Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
2 out roof landing

 

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dzhuravkov

Nov 9, 2011, 6:49 PM
Post #51 of 147 (1517 views)
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Re: [chutem] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:04 PM
Post #52 of 147 (1506 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?

DZH, start a new thread on this question, so it does not get lost in the thread here..
It's a good question.


chutem  (A 45827)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:24 PM
Post #53 of 147 (1489 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
James, yes, she did make it back. She opened at 3k. and here's a question for you all... Ive heard arguments for both unstowing brakes in this situation (on the main) and for flying stowed on both canopies.. thoughts?

I'm glad to hear she made it back.

I would probably have left the brakes stowed as they seemed to be "playing nice" with each other. I'm not saying this is the correct thing to do, just probably what I would have done.

James


diablopilot  (D License)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:51 PM
Post #54 of 147 (1467 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

At 115 jumps camera or not you should still be breaking off and tracking on EVERY jump, not relying on vertical separation.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Nov 9, 2011, 7:51 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:59 PM
Post #55 of 147 (1458 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
At 115 jumps camera or not you should still be breaking off and tracking on EVERY jump, not relying on vertical separation

Can't you read? The camera and filming the opening had nothing to do with it, he was enjoying a bit of backflying after a jump and took it too low. The fact that he was wearing a camera and pointing it in the direction of a deploying jumper was a simple coincidence.

Haven't you ever rolled over to backfly at the end of a jump 'just because'? After all, he had a Vigil, what could go wrong?


jrjny  (A License)

Nov 9, 2011, 9:30 PM
Post #56 of 147 (1417 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

That's an amazing video. Def past peak foliage up there now. I'm sure you're going to be very aware now.

Jeff


chopaka  (D 29376)

Nov 9, 2011, 10:38 PM
Post #57 of 147 (1395 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi


LDiCosimo  (B License)

Nov 10, 2011, 1:13 AM
Post #58 of 147 (1355 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was simply enjoying learning to backfly, but yes, at unreasonably low altitude..

backflying aint easy right away. took me a bit o time in the tunnel to really get mediocre at it. You looked like you were having a real hard time trying to get back to your belly, I saw lots of flailing then spinning.

To me this is not an excuse, and i'm not sure by your responses that you rally understand how serious this was. "sipmly learning to backfly" is really an attempt to minimize it, whether for your sake or ours.


manseman  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 4:51 AM
Post #59 of 147 (1307 views)
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Re: [dzhuravkov] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..
Safety before fun is removing the camera. No ego? Everybody tells you that you're not ready to wear it, yet you insist it's no problem. Heh.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 5:15 AM
Post #60 of 147 (1290 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is nothing you're going to do that is going to impress a girl to the degree that her pants will drop.

Used to be ya could just jump a Mirage... What's the damn sport coming to?


sacex250

Nov 10, 2011, 7:40 PM
Post #61 of 147 (1109 views)
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Re: [chopaka] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi
Does everybody have to miss the point here?

If he wasn't wearing a camera then this video wouldn't exist! The fact that he was wearing a camera had little to do with what got him into the situation. There was a pile of things that he did wrong on this jump that are generally considered reckless with or without a camera, and it is those things that were the primary factors in the peril of the situation. The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 7:48 PM
Post #62 of 147 (1104 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi
Does everybody have to miss the point here?

If he wasn't wearing a camera then this video wouldn't exist! The fact that he was wearing a camera had little to do with what got him into the situation. There was a pile of things that he did wrong on this jump that are generally considered reckless with or without a camera, and it is those things that were the primary factors in the peril of the situation. The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.

I think not.

The claim that the backflying at the end was done without regard to having the camera is basically not accepted. It has been asserted that it did not contribute to the desire to get that look back up at the girl, but there is very good history behind the rejection of that. Human nature is just that way. Many other things were done wrong, but the camera is a major part of it, not an innocent bystander.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Nov 10, 2011, 7:50 PM)


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Nov 10, 2011, 8:34 PM
Post #63 of 147 (1072 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I think it'd be dumber to decide to backfly after break off than to try to film someone's deployment but really we're talking shades of stupid at that point.

We all make mistakes, the problem with this video was that it was apparently that many more than one mistake was made. Denis has had a talking to by instructors and senior jumpers at the ranch and I'm sure will learn from this.


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 8:37 PM
Post #64 of 147 (1067 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.

In reply to:

And YOU know because of the vast expierence you've had dealing with new camera jumpers? LaughLaughLaugh


Amazon  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 9:08 PM
Post #65 of 147 (1055 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
i will keep jumping with the camera, but I just do need to remember to not grow an ego and remember safety before fun..

Seriously, lose the camera. You cannot keep jumping with the camera AND be safe. Period. Take your time and listen to all of this advice.

Rudi
Does everybody have to miss the point here?

If he wasn't wearing a camera then this video wouldn't exist! The fact that he was wearing a camera had little to do with what got him into the situation. There was a pile of things that he did wrong on this jump that are generally considered reckless with or without a camera, and it is those things that were the primary factors in the peril of the situation. The camera was an innocent bystander, and by no means will simply removing the camera fix what went wrong on this jump.

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure


(This post was edited by Amazon on Nov 10, 2011, 9:12 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 9:35 PM
Post #66 of 147 (1041 views)
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Re: [danielcroft] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Personally I think it'd be dumber to decide to backfly after break off than to try to film someone's deployment

...and both were done in this case.

In reply to:
Denis has had a talking to by instructors and senior jumpers at the ranch and I'm sure will learn from this.

Some of his statements show that he doesn't realize what contributed and how. That doesn't mean those at the ranch did not do enough to set him straight, but perhaps later on he's wanting to minimize the role of the camera.


sacex250

Nov 10, 2011, 10:30 PM
Post #67 of 147 (1028 views)
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Re: [Amazon] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!


sundevil777  (D License)

Nov 10, 2011, 11:18 PM
Post #68 of 147 (1018 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

Number of low pull/no pulls largely caused by the presence of a camera: Lots!


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Nov 10, 2011, 11:18 PM)


Krip  (Student)

Nov 10, 2011, 11:44 PM
Post #69 of 147 (1012 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

What are you baseing your numbers on? I hope it's not on the incident reports on DZ.com.

Any idea how many video people or the peeps geeking the camera got sucked down.

Just wondering

K-RIP


holie  (A License)

Nov 11, 2011, 12:27 AM
Post #70 of 147 (1003 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

DUUUUUUDE... right on... the video exists... SAAWWEEEET.

Perhaps all jumpers .. even newbies should wear them.. it would make the job of figureing out WTF happened so much easier on all those fatalities where there is huge speculation to what actually happened.

DUUUUDE.. its all about the coolio video for Youtube.



Crazy


Cool video.. killing jumpers for 39+ years that I know of.Unsure
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

I call BS!
Fill your profile - show your experience that we can discuss at eye level.

Mad


sacex250

Nov 11, 2011, 1:16 AM
Post #71 of 147 (994 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

Number of low pull/no pulls largely caused by the presence of a camera: Lots!
So then, why is it that students are allowed to hire camera jumpers from their very first jump? Wouldn't the presence of a camera, by your logic, cause a student to be more susceptible to a low pull because he's showing off for the camera?

I very much doubt that's the case. It's probably the opposite way around, a student would be so consumed by trying to get the jump right that the student would forget all about that ContourHD stuck to his head.

Is there a potential threshold at which the value of a small format camera might outweigh the risks, in your eyes? What about a ContourGPS? It's got to be difficult to argue against having a graphical flight path displayed on GoogleMaps inset on a video of the jump.

Flight Recorder

The problem is that jumpers can't seem to plan a jump and jump the plan. Is it really that hard to do a proper skydive?

Or, is this a territorial dispute because of professional video jumpers who are going to lose money because they've been largely replaced by technology? Is the C-License requirement just a moritoreum to keep camera jumpers employed by restricting jumpers from grabbing their own videos?

It just seems to me that there's more to this than just the safety issue.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 11, 2011, 1:28 AM
Post #72 of 147 (986 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So then, why is it that students are allowed to hire camera jumpers from their very first jump? Wouldn't the presence of a camera, by your logic, cause a student to be more susceptible to a low pull because he's showing off for the camera?

The camera jumper is experienced. The argument about camera during AFF is different. There are instructors present to ensure the student does what they are supposed to. For what it is worth, do a search or speak to AFF instructors about this. Having a camera flyer does involve precautions and risks. The instructors need to know the camera flyer is not going to interfere with their job.

On solo status as a student I don't know what the dive plan would be, but one assumes the camera flyer would set the plan, in the same way a coach would. So at a predetermined altitude even if the student has lost focus, seeing the cameraman tracking off and deploying should wake them up, in a safe manner.

Over-all you are ignoring alot of variables. Just for one example, with a camera on jump run or two minute call you are going to be switching it on etc, that has to detract from your own gear check and spotting activities.

Quote:
The problem is that jumpers can't seem to plan a jump and jump the plan. Is it really that hard to do a proper skydive?

Remember that a single mistake could kill you. The KISS approach helps. Minimise variables and you decrease the risks. People seem to forget that having cameras increases the risks, even for a guy with 5000 jumps. It is just that the guy with 5000 jumps is experienced enough to deal with a lot more than the 100 jump wonder.


sacex250

Nov 11, 2011, 1:41 AM
Post #73 of 147 (979 views)
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Re: [Krip] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Number of jumpers killed by low pulls in the last 39 years: A LOT!

Number of jumpers killed by GoPros and Contours combined: ZERO!

Number of AAD activations due to low/no pulls: Enough to prove their worth!

Number of AAD activations due to presence of GoPro or Contour without low/no pull: ZERO!

What are you baseing your numbers on? I hope it's not on the incident reports on DZ.com.

Any idea how many video people or the peeps geeking the camera got sucked down.

Just wondering

K-RIP

Then why isn't there an outcry to ban all cameras from skydiving? No, the debate is solely focused on small format cameras on jumpers without C-Licenses, which is just a USPA recommendation not a rule! If there were people with 100 jumps with massive commercial set-ups on their heads then I'd see the point, as it seems most people do. That's not the problem. The problem is that the experienced jumpers have taken a recommendation and turned it into a rule to harass and harangue newer jumpers over to prevent them from using small format cameras, even though there's no definitive evidence that it's unsafe.

Should there be some law to forbid the use small format cameras on motorcycles, mountain bikes, snowskis, zip lines, and wind tunnels? Why is it that it's the small format camera that suddenly makes skydiving dangerous?


Skyper

Nov 11, 2011, 1:54 AM
Post #74 of 147 (970 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
, even though there's no definitive evidence that it's unsafe.

Should there be some law to forbid the use small format cameras on motorcycles, mountain bikes, snowskis, zip lines, and wind tunnels? Why is it that it's the small format camera that suddenly makes skydiving dangerous?

camera or anything else except standard gear mounted on your body imposes a serious snag hazard. Don't forget you're in the skydiving game. In this game even that misarable piece of s. mounted on your helmet may kill you.

Not to mention very low flying abilities of the newbies which also increses the snag hazard due to possible unstable positions.

A distraction factor adds even more risk on the top of it.

a bit off topic but...

In some countries you may not jump any kind of camera untill you reach 200 formation jumps. imho in the USA the skydiving safety rules are a bit loosey to provide more opportunities for skydiving business but it does not mean you should not take care responsability for your own safety and safety of your friends.


nigel99  (D 1)

Nov 11, 2011, 1:56 AM
Post #75 of 147 (965 views)
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Re: [sacex250] 2 out roof landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Then why isn't there an outcry to ban all cameras from skydiving? No, the debate is solely focused on small format cameras on jumpers without C-Licenses, which is just a USPA recommendation not a rule! If there were people with 100 jumps with massive commercial set-ups on their heads then I'd see the point, as it seems most people do. That's not the problem. The problem is that the experienced jumpers have taken a recommendation and turned it into a rule to harass and harangue newer jumpers over to prevent them from using small format cameras, even though there's no definitive evidence that it's unsafe.

You've got a distorted view of the situation. Yes a small format camera is less of a snag hazard than a larger setup, but as people have pointed out that is not the only risk.

If you are really open minded about it, read up on all the camera incidents over the years. Look at how they have contributed to incidents. It is all about risk management.

By the way I know very few jumpers with over 100 jumps who don't jump with a small format camera. I can't say that I have seen or heard of any problems amongst my friends. But when looking at the bigger picture, it is extra risk at a vulnerable stage of your progression.

I wish the community would put as much effort into the wingloading recommendation as they do the camera recommendation.


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