Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Falling out of a Harness

 

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JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Aug 29, 2008, 2:46 PM
Post #76 of 116 (2652 views)
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
or by chance.

>Valinda can take her rig off without undoing anything.

?? So can I. I can get out of my seatbelt and my climbing harness without disconnecting anything as well. I don't see that as a problem.
Unless you're doing freestyle or taking a hard opening in the wrong body position. Then it can be a problem.

Car seatbelts are crap, a huge compromise of comfort and convenience over safety. You won't see F-1 or Nascar using that inertial-locking-shoulder-and-lap crap. Try slipping out of a correctly adjusted 5-point harness. Tongue

Clinbing harnesses? I've got no experience there. But if sport harnesses are so great, why do we tie little pieces of string between little loops on the leeg straps?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Aug 29, 2008, 3:34 PM
Post #77 of 116 (2646 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

>Unless you're doing freestyle or taking a hard opening in the wrong
>body position. Then it can be a problem.

It might indeed be a problem - but thus far has not been.

>Car seatbelts are crap.

You may think them crap, but they work.

>But if sport harnesses are so great, why do we tie little pieces of string
>between little loops on the leeg straps?

So the legstraps don't creep up your legs when you're sitflying.

Now take the opposite approach. Before those little pieces of string, people were still sitflying for decades. And yet no one fell out of their harnesses. Nowadays we have that "piece of string" (bungee actually) that keeps the legstraps where they're more comfy, and thus we have an improvement over the previous system, which still didn't have any problems.

This is not to say that you have to ignore the problem. If it bugs you, find a rig with a solid saddle (that's how they used to make them) and/or do the buttstrap thing. Get a rig with a belly band. Your choice. Personally I will tend to concern myself more with things like hard openings, main parachute malfunctions, cutaway system failures - things that have actually happened.


birdlike  (A License)

Aug 31, 2008, 12:55 AM
Post #78 of 116 (2596 views)
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>But if sport harnesses are so great, why do we tie little pieces of string
>between little loops on the leeg straps?

So the legstraps don't creep up your legs when you're sitflying.

Which is exactly what used to happen to me until I finally got a little piece of elastic to tie on there!

It used to creep me out that the straps would reach my knees when I was in a sloppy, too-tucked sit-fly. Crazy I did not actually fear that forces were about to take the legs straps right up past my feet, but I did not like it, Sam-I-Am!

Now with my handy dandy elastic bandy (from Spishak), that doesn't happen anymore.


clustermagnet  (D License)

Sep 2, 2008, 1:34 PM
Post #79 of 116 (2499 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There has been a good bit of discussion about how a jumper can fall out of a harness lately. Jan Meyer has an article about it, and PhreeZone used to have a video showing his attempt. I'm honest enough to admit that in my time in the sport I had never heard of this accidentally happening so I never gave it major concern. With the recent tragic loss of a tandem passenger and stories of actual accidents and close-calls that have happened on sport rigs, I thought it might help people in my shoes to actually see how easy it can be. So I made two quick videos that show how one could fall out of either 1) the "head hole" while in a track or while headdown, or 2) the "rear hole" while in a sit.

Background: My rig is second hand and thus doesn't fit me perfect. I am aware that my rig (especially the yoke) is a bit too big for me. I also have lost 30 lbs. since I got it. I have put ~400 jumps on this rig and have never had a problem. In each video, I make the straps very tight, just as I do when I jump. The main canopy has been removed because a fallout of the harness would most likely occur on deployment as the main was inflating (and thus out of the container).

Sitfly Video

Tracking/HeadDown Video


I just thought this might be good for awareness. Please keep all comments constructive.
the links dont work, does anyone have the latest video links?


NickDG  (D 8904)

Sep 2, 2008, 2:49 PM
Post #80 of 116 (2481 views)
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Re: [clustermagnet] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Links don't work . . .

NickD Smile


migliore  (D 28383)

Sep 2, 2008, 9:58 PM
Post #81 of 116 (2458 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Updated links...

http://video.google.com/...=6075652443880467365

http://video.google.com/...=5979072227420503131


(This post was edited by migliore on Sep 2, 2008, 9:59 PM)


NickDG  (D 8904)

Sep 3, 2008, 4:50 AM
Post #82 of 116 (2419 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

What makes those vids is the subtle hand gestures you make after the rig comes off.

I always wondered what I do in freefall if that happened to me, now I know . . . Wink

NickD Smile


migliore  (D 28383)

Sep 3, 2008, 5:39 AM
Post #83 of 116 (2398 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't hate on my mad acting skills!


CarloC  (D 252794)

Sep 3, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #84 of 116 (2387 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

LaughLaughLaugh


NickDG  (D 8904)

Sep 3, 2008, 6:48 AM
Post #85 of 116 (2384 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, I watched the vids again, and I'm not entirely sure about this angle but here goes . . .

In freefall, and maybe without really thinking about it, we use our limbs and muscles to stay in the rig. In the video you are purposing using your limbs and muscles to try and come out of the rig. Also, and probably more so, the fact you're standing on the ground gives you some added leverage you won't have in freefall.

For an inverse example, and this may not be a great one, but some years ago on a two-way one of the jumpers left the aircraft without their leg straps on. And even with the other jumper trying to help, they couldn't manage to get them on. Running out of time the legstrap-less jumper had to resort to locking both arms together while the other jumper deployed the pilot chute. But the result was being stripped out of the rig on opening.

What I mean is, comparatively, even though some jumpers need to lean against something, it's easier to put your legstraps on, and do it alone, while on the ground. And that's because of the leverage.

On the other hand in actual freefall in a sit or head down position, if you had a premature deployment and an instant opening I could imagine being shot through either rig hole. But not only would you have to be in one of those positions and have a premature deployment, you'd also have to get an opening shock without first being pulled upright. And the chances of all three of those things occurring in succession is rather slim . . .

NickD Smile


dancy  (B License)

Oct 1, 2008, 10:02 AM
Post #86 of 116 (2255 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


jurgencamps  (D License)

Oct 2, 2008, 3:30 AM
Post #87 of 116 (2148 views)
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Re: [NickDG] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...On the other hand in actual freefall in a sit or head down position, if you had a premature deployment and an instant opening I could imagine being shot through either rig hole. But not only would you have to be in one of those positions and have a premature deployment, you'd also have to get an opening shock without first being pulled upright. And the chances of all three of those things occurring in succession is rather slim . . .
NickD Smile

And do a test. Try to climb out of your gear while your are hanging in your harness. I did this test. I geared up, attached my harness with the 3-ring system to the hanging harness we use for student training.
I know that I have to break my arms (or shoulders) first.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 2, 2008, 3:58 AM
Post #88 of 116 (2141 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...On the other hand in actual freefall in a sit or head down position, if you had a premature deployment and an instant opening I could imagine being shot through either rig hole. But not only would you have to be in one of those positions and have a premature deployment, you'd also have to get an opening shock without first being pulled upright. And the chances of all three of those things occurring in succession is rather slim . . .
NickD Smile

And do a test. Try to climb out of your gear while your are hanging in your harness. I did this test. I geared up, attached my harness with the 3-ring system to the hanging harness we use for student training.
I know that I have to break my arms (or shoulders) first.
Not really. Just set your leg strap loose than you can climb out if you don't have the bungee.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 2, 2008, 10:18 AM
Post #89 of 116 (2057 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

You'd be surprised how much your body can flex during an opening shock in actual FF, as compared to rigidly trying to re-create or "simulate" something on the ground.

As an example - a few weekends ago during a competition event that included doing some actual low-pass hop-n-pop exits, I actually got surprised by a SLAM opening (my canopy usually snivels like a SOB on H&P's!), and I can still see clearly even now, my feet ABOVE MY HEAD in front of me, with my body folded nearly 180' at the hips during the deployment - that I could NEVER, even remotely possibly re-create on the ground.

I'm just not otherwise, that flexible! Tongue


(This post was edited by Scrumpot on Oct 2, 2008, 10:19 AM)


Scrumpot  (D License)

Oct 2, 2008, 10:23 AM
Post #90 of 116 (2051 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

A ground test is probably useful, but still may or may not reveal absolutely ALL the potential iterations of your body position possibilities in freefall. I would have earlier thought like you too, as I do not (routinely) sit-fly either.

See my post just above this one.

Blues,
-Grant


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 2, 2008, 10:32 AM
Post #91 of 116 (2042 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As an example - a few weekends ago during a competition event that included doing some actual low-pass hop-n-pop exits, I actually got surprised by a SLAM opening (my canopy usually snivels like a SOB on H&P's!), and I can still see clearly even now, my feet ABOVE MY HEAD in front of me, with my body folded nearly 180' at the hips during the deployment - that I could NEVER, even remotely possibly re-create on the ground.
What do you want to intruduce me? I got opening when I could kiss me knees.

I just climb in my gear when I take it, so I do know that works on the other way around too.


markbdaniels  (B License)

Oct 24, 2011, 11:07 AM
Post #92 of 116 (1608 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post


Sorry to revive this thread again, but does anyone know where these vids are?


Marksman  (B 7)

Oct 25, 2011, 3:11 PM
Post #93 of 116 (1444 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi all,

Pardon if someone already posted the link below... it also develops on the topic.

http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/fallout.html

blue skies!
Wink


migliore  (D 28383)

Oct 25, 2011, 8:14 PM
Post #94 of 116 (1386 views)
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Re: [markbdaniels] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Re-posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp0wmNoe6ic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxEcVoEZdVs

--Shane


markbdaniels  (B License)

Oct 26, 2011, 3:11 AM
Post #95 of 116 (1331 views)
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Re: [migliore] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks dudes Smile


Divinfool  (C 40922)

Oct 27, 2011, 9:47 AM
Post #96 of 116 (1130 views)
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Re: [markbdaniels] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm amazed how simple that looked to come out of the harness..... Unsure


captain1976  (D 7183)

Oct 29, 2011, 9:36 PM
Post #97 of 116 (1010 views)
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Re: [Divinfool] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm amazed how simple that looked to come out of the harness..... Unsure

A couple of months ago I pulled high to play with my canopy.

While attempting to sit back for the long ride, I noticed I went back a bit farther than I planned.

This bothered me and just last week I installed a similar strap.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 30, 2011, 12:11 AM
Post #98 of 116 (996 views)
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Re: [captain1976] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, Happy Halloween, this thread is back from the dead.

Vskydiver fell out of her harness once, hanging at 2 grand by her knees in the leg straps, just like on the monkey bars. She climbed back up into the rig. I know a lot of people say it can't happen. PM Vskydiver for the details. It'll make you think twice.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 31, 2011, 2:19 PM
Post #99 of 116 (911 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... I can get out of my seatbelt ... without disconnecting anything as well. I don't see that as a problem. ...

Car seatbelts are crap, a huge compromise of comfort and convenience over safety. You won't see F-1 or Nascar using that inertial-locking-shoulder-and-lap crap. Try slipping out of a correctly adjusted 5-point harness. ...
"

.....................................................................

Car seat-belts had to be dumbed-down to match the intelligence of the average car driver.
Given the low intelligence of the average car driver, add fatigue, alcohol, distractions in the form of cell phones, pets, make-up, other traffic, pedestrians, traffic lights, road signs, etc. .... it is a miracle that so few car drivers die!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 31, 2011, 2:25 PM
Post #100 of 116 (910 views)
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Re: [billvon] Falling out of a Harness [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... Before those little pieces of string, people were ... sitflying for decades. And yet no one fell out of their harnesses. ...
"

........................................................................

Maybe in France, but sit-flying only gained popularity - in Southern California - during the mid-1990s. Within a year or two, Rigging Innovations made "free-fly bungees" standard on new production.
Since then, I have retrofitted hundreds of "free-fly bungees" to older harnesses.


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