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Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs

 

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tsalnukt

Nov 9, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs Can't Post

The thread about skyhooks and RSL's in the other are sparked a debate at my home DZ. We were discussing whether or not to equip our new student javelin's with skyhooks. I am for it and one of our instructor said that if we were to get skyhooks then he is going to have to change the way he teaches malfunctions/emergency situatiuons. I couldn't really think of any reason to change any part of the FJC because the student rigs have skyhooks.

So my question is: Do you alter any part of the FJC because the rigs you are using have skyhooks or not???

ALL input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Nov 9, 2011, 12:08 PM
Post #2 of 27 (2626 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

We teach the same scripts for both kinds of rigs. What does your colleague propose to teach differently and why?


Deisel  (D 31661)

Nov 9, 2011, 7:48 PM
Post #3 of 27 (2509 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

EPs would be no different for either system. That would just cause unnecessary confusion.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Nov 9, 2011, 11:43 PM
Post #4 of 27 (2469 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see where any difference in the lesson would be necessary.
On the other hand I am absolutely astounded that you would have a discussion as to whether or not to get the skyhooks installed. Why on earth would you not. The number of students, especially first jump students, who have gone in from low cutaways is tragic. I have heard the arguments against skyhook, but no-one who understands cost-benefit in its most basic form would disagree with them for students.


tsalnukt

Nov 10, 2011, 3:50 AM
Post #5 of 27 (2446 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks everyone. I agree there should be no need to change anything. Keep it simple, especially in the FJC.

I guess I'm also looking for arguments against putting them in student rigs. I had one DZO tell me that "I don't see areason to spend an extra 300 bucks when Cypress and RSL have worked great for all these years."

I don't agree. IMHO it's just an RSL that has evolved. Why not give the students "a little extra" in the way of safety.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Nov 10, 2011, 5:37 AM
Post #6 of 27 (2413 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate to put it this way but if you have a student that does cutaway too low for a regular RSL to properly work and it ends up in court it might be a much harder case to argue that you did not provide all of the availble safety options all in an effort to save $300.


TheRanchPROshop  (D 21394)

Nov 10, 2011, 5:42 AM
Post #7 of 27 (2411 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone needs to talk to that instructor that thinks you need to change something in the FJC. This is the problem with the Skyhook RSL. People think it's different and its NOT. It's an RSL and should be treated the same. Remember, the Skyhook is not guaranteed to work. I have seen a couple that have acted as regular RSL's and not Skyhooks.

This I think is the problem with companies that have Skyhooks and how they market them. They make them sound magical, which is crap. It should be simply said that they are an over engineered RSL, that if it works properly, it could have you open 100' higher than a standard RSL. That's it, period.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 10, 2011, 9:36 AM
Post #8 of 27 (2342 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

What????

The better FJC instructors focus on "must knows," mention a few "should knows," but avoid overloading students with "could knows."

Any type of RSL is in the "could know" category and is best avoided until their third or fourth jump.
I avoid mentioning safety gadgets like RSLs, AADs and radios when teaching a first jump course (IAD or static-line).

I only mention radios near the end of the course ... AFTER they have listened to the entire lecture about canopy control and talked through the landing pattern several times.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Nov 10, 2011, 4:45 PM
Post #9 of 27 (2236 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

i agree with riggerrob regarding radios, however i do teach students about AAD and i get them to switch them on and off in the FJC. i also explain about the RSL and what it does. however i state that they are only back up devices and that they should follow the proper procedure for all thought during the course.
i am all for any extra safety device that can help someone and not just for students. me personally i like the skyhook and i know there are big debates on here about them.
and i can not see how a FJC should be thought differntly because of a skyhook.
my 2cents
rodger


(This post was edited by irishrigger on Nov 10, 2011, 4:47 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 11, 2011, 5:29 PM
Post #10 of 27 (2140 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I know, there is nothing about a Skyhook that would have me alter my FJC. I DO tell about the RSL and the AAD.


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 12, 2011, 9:23 PM
Post #11 of 27 (2055 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As far as I know, there is nothing about a Skyhook that would have me alter my FJC. I DO tell about the RSL and the AAD.

Depending on how much content is in the FJC you teach, with a skyhook, in the very unlikely chance a student is being drug on the ground, and they cut away, the RSL will cause the reserve to land in the bag on the ground. The skyhook will take it out of the bag and to full line stretch.

So it is possible you might want to say, "if you are needing to cutaway your canopy on the ground, and you can, disconnect the RSL first..."

I know this is the only consideration I have when I am jumping a skyhook rig.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 13, 2011, 12:04 AM
Post #12 of 27 (2041 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
one of our instructor said that if we were to get skyhooks then he is going to have to change the way he teaches malfunctions/emergency situatiuons.

In what way would he change it? You haven't specified, and that might help focus the discussion.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Nov 13, 2011, 7:52 AM
Post #13 of 27 (2017 views)
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Re: [tdog] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
As far as I know, there is nothing about a Skyhook that would have me alter my FJC. I DO tell about the RSL and the AAD.

Depending on how much content is in the FJC you teach, with a skyhook, in the very unlikely chance a student is being drug on the ground, and they cut away, the RSL will cause the reserve to land in the bag on the ground. The skyhook will take it out of the bag and to full line stretch.

So it is possible you might want to say, "if you are needing to cutaway your canopy on the ground, and you can, disconnect the RSL first..."

I know this is the only consideration I have when I am jumping a skyhook rig.

While I don't disagree with your logic, have you ever seen a student cutaway on the ground due to high winds? I haven't.


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 13, 2011, 8:15 AM
Post #14 of 27 (2012 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
While I don't disagree with your logic, have you ever seen a student cutaway on the ground due to high winds? I haven't.

For sure once - it was a female student who PLFed near the edge of the landing area in 12-14MPH winds and was being drug on the ground and could not get the canopy under control... maybe twice... I remember an AFF 7 where the winds went from 5 to 30 and he landed going backwards over a mile away from the landing area in a small pocket of a landing area... I think he cut away...


But I do teach they should cut away if they are being drug across the ground. On days where we know the winds are higher, as they were a few weeks back, all day we had 10-12 winds, I quiz the students as we are waiting in the landing area what to do after landing in higher winds. It is something we talk about... If they had skyhooks on the rigs, I think I would consider adding a disconnect RSL (if you can) before cutting away in that conversation.


tsalnukt

Nov 14, 2011, 5:41 AM
Post #15 of 27 (1914 views)
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Re: [tdog] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

Skyhook or not, if they were being drug on the ground and need to cutaway they should be disconnecting their RSL anyway so I don't think that it changes anything. I don't generally teach them this until they've had a couple of jumps and their minds are a little less scrambled.

Anyone have an argument against the Skyhook for students??


mark  (D 6108)

Nov 14, 2011, 6:14 AM
Post #16 of 27 (1905 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[O]ne of our instructors said that if we were to get Skyhooks then he is going to have to change the way he teaches malfunctions/emergency situations.

This question was asked before, but not answered: What exactly did that other instructor propose to change in the way he teaches?

Mark


tdog  (D 28800)

Nov 14, 2011, 7:03 AM
Post #17 of 27 (1897 views)
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Re: [tsalnukt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skyhook or not, if they were being drug on the ground and need to cutaway they should be disconnecting their RSL anyway so I don't think that it changes anything.

Actually.... I once asked Bill Booth for info on cutaways on the ground due to high winds.

His comments confirmed what I assumed:

If someone with a traditional RSL cuts away on the ground - the reserve PC and reserve freebag will plop out on the ground. The safety stows on the freebag will hold the canopy in...

The worst case scenario is that the reserve gets damaged... The likelihood the wind catches the reserve PC and opens the reserve is very low, unless it is hurricane force winds... Yes, it will cost a packjob of the reserve.

IF A STUDENT IS BEING DRUG - I honestly have debated, would I want the level 1 AFF student to be drug farther while they fumble the RSL - or just cutaway and deal with the reserve sitting on the ground in a bag? I have no clear answer, but I think the possible damage to the gear/human being drug across the ground could be much worse than the cost of a packjob...

SKYHOOK CHANGES THIS:
With a skyhook, the reserve will get to line stretch and the freebag and reserve PC will leave with the main canopy. The main canopy will keep pulling as long as the lines are loaded, then collapse to the ground once the lines are no longer loaded (the reason we run towards a canopy instead of pulling against it, on high wind days)... The skyhook will keep load on the canopy until it is fully released/fully complete on the cutaway.

So now you have a reserve out of the bag at line stretch in a folded wad on the ground, or possibly in the sky, ready to catch air...

Will the reserve inflate? Will the reserve slider come down? Will the reserve start to pull you across the ground? I think this is part luck of the draw, part how fast the winds are, etc... It would be ineresting to test this... Would it attempt to inflate much?

So all that being said... Honestly in the FJC I keep the "disconnect the RSL" conversation to a minimum because the info is much less important that about 100 other things I think matter more for the very first jump, knowing no student can remember everything.

Somewhere around the 3rd jump we start discussing the nitty gritty and details of the RSL... If the student had a skyhook equipped rig, I might consider increasing the RSL conversation priority... I don't fully know at this point...


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Nov 14, 2011, 7:54 AM
Post #18 of 27 (1888 views)
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Re: [tdog] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

Another source confirming that an RSL should not be an issue

Top 5 RSL myths
http://www.dropzone.com/...ent/Detailed/18.html


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Nov 14, 2011, 9:05 AM
Post #19 of 27 (1858 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I hate to put it this way but if you have a student that does cutaway too low for a regular RSL to properly work...
Regular RSLs can and do work or just as fast as the Skyhook does, on some rigs. The Skyhook ia a bandaid for an inadiquet Reserve system. Compare the videos!
Not only that it has had more failures than appropriate for such a short field life. It takes 10 to 20 years to prove out a reserve system in the field.
Its a Bad Idea-- It is effectively a two sided single side RSL as it has no cross connector to maintain the integrity of the drag if only one side releases.


Ron

Nov 14, 2011, 10:49 AM
Post #20 of 27 (1840 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not only that it has had more failures than appropriate for such a short field life. It takes 10 to 20 years to prove out a reserve system in the field.
Its a Bad Idea-- It is effectively a two sided single side RSL as it has no cross connector to maintain the integrity of the drag if only one side releases.

Don't you have to release a racer RSL in the event of a double out before cutting away the main? And failure to do that will result in your reserve being Strangled?


(This post was edited by Ron on Nov 14, 2011, 2:46 PM)


tsalnukt

Nov 14, 2011, 11:52 AM
Post #21 of 27 (1826 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

I only know of one "failure" and that was part of a whole bunch of things that could have been prevented which started with losing altitude awareness.

The way I see it a "failure" would mean that the Skyhook prevented the reserve system from operating correctly under "more or less" normal circumstances.

AFAIK It is a means to a faster reserve inflation. If for some reason the hook doesn't hook your reserve will still deploy as if it were a normal RSL.

A band-aid for an inadequate reserve system?? I don't want to get into that discussion but I don't see it covering up any inadequasies. I see it as improving an existing piece of equipment.


hookitt  (D License)

Nov 15, 2011, 4:25 PM
Post #22 of 27 (1738 views)
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Re: [Ron] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Don't you have to release a racer RSL in the event of a double out before cutting away the main? And failure to do that will result in your reserve being Strangled?

Yep. It's a bad Idea.

If the main opens behind the reserve and must be cutaway from some reason, failing to add an additional step of fumbling for one of the snap shackles, releasing it then cutting away will (not might) result in the reserve being choked off.


Liemberg  (Student)

Nov 16, 2011, 3:45 AM
Post #23 of 27 (1701 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
failing to add an additional step of fumbling for one of the snap shackles, releasing it then cutting away will (not might) result in the reserve being choked off.

And HAS in the past, resulting in at least one documented fatality...


spootch  (C License)

Nov 16, 2011, 10:45 PM
Post #24 of 27 (1630 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I hate to put it this way but if you have a student that does cutaway too low for a regular RSL to properly work...
Regular RSLs can and do work or just as fast as the Skyhook does, on some rigs. The Skyhook ia a bandaid for an inadiquet Reserve system. Compare the videos.


You might find that a hard sell to the base community.
Also a benifit of a functioning skyhook is avoiding a pc hesitation due to burbble.
Funny how the hand deploy was developed to counter all the problems with a spring, and yet we still use it as our last line of defenceShocked


skydiverek  (C 952)

Nov 17, 2011, 7:32 AM
Post #25 of 27 (1594 views)
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Re: [spootch] Changing the FJC for skyhook equipped rigs [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Funny how the hand deploy was developed to counter all the problems with a spring, and yet we still use it as our last line of defenceShocked

Please read this:
http://www.dropzone.com/..._latest_reply;so=ASC

and this:
http://www.dropzone.com/..._latest_reply;so=ASC

Smile


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