Nov 2, 2011, 12:50 PM
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Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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In another thread someone posted: "I'd say I wear them (seatbelts) more than 90% of the time now, I'm trying for 100, but sometimes they're jammed under the seat etc."
I really appreciate that honest statement, but we need to do better, and perhaps discussing it can help us do that.
Sometimes it is a real PAIN IN THE ASS to get that seatbelt on, but we must. Other people may be sitting on them, they may have become jammed or covered when a bench seat is moved, they may not be long enough for a large jumper in a big rig. (Personal experience here!)
Just lately I was in a cabin style aircraft sitting in the furthest position aft on the straddle bench, and the person further aft had to sit on the floor. He could not get the seatbelt fastened and he showed every indication that he was simply not planning to wear it.
I told him that we were going to try harder, and told him to sit close, after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached. I got it done just before the pilot throttled up for takeoff. I also removed it for him when it was time.
This is the kind of thing that we all need to do once in a while to help our friends. (This of course would help many of our friends if there was a crash.) We also need to insist that ALL of our friends on the load wear their seatbelts.
It is even OK to have someone tell the pilot to wait until the seatbelt issue is resolved before taking off. I know people are reluctant to do this, but it is the right thing to do.
If anyone notices that a particular seatbelt configuration nearly always causes a problem, then by all means let the aircraft owner know. Maybe they can change it or get a longer belt.
Edited to add: If you find that seatbelts are hard to find and hard to put on, there are a couple of things that can help.
1. Before you sit down, find your seatbelt and place it somewhere easy to grab after you sit down. What really works well is to tell the person behind/next to you to hold it while you sit down and then to hand it to you.
2. Extend this same courtesy to the person sitting "in your lap" or next to you by finding and holding their seatbelt for them while they sit down.
I'm surprised that this technique has not become a custom/habit in skydiving. It makes loading the aircraft faster and easier.
(This post was edited by peek on Nov 2, 2011, 3:32 PM)
Nov 2, 2011, 3:08 PM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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It would also be the right thing to do for USPA to forbid its board members from committing blatant FAR violations by jumping at drop zones where seat belts aren't even used.
Given that USPA has removed people from the organization for blatant and repeated FAR violations and given that failing to wear a seat belt is a blatant FAR violation, it would seem to me that a USPA board member who repeatedly commits that violation should face similar action.
Honestly Mr. Peek, how can we realistically expect our members to follow the rules when some of our own board members refuse to.
The hypocrisy of some on the board (not you, Gary) is utterly mind-boggling.
Nov 2, 2011, 3:18 PM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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I usually jump out of a crowded Caravan w/o bench seats. When packed in like sardines, it's sometimes a real PITA to get the belt on. I was getting into a habit of not putting one on. Then, I read this: http://www.amazon.com/...ersity/dp/1616084464
I now make sure I'm properly secured every time...
Nov 2, 2011, 3:37 PM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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if there is a seatbelt available, I always put it on. Last summer we had an An28 at a DZ not too far, with seatbelts. I was the only one to use them and I got the "whuffo do you put your belt on ??" look
Exactly why I wear my seat belt and choose to frequent dz's where everybody else does too. Shit hits the fan the after take off, you'll be happy you had it on.
Exactly why I wear my seat belt and choose to frequent dz's where everybody else does too. Shit hits the fan the after take off, you'll be happy you had it on.
Agreed. Some people overlook the importance of making sure EVERYONE has a belt on. In the Perris crash, most of the fatalities were cause by people being crushed by those sitting aft of their position - and the fall was from only a couple dozen feet!
A belt won't save you if others in the plane aren't buckled up too.
Exactly why I wear my seat belt and choose to frequent dz's where everybody else does too. Shit hits the fan the after take off, you'll be happy you had it on.
Agreed. Some people overlook the importance of making sure EVERYONE has a belt on. In the Perris crash, most of the fatalities were cause by people being crushed by those sitting aft of their position - and the fall was from only a couple dozen feet!
A belt won't save you if others in the plane aren't buckled up too.
Nov 2, 2011, 8:50 PM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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I agree with Mr. Peck.
The last time I flew without a seat-belt, I needed two rounds of physio-therapy ... and five months before I could make another solo jump ... eight months before I could do tandems again ... and a year before I could walk without pain!
Nov 2, 2011, 10:17 PM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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Quote:
after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached.
i agree with you that seatbelts are very important. BUT i am going to have to disagree with the above quote.
If i am literally strapped into a plane, i want to be able to unstrap myself in case of any emergency. If the shit hits the fan, i do not want to be dependent on someone else unhooking me.
Nov 3, 2011, 4:43 AM
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Re: [thrillstalker] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached.
i agree with you that seatbelts are very important. BUT... If i am literally strapped into a plane, i want to be able to unstrap myself in case of any emergency. If the shit hits the fan, i do not want to be dependent on someone else unhooking me.
Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.
Nov 3, 2011, 5:08 AM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.
Quote:
USPA to forbid its board members from committing blatant FAR violations by jumping at drop zones where seat belts aren't even used.
Quote:
What about this Gary? When can we expect to see some action on this? Not the first time this has happened with sitting BOD members supporting well known "outlaw" dzo's.
Sends a nice message to those members who blindly support those cats.
Nov 3, 2011, 1:36 PM
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Re: [stratostar] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.
Quote:
USPA to forbid its board members from committing blatant FAR violations by jumping at drop zones where seat belts aren't even used.
Quote:
What about this Gary? When can we expect to see some action on this? Not the first time this has happened with sitting BOD members supporting well known "outlaw" dzo's.
Sends a nice message to those members who blindly support those cats.
Nov 3, 2011, 6:53 PM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached.
i agree with you that seatbelts are very important. BUT... If i am literally strapped into a plane, i want to be able to unstrap myself in case of any emergency. If the shit hits the fan, i do not want to be dependent on someone else unhooking me.
Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.
Others are glad we're having this discussion too, Mr. Peek. Care to participate in the entire discussion?
Nov 3, 2011, 8:13 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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Ok in fairness to Mr. Peek, I'm 110% sure that he has addressed this issue first hand before, we (Gary & I) had spoke a number of times about a lot of issues, this being one of them.
Now you may think he is sitting on his ass doing nothing because he wishes to not engage you via a public pissing contest online. The truth of the matter is he is only but one BOD member, he is in the midwest and not on the left coast, he can only do so much as one voice. if this issue is of that much of hot button for all of us, then all of us need to speak up and voice this to ALL the BOD! And not sit back and expect Gary Peek to field the balls you keep hitting in the park aimed at him.
The root of the problem of Craig Stapleton jumping @ Lodi has to do with the message his actions send not only to USPA members he is to represent, but the message it sends to the FAA & NTSB who just released their 'report'. The USPA message to the FAA & NTSB has been "self policing" and a massive attempt to clean up the GM dz's..... Lodi is not a GM dz and has a reputation of cutting corners and busting FAR's like seat belts and MX.
What would happen if the wing of the otter fell off on take off as the AC was 30 ft in the air and no one was wearing seat belts, even the dead body of one Mr. Craig Stapleton, USPA RD, they find on top of the pile.... now we have another Perris 92 but only in Lodi and compounded by the bad MX cases.
What would/will the FAA do then to the industry? Mandatory part 135 for all jumpships?
I think USPA is risking a hell of a lot of egg on their face should anything like the above happen out there and Mr. Craig Stapleton is on the plane dead or broken from no seat belt, on the field watching and has been known to be a regular there for 20 some years..... kind of hard to play the stupid card if you been around that long to not notice little things like the seat belt use... the shitty MX is a whole another cookie.
Mr. Craig Stapleton has a fiduciary duty to the ALL membership of his region, it's his duty to look into the bullshit, the only way to know what is in the FAA's case is to file a FOIA request, Mr. Stapleton should have filed a FOIA request for the public record as part of his fiduciary duty to the USPA members like him self who jump there. After all Mr. Stapleton if there is noting to hide or lies being told on Lodi or the FAA is out to get Bill, then step up and look into it via FOIA. If it's all true & proven facts he should no longer support that operation as a sitting BOD member and maybe even seek action to remove Bill and other parties involved as a members of USPA, or step down as a regional director and keep on going there.
After all USPA has been talking a lot of shit about this NTSB report and how we gotta change things.... seems like a lot of fluffy bullshit to me to try to cater to the FAA while the good old boys send out the message, do as we say not as we do..... reminds me a lot of that dipshit regional director in Warren county Ohio.
Nov 3, 2011, 9:51 PM
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Re: [stratostar] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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Mr. Craig Stapleton has a fiduciary duty to the ALL membership of his region, it's his duty to look into the bullshit, the only way to know what is in the FAA's case is to file a FOIA request
If so many locals scream that Bill has been wronged and everything against him is a misunderstanding, FAA is out to get him, etc, etc..... can't anybody file a FOIA request, post the given info, and just put this all to rest on exactly what is happening?
Nov 3, 2011, 11:13 PM
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Re: [LyraM45] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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Not taking sides at all here, but the FAA isn't going to fine someone $1,000,000 because they are "out to get him," there wouldn't be fines, let alone fines this big, if there wasn't at the very least improper documentation of the maintenance.
Even if the planes were maintained correctly, like with all other things pertaining to the government, and life in general, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen.
Nov 4, 2011, 9:54 AM
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Re: [Elite_Marksman] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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Not taking sides at all here, but the FAA isn't going to fine someone $1,000,000 because they are "out to get him," there wouldn't be fines, let alone fines this big, if there wasn't at the very least improper documentation of the maintenance.
Even if the planes were maintained correctly, like with all other things pertaining to the government, and life in general, if it isn't documented, it didn't happen.
You and I are definitely on the same page here, but I was just saying in general there are locals there who post on these boards (or locals that I've talked to in person) who keep saying this is all some sort of misunderstanding, nothing has been violated and everybody just doesn't get it, etc, etc.... so now that I hear of this FOIA thing, which I'm not that familiar with, I figured it would be the ticket to end all the debate officially. But, I've been reminded that a FOIA request will do nothing if the case is in litigation still, which it could be for a long while, so it's useless right now anyway.
Either way, back to the topic on hand, the seat belt thing I've seen with my own 2 eyes and it's something I'm not comfortable with. I don't need a FOIA request or anything to help me out with deciding what is going on with that.
Nov 4, 2011, 10:26 AM
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Re: [LyraM45] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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But, I've been reminded that a FOIA request will do nothing if the case is in litigation still,
That is not true, I've had to FOIA records to see the FAA's side of something & I was providing info to the FAA in that case, once the letters of violation are sent to the party the action is towards, you can file a FOIA request.
Nov 4, 2011, 4:48 PM
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Re: [peek] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached.
i agree with you that seatbelts are very important. BUT... If i am literally strapped into a plane, i want to be able to unstrap myself in case of any emergency. If the shit hits the fan, i do not want to be dependent on someone else unhooking me.
Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.
Anybody got suggestions for alternatives here?
1. Somebody belts you in. 2. You leave it off. 3. ????
Nov 4, 2011, 7:58 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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after which I put the seatbelt through his harness in a place that he could have not reached.
i agree with you that seatbelts are very important. BUT... If i am literally strapped into a plane, i want to be able to unstrap myself in case of any emergency. If the shit hits the fan, i do not want to be dependent on someone else unhooking me.
Good point! I'm glad we are having this discussion.
Anybody got suggestions for alternatives here?
1. Somebody belts you in. 2. You leave it off. 3. ????
Sharing a seat belt with another?
The plane sits on the ramp for an extra minute and people shift around so that everyone has their own seatbelt and can reach it.
Not possible? Not likely to happen? No DZO in his right mind would do that?
I've seen it happen at SDC Summerfest. More than once.
They made people tighten up the seating, and they had a bunch on one side take off their belt and hand it either forward or back because someone skipped one.
Nov 6, 2011, 6:49 PM
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] Consistancy of aircraft seatbelt usage
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At an NPSL league meet a few years back, I was turning a load to do video for a second team. I landed, dropped my gear with my packer, then tossed on my second rig and ran for the plane that was waiting in the loading area. As I approached the steps leading to the plane I was busy fastening leg straps and checking shit. As soon as my foot hit the first step, I heard the pilot screaming at me… “Don’t you dare get on my aircraft until your fully geared up and checked”!!! I will never forget that verbal assault. …And I mean that in a good way.
Sometimes we just need a reminder. Sometimes, a good swift boot in the ass!
and I got the "whuffo do you put your belt on ??" look 
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