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Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you....

 

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Marksman  (B 7)

Oct 29, 2011, 5:31 PM
Post #1 of 77 (3760 views)
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Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... Can't Post

Hi there,

I've read and listen to several skydivers comment (on and off the forum) that they do not use skyhook....but i see the majority of this same persons using a steven's connected....
Can anyone please comment on why wouldnt you consider using a technology like skyhook that has some obvious benefits?

Please mind that i am not making any kind of decisions based on your answers, i just want to observe what would be the prevalent opinion in the forum. btw, i prefer to use skyhook.

Thx and blue skies! Wink


(This post was edited by Marksman on Oct 29, 2011, 5:33 PM)


sacex250

Oct 29, 2011, 5:36 PM
Post #2 of 77 (3729 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

1) Because Skyhook isn't available on all rigs.

2) Because an RSL won't release a main riser.


(This post was edited by sacex250 on Oct 29, 2011, 5:38 PM)


tbrown  (D 6533)

Oct 29, 2011, 10:54 PM
Post #3 of 77 (3628 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I recently bought a new rig, my choice being an Infinity system, which does not offer the Skyhook.

I am concerned that the Skyhook can accidently be installed in reverse, which would prevent my reserve pilot chute from launching in the event of a total malfunction. I am concerned that through sheer carelessness, a rigger's loft could accidently use 50 lb. thread instead of the lightweight thread that a Skyhook is supposed to be packed with - again preventing reserve p/c deployment.

From real experience, I am already impressed with how quickly and reliably a traditional RSL worked on the one cutaway I have had, with a different brand rig, where I hit line stretch on my reserve while pulling my reserve handle from its pocket in the harness.

I am also interested in alternate MARD (main assisted reserve deployment) systems being developed by other rig makers. I am especially interested in a system being developed by Velocity Sports, the makers of my Infinity, that uses about $10 worth of harness webbing instead of the Skyhook's hard metal piece. If VSE can get their system TSO'd, I would be very interested in retrofitting my Velocity to use it.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Oct 30, 2011, 12:04 AM
Post #4 of 77 (3608 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If VSE can get their system TSO'd, I would be very interested in retrofitting my Velocity to use it.
Me too. Jerry and Kelly have done a lot of work on this new system and it seems pretty well thought out. As far as your comments on the RSL, I have over 5K jumps and I still leave mine connected. The odds favor the people that do. Cool


Olmed  (B License)

Oct 30, 2011, 4:21 AM
Post #5 of 77 (3580 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am just off my A-sertificate and just ordered a new Vector with skyhook.

I believe in the skyhook system..but if any concern it is about the potential "human factor".

So far I have jumped student rigs with traditional RSL and felt very comfortable with that.

Is it common that a rigger does not have enough knowledge about the skyhook system? And is the skyhook a very fragile system?


(This post was edited by Olmed on Oct 30, 2011, 4:26 AM)


firemedic  (D 29776)

Oct 30, 2011, 8:48 AM
Post #6 of 77 (3493 views)
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Re: [Olmed] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am just off my A-sertificate and just ordered a new Vector with skyhook.

I believe in the skyhook system..but if any concern it is about the potential "human factor".

So far I have jumped student rigs with traditional RSL and felt very comfortable with that.

Is it common that a rigger does not have enough knowledge about the skyhook system? And is the skyhook a very fragile system?

If you've done your research on the Skyhook or RSL or any of the other MARD systems available you'll find many opinions pro and con. The "human factor" when it comes to the proper rigging of the skyhook system is a valid concern but I don't consider it "fragile." There are some steps in the rigging process that must be done correctly in order to make it function as intended. As with any system, the skyhook must be rigged according to the instructions. Any rigger worth his rating always uses the instructions when packing, especially when working with systems he is not thoroughly familiar with. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the skyhook system and when it's time for a repack, ask your rigger to let you watch and show you how the system is put together and how it functions. A good rigger will be more than happy to do that.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Oct 30, 2011, 11:44 AM
Post #7 of 77 (3448 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

>Can anyone please comment on why wouldnt you consider using a technology like
>skyhook that has some obvious benefits?

Because, like all complex systems, it also has drawbacks.


firemedic  (D 29776)

Oct 30, 2011, 12:17 PM
Post #8 of 77 (3435 views)
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Re: [billvon] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Can anyone please comment on why wouldnt you consider using a technology like
>skyhook that has some obvious benefits?

Because, like all complex systems, it also has drawbacks.


I agree with BV and I'd like to add that one specific drawback would be someone who does not want an immediate reserve activation following a cutaway. One such circumstance would be doing CRW and being involved in a canopy entanglement with another jumper.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Oct 30, 2011, 1:52 PM
Post #9 of 77 (3393 views)
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Re: [firemedic] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Disconnect the rsl and your good to go for those types of jumps. only use it for the jumps its going to benefit you on.


For those that feel the skyhook may give you line twists on your opening it may, chances are lower than most think (see video) they have tested it and from the I have seen 10 times more spinning mal cutaway videos with skyhook that have no reserve linetwists then the one cutaway with it that has it.


It's better than the alternative of the one time you cutaway and reach for the main cutaway and need that extra second to pull that and then the reserve because it was a hard handle pull. Last minute of the video is a guy chopping and barely getting the reserve out before smashing in. skyhook would hove been a huge help.


And lets add that in the 6 to 7 times shorter deployment of the reserve with skyhook you have time to deal with the unfortunate line twists should they occur.


The video below should be enough to convince most its worth while to have skyhook, in all cases you can always disconnect the rsl/skyhook connection point to the riser and its not active


For those worried about it being installed properly watch your rigger pack it. Thats the same as worrying the riggger didnt tack the reserve brake lines or pack it properly, simple fix watch the rigger, its a lame excuse. Especially if your concerned your rigger is not doing a quality job you best watch them because your life will depend on it when you cutaway.




http://unitedparachutetechnologies.com/...;id=85&Itemid=70


(This post was edited by jjudd on Oct 30, 2011, 3:39 PM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Oct 30, 2011, 3:36 PM
Post #10 of 77 (3343 views)
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Re: [firemedic] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

"
In reply to:
... As with any system, the skyhook must be rigged according to the instructions. Any rigger worth his rating always uses the instructions when packing, especially when working with systems he is not thoroughly familiar with. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the skyhook system and when it's time for a repack, ask your rigger to let you watch and show you how the system is put together and how it functions. A good rigger will be more than happy to do that.

.........................................................................

Ask the rigger if you can read the manual - while he repacks your reserve.
If he does not have a Skyhook manual, grab your gear and run away screaming!


firemedic  (D 29776)

Oct 30, 2011, 3:41 PM
Post #11 of 77 (3339 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"
In reply to:
... As with any system, the skyhook must be rigged according to the instructions. Any rigger worth his rating always uses the instructions when packing, especially when working with systems he is not thoroughly familiar with. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the skyhook system and when it's time for a repack, ask your rigger to let you watch and show you how the system is put together and how it functions. A good rigger will be more than happy to do that.

.........................................................................

Ask the rigger if you can read the manual - while he repacks your reserve.
If he does not have a Skyhook manual, grab your gear and run away screaming!


+1Laugh


firemedic  (D 29776)

Oct 30, 2011, 3:47 PM
Post #12 of 77 (3335 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Can someone who knows how to do the clicky thing do it with this link to the History of the skyhook. Shows cutaways under spinning mals along with others. Appreciate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY3Gs4XMdKE


jjudd  (D 31065)

Oct 30, 2011, 3:54 PM
Post #13 of 77 (3333 views)
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Re: [firemedic] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY3Gs4XMdKE


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 30, 2011, 7:40 PM
Post #14 of 77 (3262 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Skyhook adds one more level of complexity to the system. A standard RSL adds an increased level of safety with the use of a very simple device. While the Skyhook might save you at 300 feet and then it might not. You can die using either on. My opinion is to go with what you feel you need to have but don't rely on it.

Sparky


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Oct 31, 2011, 7:13 PM
Post #15 of 77 (3071 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the concept but hate the thought that it can release one reserve riser of a good main. That killed the one tandem pair and the one Chicago student lived through dumb luck.

I hasn't heard though that if installed backwards it could keep your reserve from coming out. That's scary. They are complex as f&$@ to rig though I've seen. I can easily see a mistake being made

I'm more a fan of the KISS principle - the more complex a system is the easier it is to screw up. I am curious about th infinity system as well as what any other manufacturer may be coming up with. I don't know anything about them but if they were a simpler setup I would be more interested


jjudd  (D 31065)

Oct 31, 2011, 9:56 PM
Post #16 of 77 (3042 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

That is false except under a total main container lock in which case the rsl tab would have to be disconnected to fix the inproper instalation, and it would only occur if its installed with the hook backwards. Only that scenario. as long as its installed correctly even that is not an issue. Watch the rigger if you cant trust that its done right!!!!!


If it was installed backwards it would not prevent the reserve from firing in any other situation. The hook and thread simply allows the main to break away in the event the reserve pilot chute goes faster than the released main or when just the reserve is fired.


Neither the skyhook or rsl will cause that as long as you do normal emergency procedures aand its installed correctly.


The fear of it being installed wrong again is just as worry some as a rigger forgetting to bar tack your reserve brake lines or properly intall a softlink to your reserve. It should not happen if they do their job


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 31, 2011, 11:02 PM
Post #17 of 77 (3033 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The fear of it being installed wrong again is just as worry some as a rigger forgetting to bar tack your reserve brake lines or properly intall a softlink to your reserve. It should not happen if they do their job

And the more steps involved in any operation increases the chances of one of those steps not being done or being done wrong. Reducing variables is one way of achieving a desired result. Reserves are packed by people not computer directed machines.

Sparky


Deyan  (D 322)

Nov 1, 2011, 12:56 AM
Post #18 of 77 (3017 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The hook and thread simply allows the main to break away in the event the reserve pilot chute goes faster than the released main or when just the reserve is fired.

Don't forged that in the Chicago incident, the reserve PC had 4000ft to create enough drag to release from the hook, but it fail to do so. Without the Skyhook he would have had a two out which is better than the main riser disconnect at 200 ft.

In my opinion every MARD design where the reserve PC need more pull force to break lose from the system, than it can generate from the launching or from the weight of the reserve PC it's a incident waiting to happen.Crazy

I like the simple things. They work best.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 1, 2011, 6:24 AM
Post #19 of 77 (2996 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post


This is better, with Bill Booth's commentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-WBBLAgE_s


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 1, 2011, 6:34 AM
Post #20 of 77 (2990 views)
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Re: [tbrown] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am also interested in alternate MARD (main assisted reserve deployment) systems being developed by other rig makers. I am especially interested in a system being developed by Velocity Sports, the makers of my Infinity, that uses about $10 worth of harness webbing instead of the Skyhook's hard metal piece. If VSE can get their system TSO'd, I would be very interested in retrofitting my Velocity to use it.

Demo here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqxjHOSKTT0


EppyNephrine  (F 111)

Nov 1, 2011, 9:26 AM
Post #21 of 77 (2919 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like the primary concern from most of you folks is human error in rigging the Skyhook by your rigger. Which doesn't really make sense to me if you trust the same rigger to assemble/pack your reserve. Either way, I feel sorry for you folks for having a poor selection of riggers around or just not knowing your rigger/rigger's skills well enough to trust him/her. You are only trusting them with your life, after all.

I am, however, surprised that nobody has mentioned jumping a Skyhook as a video flyer (risk of entanglement on helmet before cutaway). This is really the only issue I would give a second thought about.

Yet, as a video jumper, I use my Skyhook on every jump. Yes, the chance of a Skyhook malfunction does exist, but so does the chance of not getting your reserve out in time, or not being able to find the 2nd handle, etc... Like someone mentioned, odds tend to favor those with RSLs. And anywhere that I can increase my positive odds, I'll take it.


(This post was edited by EppyNephrine on Nov 1, 2011, 9:28 AM)


EppyNephrine  (F 111)

Nov 1, 2011, 9:31 AM
Post #22 of 77 (2916 views)
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Re: [EppyNephrine] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, and one more thing. If you are worried about your rigger's abilities, ship the goddamn thing off to UPT's workshop to have it done by the folks who made it. It's a one time assembly, and reserve repacks are two times a year. Given that it is your life we are talking about, 2-3 weeks for maintenance to your rig and a little extra $$ for shipping shouldn't be a concern.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 1, 2011, 11:00 AM
Post #23 of 77 (2881 views)
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Re: [EppyNephrine] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sounds like the primary concern from most of you folks is human error
>in rigging the Skyhook by your rigger. Which doesn't really make sense to me if
>you trust the same rigger to assemble/pack your reserve.

?? Human error happens in all walks of life. The more complex you make a procedure, the more likely that error is.

>Either way, I feel sorry for you folks for having a poor selection of riggers
>around or just not knowing your rigger/rigger's skills well enough to trust
>him/her.

Well, the corollary to that would be:

"I feel sorry for the people who worship their rigger so much that they cannot imagine them ever being human and making a mistake."

All riggers make mistakes; the best of them make them infrequently and usually catch them before the rig goes out. None are perfect.


billbooth  (D 3546)

Nov 1, 2011, 11:35 AM
Post #24 of 77 (2872 views)
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Re: [Marksman] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

When I came out with the hand deployed pilot chute, a lot of people argued that is was more complex than a ripcord, and this complexity wasn't worth the couple of hundred feet it saved on deployment. The same argument was made for the 3 ring release, believe it or not. For a long time people opposed AAD's because they might open your reserve when you didn't want or need it.

Each of these safety improvements were opposed by people who thought skydiving gear was good enough, so why try to make it better. I think history has shown the critics wrong on all of the above counts, and I believe it will also find them wrong about the Skyhook. The Skyhook has been installed on over 15,000 rigs now, with millions of jumps logged, and quite frankly, it has had far fewer problems than any of the above mentioned safety advances.

I guess you could even argue that ram air parachutes are a bad idea because hardly anyone ever died under a fully open and functioning round, while fully half of the last few years fatalities have been under fully open and functioning squares.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Nov 2, 2011, 11:16 AM
Post #25 of 77 (2765 views)
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Re: [billbooth] Skyhook & RSL's. Its up to you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, Throw out pilot chutes don’t save “a couple of hundred feet” feet over spring loads. That’s absurd!
There isn’t 300 feet to save within the function of the pilot chute, or shouldn’t be. If you are talking about “Burble”, then talk about “Burble”. We all know “Burble” affects both spring load and hand deploy equally, dependant upon body position. The Throw outs are simpler and easier to pack, not more complex. Spring loaded pilot chutes have proven to be faster over the years. If Hand Deploy “saved altitude on deployment” we would be using it on all of our reserves. Only in Australia has this been tried and incidentally, rejected! But you know all that.


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