Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
2 out roof landing

 

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d100965  (D 100965)

Nov 12, 2011, 3:30 AM
Post #101 of 147 (2193 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

et viola...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7SdwTXJgng

Also.........In your face mpohl!

I have a library of videos on my laptop for use as learning aids. Therefore as soon as this was posted I downloaded it for that reason.

Yeah, we may be "dorkzoners.com" but I'd rather be that than a "no profile fuckwit sympathiser" Tongue

I would like to add that currently I'm still living in the 80's and would like to apologise for my complete disregard for peoples feelings and my lack of political correctness.
Carry on.....


(This post was edited by d100965 on Nov 12, 2011, 3:41 AM)


Indigogirl

Nov 12, 2011, 4:15 PM
Post #102 of 147 (2078 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Saying sorry on here won't keep you alive... making excuses for all the really, really dumb s..t you did... including posting the video.... won't save your ass another day.

You should give yourself some time off from the Sport and really think about what you did....

You are the sort of skydiver that gives the sport a bad name....

Buying an Audible just gives you something else to blame when you forget to change the batteries and it doesn't sound... and you end up in the same situation again!

You are most likely one of the idiots that has a coach rating at 100 jumps and thinks that you are untouchable...

You most likely jump in unsuitable wind conditions too... when all the "experienced" guys are sat on the ground... watching you, waiting for carnage... I bet you put on a great show then too....

Thanks for posting... reading has been great... funny how people want to blame the camera... not my choice for you with so few jumps... And to be as to the point as possible... this Sport wouldn't be my choice for you either... You are not smart enough to survive... just lucky enough!

But it wasn't the fault of the camera, it was the fault of you not having the brains to deal with the situation you put yourself in..

So do us all a big one and stay home a few weeks, until it sinks in...

Bet you won't though... because you have too much to prove and you are too cool!


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 12, 2011, 4:22 PM
Post #103 of 147 (2074 views)
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Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice, I downloaded in a higher res but the net affect is the same. Damn pommie bastard. Tongue

I spoke with the other jumper, our S&TA, the instructor I mentioned earlier and a couple of other people.

This was not a 4 way, the other canopies were from the group before, add that to the list of things that went wrong on this jump. The other jumper has fewer than 100 jumps. She ended up low because, when they were meant to be breaking off, she was pulled down a little and got unstable. She was open by ~2500 or there abouts. She landed safely on the DZ.

Many people have talked to Denis and tried to make it clear just how close he came to dying in many different ways but he doesn't seem to want to acknowledge it. He has stopped jumping with the camera, not because anyone forced him to though, I hope he's made that choice for himself.

It's a difficult situation, no one barring the DZO has the authority to tell Denis to do anything. I'm sure that there are examples of this kind of personality on many of the dropzones around the world. The unfortunate thing is that we can tell them what was dangerous about this jump until we're blue in the face but I'm sure in their mind they're fine and we're the boy crying wolf.

I was at the DZ today and so was Denis but many people who have spoken with him said that there was no point so I didn't bother. Denis, you're reading this, have a think about what that means. Please.

Indigogirlp - you're right about the canopy bit, Denis was out jumping today when most everyone else was on the ground.


(This post was edited by danielcroft on Nov 12, 2011, 4:26 PM)


obelixtim  (D 84)

Nov 13, 2011, 1:26 AM
Post #104 of 147 (1999 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Tell him to read the Sangi story....from when he was bulletproof, and the advice he was given, till when he found out about "consequences".....


T-Girl  (D 10129)

Nov 13, 2011, 2:19 AM
Post #105 of 147 (1991 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Denis, you are an ass.. a complete ass.... You obviously don't learn from other peoples mistakes any more than you have done from your own.

Jumping in Saturdays wind conditions just goes to show what an arrogant twat you really are.

You don't just make the sport look bad, you make the Ranch look bad, you make your instructors look bad and you make yourself look like a compete cock!

And as for what you learnt.. which was nothing.... what the fuck... pull higher? Are you for real... it took opening your main below your hard deck and having your Vigil fire to teach you that... Really?

What about " deploy your reserve when below your hard deck?"

If you get into the same situation again, you will most likely do the same stupid thing... because you didn't learn a freaking thing... and the sad thing is, you most likely will do... Watch this space!

The ONLY sensible thing you did was to not release the breaks.... and that was "only just"

You even took your helmet off when you were still on the roof... way to go....

And for those of you that think that the camera had nothing to do with this... and the whole 200 jump recommendation would have made such a big difference... the camera had a lot to do with this... regardless of type... do you really think another 50 jumps would have made this kid any smarter... dumb is dumb, no matter how many jumps you have...

Like one of the earlier posts said... "Don't be a fuckwit" should be a basic requirement for jumping camera... but I am not here to bring cameras and usage into debate... there are far more serious issues at large here...

Mostly, Denis, you are a disgrace to our Sport... You quite clearly have no respect for anyone or anything in the sport, not even yourself,

I bet you haven't even given the owner of the house a second thought have you.... ?


airdvr  (D 10977)

Nov 13, 2011, 2:51 AM
Post #106 of 147 (1989 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow! Just watched the vid. In all fairness raise your hand if you've never been deep in the beeps. Hell, he had another 4 maybe 5 seconds. Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 13, 2011, 4:51 AM
Post #107 of 147 (1964 views)
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Re: [T-Girl] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I miss that "Ranch Love". Smile Thanks for that!


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 13, 2011, 6:32 AM
Post #108 of 147 (1939 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I miss that "Ranch Love". Smile Thanks for that!

As I said... No rules, but some "positive" peer pressure Sly


jrmrangers  (B 36060)

Nov 13, 2011, 9:35 AM
Post #109 of 147 (1894 views)
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Re: [Remster] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah im positive thats some pressure!!!Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 13, 2011, 11:59 AM
Post #110 of 147 (1851 views)
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Re: [T-Girl] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
you make the Ranch look bad

Yeah he did. I proved it upthread when I asked who spoke to him, who allowed him to jump a camera in the first place, and who was going to let him continue to jump a camera.

Of course, the Ranch made itself look bad by letting these things, and from what I gather, allowing him to jump in marginal wind conditions, but there are two sides to every coin. Even if the management is 'overly permissive', the jumper is free to set their own limits, and not run every factor right to the edge of what they can 'get away with'.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 13, 2011, 12:16 PM
Post #111 of 147 (1840 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Seeing as you (probably wisely) stopped posting on your own thread, I'll bring you back into it for a bit. I'm sure you've been reading, however, and you can see that people are not looking favorably at you, and here's why -

For starters, and I don't think this has been pointed out, but have you considered what would have happned if you had a high-speed malfunction?

As things turned out, you had a two-out and you did have an open main before you reserve deployed and I think this is giving you a false sense of security that you didn't screw up 'that bad'. From your point of view, you deployed your main, and the AAD fucked it up by firing for 'no reason', but the fact of the matter is that the AAD had a very good reason to fire, that's because it's way more altitude aware than you are and it knew about the impending imapct with the ground.

Back to the high speed mal, if you had a PC in tow, hard pull, or bag lock, think through the scenario. If you were low enough to scare your AAD, you would have had ZERO chance to pull your own handle before the AAD got to it. By the time you realized you were having a mal, you would have smoked through AAD firing altitude.

Let's say your AAD didn't work, or maybe your cutter didn't have a blade it. In that case, you would have ONE chance to pull your reserve, and have it open before impact. Let's say between 2 and 3 seconds to identlfy a high speed mal, decide to pull silver, then locate and pull (how many reserve side practice pulls have you done in freefall???). Much beyond those 3 seconds, you stand a very good chance of going in with a partially inflated reserve, or given the recent history of reserve deployment hesitations, no reserve at all. Either case is going to suck.

What it comes down to is that you left your life in the hands of a main pack job and an AAD. If the pack job didn't work out, it was up to the AAD or you most likely would have gone in.

Why people are shiting on you is because this seems to escape you and haven't ackowledged how serious the situation was. Your posts seem to lean toward blaming everyone and evertything but yourself, and minimizing how bad this really was.

I want to conclude that maybe you read the thread and took some of it to heart, but then we hear that not long after the 'roof' incident, you're jumping in wind conditions that casued highly experienced jumpers to go home. WTF dude?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 13, 2011, 3:52 PM
Post #112 of 147 (1791 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
allowing him to jump

Dave, seriously and without malice, have you ever been to The Ranch?


dorbie

Nov 15, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #113 of 147 (1563 views)
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Re: [d100965] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ahh, it's turned into another debate on the use of cameras by newbies.....

Can we get back to flaming the guy in the video for being such a dick.

The camera is most certainly a factor in this whole event, but I think that the biggest problem was more to do with the guy himself.

There are strong indicators he lost altitude awareness due to fixating on camera flying.

He lost altitude awareness and pulled low and snivelled through 750. Better skydivers than you and me have gone in with a no-pull or been saved by AADs.

One overlooked factor here is the hot chick, clearly this is a serious safety concern and babes should be banned from the sport.

At the very least you should be required to have your C license before skydiving with anyone over a 6.


virgin-burner

Nov 15, 2011, 4:01 PM
Post #114 of 147 (1546 views)
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Re: [dorbie] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At the very least you should be required to have your C license before skydiving with anyone over a 6.

that would make shah VERY unhappy! Unimpressed


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 15, 2011, 5:22 PM
Post #115 of 147 (1517 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Tell him to read the Sangi story....from when he was bulletproof, and the advice he was given, till when he found out about "consequences".....
I don't think that'd make any difference in this case. It didn't make any difference to Sangi did it?

I think the saddest thing about this incident is that there was a lot of calculation that went into where Denis pulled and the only mistake was that he sniveled through AAD firing height a little too fast. He's just playing everyone by saying "I learned to pull higher". He kinda did but not the way we're all assuming. It's pretty obvious that we all learn about hard decks as students and minimum pull altitudes "pull higher" when you are sailing through 2k glancing at your altimeter isn't really a case of "I lost altitude awareness".

I'd love to say you guys got through to him but he's just another Sangi waiting to go splat.


frontloop33

Nov 16, 2011, 9:31 AM
Post #116 of 147 (1412 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

For starters, and I don't think this has been pointed out, but have you considered what would have happned if you had a high-speed malfunction?

IMO far worse: A low speed mal like a line over.
Let's say your are in the saddle just a little higher than the AAD opening altitude (at about 1000 ft).

So you are under one canopy that starts to spin (line over).

What to do now?
Cut away? to low
Try to land the main? Spinning to fast
Firering your reserve into a spinning main? Only option but not a very good one..


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 16, 2011, 1:04 PM
Post #117 of 147 (1357 views)
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Re: [frontloop33] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you are in the saddle just a little higher than the AAD opening altitude (at about 1000 ft).

So you are under one canopy that starts to spin (line over).

What to do now?
Cut away?

Yes, probably.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 16, 2011, 1:26 PM
Post #118 of 147 (1343 views)
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Re: [frontloop33] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

>vLet's say your are in the saddle just a little higher than the AAD opening
>altitude (at about 1000 ft). So you are under one canopy that starts to
>spin (line over).

If you cannot survive the landing under the mal and there's a good chance your reserve will open in time - cut away. From a low speed mal most reserves will open in 200-300 feet.

If you cannot survive the landing and your reserve will NOT open in time - open the reserve into the malfunctioning main. If you are going to land under a ball of crap, it best be the biggest ball of crap you can manage.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 16, 2011, 7:06 PM
Post #119 of 147 (1296 views)
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Re: [frontloop33] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Firering your reserve into a spinning main?

Keep in mind the reserve PC and reserve will follow the relative wind. If you are spinng under any sort of canopy, the reserve will open to the rear of the canopy, as the relative wind is going past the canopy, not toward it.

In a PC in tow, horseshoe, baglock, or streamer, yes, you are firing the reserve into the mess if you do not or can not cutaway. Again, follow the relatuive wind, and if it's going toward the canopy, so will the reserve.

Of course, once the reserve gets open, having it next to a malfunctioning main isn't the best idea, but at least it will be out there.


paul.Mcallister  (A License)

Nov 20, 2011, 10:36 AM
Post #120 of 147 (1133 views)
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Re: [Squeak] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been following this thread from day 1 and as a nooby to this sport I have found the video and comments to be very instructive.

I do have one question. At what altitude do you decide that you are not going to deploy your main and you are going to pull the reserve in order to prevent AAD induced two out? I have searched the SIM and I haven't come across the answer.

Thanks, Paul


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 20, 2011, 11:02 AM
Post #121 of 147 (1125 views)
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Re: [paul.Mcallister] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

>I do have one question. At what altitude do you decide that you are not
>going to deploy your main and you are going to pull the reserve in order
>to prevent AAD induced two out?

I strongly recommend you do NOT do that. When you are low, get a parachute above your head as fast as you can. Most people can get their mains out faster than their reserves - and being at 1000 feet in freefall is a bad place to try to find a handle you have never even touched in freefall before.

In general a two-out is better than a no-out.

If you do want to go for the reserve in situations like this, then train yourself to do this. Practice on the ground and do practice touches in the air, just like you did with your main. That may help you locate the handle if you ever do decide to go for your reserve instead of your main.

Keep in mind, though, that if you ever do find yourself low suddenly, you will, 99.999% of the time, go for your main instead of your reserve. It's too strong a habit for most skydivers to break.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 20, 2011, 11:03 AM
Post #122 of 147 (1126 views)
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Re: [paul.Mcallister] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have been following this thread from day 1 and as a nooby to this sport I have found the video and comments to be very instructive.

I do have one question. At what altitude do you decide that you are not going to deploy your main and you are going to pull the reserve in order to prevent AAD induced two out? I have searched the SIM and I haven't come across the answer.

Thanks, Paul

In theory, if you are below your hard-deck you should immediately deploy your reserve. In practice many or most people deploy their main due to muscle memory.

It's probably a good thing to discuss this with an instructor. They have probably got some advice.


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Nov 22, 2011, 2:29 PM
Post #123 of 147 (945 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you should sue Vigil for giving you a unit with a cutter blade. If you would have been one of the lucky one's with out a blade in their Vigil, you would have never had a two out, just a sick low pull video. And as soon as you start swooping post videos here http://www.facebook.com/groups/sofpidarf/


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2011, 9:54 PM
Post #124 of 147 (842 views)
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Re: [Decodiver] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't get 1 audible get 2 and finally only fuckheads pull low.........altitude is your friend....you'll realize why the day you cut away a mal................

Tell me you are NOT saying an audible will prevent this situation. Tell me you are NOT telling him to depend on an audible...please.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 22, 2011, 9:57 PM
Post #125 of 147 (847 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?

100 jumps, flying camera, don't know EPs, alti-aware issues.

Read the SIM...you do have a SIM, right?
Oh, wait....100 jumps - camera...probably not.

2-out was covered in your FJC, right?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Nov 22, 2011, 9:59 PM)


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