount of entanglements or reserves not being deployed in time to inflate..


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:28 PM
Post #17 of 463 (6856 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi Aggie Dave,
Since most jumpers are, by definition average, wouldn't it make sense to limit their access to those HP Canopies?

Yes and no.

Yes in regards that if everyone was forced to jump a Navigator 300 then less people would die when they hook it in.

No in regards that the problem is not the gear, the problem is the overall culture of skydiving. To use some corporate cliche, what we need is a paradigm shift in skydiving. The lack of serious canopy control training through out most student programs, coupled with the desire to downsize to "be a cool skydiver" has created our current problem.

Making it cool to be a highly experienced canopy pilot who flies an appropriate canopy would save more people in the long run.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:29 PM
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Re: [virgin-burner] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i can imagine.. Cool

about your previous post, as in the other thread, i been digging around the fatality-database on here, it appears your chances of dying are the greatest as a student or as a what can be called a very experienced (1000+ jumps) skydiver.

raising pull-altitudes probably would BY FAR have a greater effect on fatalities than any restrictions on canopies would have, since it appears there's a relatively large amount of entanglements or reserves not being deployed in time to inflate..

I can understand the student fatality rate. They don't know what they don't know. That's what AAD's are for.


Why are 1000+ jumpers dying though. Do you want to see H&P's from 12,000'


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:30 PM
Post #19 of 463 (6853 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you want to see H&P's from 12,000'

YES!

That saddle time is how I learned and practiced the important foundation of skills that taught me how to be a high performance canopy pilot. It is beyond important!


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:39 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

The Airforce doesn't take people with a Private Pilot's licence and put them in an F16. But that appears to be what jumpers are doing.

Mandate training yourself or someone else will do that for you!

And they will do it the easy way. They will just ban the canopies and solve it overnight


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:43 PM
Post #21 of 463 (6839 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The Airforce doesn't take people with a Private Pilot's licence and put them in an F16. But that appears to be what jumpers are doing.

Mandate training yourself or someone else will do that for you!

And they will do it the easy way. They will just ban the canopies and solve it overnight

"They" didn't ban the Bonanza...

"They" would probably just create a type rating.

If you have enough money you can buy a high performance jet as a private pilot. You can even buy it with no license what-so-ever. It just costs a lot more than a $3500 Velocity.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:50 PM
Post #22 of 463 (6828 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The Airforce doesn't take people with a Private Pilot's licence and put them in an F16. But that appears to be what jumpers are doing.

Mandate training yourself or someone else will do that for you!

And they will do it the easy way. They will just ban the canopies and solve it overnight

"They" didn't ban the Bonanza...

Ahh Aggie, now you're obfuscating.

No one can go from a Cessna 150 to " The Fork Tailed Doctor Killer" without, at least , a type rating. Might not stop them killing themselves but at least they have had some MANDATED training. Where is the MANDATED training for jumpers?

"They" would probably just create a type rating.

If you have enough money you can buy a high performance jet as a private pilot. You can even buy it with no license what-so-ever. It just costs a lot more than a $3500 Velocity.


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 7:54 PM
Post #23 of 463 (6825 views)
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ahh Aggie, now you're obfuscating.

No one can go from a Cessna 150 to " The Fork Tailed Doctor Killer" without, at least , a type rating. Might not stop them killing themselves but at least they have had some MANDATED training. Where is the MANDATED training for jumpers?

Nope, I'm not obfuscating, the truth just stings sometimes.

Some of us have called for mandated training. The problem, at least in the US, is that the BOD would rather hand out $10,000 to their friends who want to start a demo team then approach comprehensive and positive change to the sport.

So we're left with people like me, passionate, able and willing to teach how to fly a canopy safely and well. We're like the kid walking on a beach throwing starfish back into the sea. We can't save everyone, but I can save THIS one!


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 18, 2011, 8:04 PM
Post #24 of 463 (6807 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Ahh Aggie, now you're obfuscating.

No one can go from a Cessna 150 to " The Fork Tailed Doctor Killer" without, at least , a type rating. Might not stop them killing themselves but at least they have had some MANDATED training. Where is the MANDATED training for jumpers?

Nope, I'm not obfuscating, the truth just stings sometimes.

Some of us have called for mandated training. The problem, at least in the US, is that the BOD would rather hand out $10,000 to their friends who want to start a demo team then approach comprehensive and positive change to the sport.

So we're left with people like me, passionate, able and willing to teach how to fly a canopy safely and well. We're like the kid walking on a beach throwing starfish back into the sea. We can't save everyone, but I can save THIS one!

That's the problem Dave. And it's not just in the States, it's all over the world. Nothing will be done until some hotshot stuffs up a demo and takes out 5+ of the general public.
THEN you'll see a response. Jyro and the other manufacturers have a lot to answer for (And I first met him when he was a student on rounds)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 18, 2011, 8:06 PM
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Re: [Marisan] HP From an Old Fart [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's the problem Dave. And it's not just in the States, it's all over the world. Nothing will be done until some hotshot stuffs up a demo and takes out 5+ of the general public.
THEN you'll see a response. Jyro and the other manufacturers have a lot to answer for (And I first met him when he was a student on rounds)

And we're back to my point. The problem isn't the gear, it is the person flying the gear.


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